Possible Adoption

[Cerberus]

To all forum members,

I seldom ask this forum for many questions. Most of what is published is easily understood, and generally requires a bit of expertise with the government red tape. However, I have been placed into a particular "dicey" situation.

I will give a brief background. I have a niece–in-law who is 9 years going on 10 years old. I have met the child and she is very clever and bright. She and I fell for each other. I have a personal affinity with little girls and their beauty. My heart opens up. What they wish for! They get! However, there were the usual language constraints! Etc, etc.

The child has a father, who is the proverbial “black-sheep” of the family!” Hasn’t held any job more than six months, moves from place to place. The mother departed from the scene, almost 5 years previous. The child is generally staying with my mother-in-law (Alice’s mother). Everyone pitches in and does their part. Alice and I are the same. We are sending money to help with a study tutor and a private English tutor on a monthly basis. My niece wanted to learn English so that she could impress me!

My wife wants and I also have discussed and agreed to adopt the child. We want the child in the US. I want the child schooled in Mandarin language and customs and have a college Assoc Professor willing to provide services. My wife wants her niece trained in all Western cultural aspects to make a better life for her. This is not a problem, with the exception of overburdening the child! This will call for extra ice cream!

Our problem when we began researching was the excerpt from USCIS site. I know that she definitely doesn’t fall into the “orphan” classification! The two-year stipulation causes not undue amount of problems. I quote:

Adoption
Adopting children from all over the world has steadily increased in the past decade. Over 20,000 inter-country adoptions are taking place per year in addition to the more than 200,000 foreign-adopted children already living in the U.S. The Department of Homeland Security - U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) is proud to play a key role in the inter-country adoption process.
Prospective adoptive parents are encouraged to familiarize themselves with inter-country adoption processes before they begin filing applications for a particular child. A good place to start is with the booklet, The Immigration of Adopted and Prospective Adopted Children.
Prospective adoptive parents may find the services of an adoption agency helpful for guidance and assistance with the immigration of orphans and adopted children. While USCIS cannot recommend specific agencies, we strongly advise prospective adoptive parents to seek out a reputable agency with established foreign adoption experience and/or competent legal representation in their efforts to bring foreign-born orphans into the United States. One place to start looking for an agency is through the adoption advocacy community.
There are two legal ways to bring an adopted child into the country. Please review the differences, as they are important to your successful adoption.
· Immigration/Adoption of child based on 2-years residence through submitting Form I-130: If you adopt a child before the child turns 16 (or 18, as described below), and you live with the child for two years as the child’s primary caregiver, then you may file an I-130 petition for an alien relative. The petition may be filed after the 16th (or 18th if a sibling) birthday, and the two years may culminate after the 16th (or 18th) birthday. (Please note that, generally, all qualifying criteria must be established BEFORE the child may enter the U.S.)
· Immigration/Adoption of an orphan through submitting Form I-600: If you adopt or intend to adopt a child who meets the legal definition of an orphan, you may petition for that child at any time prior to the child’s 16th (or 18th, as described below) birthday, even if the adoption takes place subsequently (and in certain cases, the adoption does not occur until the child comes to the US).
If you are interested in adopting a child from a particular country, we suggest that you consult the Department of State Website web pages addressing Country-Specific Adoption and Important Notices.
These materials alert prospective adoptive parents to conditions that may develop or already exist in foreign adoption cases. International adoption is essentially a private legal matter between a private individual (or couple) who wishes to adopt, and a foreign court, which operates under that country's laws and regulations. U.S. authorities cannot intervene on behalf of prospective parents with the courts in the country where the adoption takes place. The adoption of a foreign-born orphan does not automatically guarantee the child's eligibility to immigrate to the United States. Also, the adoptive parent needs to be aware of U.S. immigration law and legal regulatory procedures. An orphan cannot legally immigrate to the United States without USCIS processing.
Adopting Older Children - “Aging Out” of Eligibility to Immigrate Through Adoption.
If you are considering adopting an older child, you should be aware of the age limits on eligibility for adoptions and immigration, regardless of whether or not your state laws permit the adoption of older children (or even adults).
US law allows the adoption and immigration of children who are under 16 years of age, with two exceptions:
· Biological siblings of a child adopted by the same parents may be adopted if under 18 years of age; and
· Orphans over the age of 16 may be adopted, as long as the I-600 petition was filed on their behalf before their 16th birthday (or in the case of an orphan who is the sibling of a child adopted by the same parents, before their 18th birthday).

 

Alice and I are optimists and both are stubborn as ten types of bull. Both pf us will pound their own heads on the proverbial wall until it comes down or we arew dead! I believe that there is an “out” for every situation! My questions:

1) Is there a way around this law from USCIS?
2) Is this a “doable” proposition?
3) What are the questions that I should be asking from the proverbial “good” attorney? < Please don’t worry. Now an attorney will be consulted! >
4) Money! How important an issue is it? I have more than enough to cover 4 people immigrating to the US! However, I would like to know what questions they will ask. I disdain unprepared people.
5) Are both of the child’s parent’s signatures required? I know that his ex-wife is living. Unfortunately, her situation is more than a bit “fluid” and her whereabouts are tentative at best.
6) WHAT HAVE I MISSED? I need new thought lines and approaches please!

I should also mention that the child does not know what is happening around her right now! The family is in full agreement to the adoption. The father is willing to sign the papers! As I said the mother is out of the scene! However, I seriously wonder whether she could be the “fly in the ointment!”

Alice and cannot have children due to my turning myself into a gelding, 3 years previous to my meeting her! Right now, I have Alice, and a mentally challenged/deranged Jack Russell Terrier that she adopted and the prospect of a loving child!

Please serious replies. I need options and new avenues of thought.

Thanks to all in advance.

Dave and Alice

 

[SirLancelot]

First off, I have never adopted so I'm just a by stander offering some input. These are just my initial thoughts as a bystander. I stand corrected by anyone who has gone through this process and knows better.

 

A few thoughts:

 

1) Regarding money. Be well prepared. Adoption agencies generally don't place children into families who are just a little bit above poverty line. They seem to place children into solidly middle to upper middle class families.

 

2) Who has custody of this child? Does the father have full custody? If not, I can't see a court allowing this adoption without her consent. Unless full custody is awarded to the father, I just can't see any court giving her child away for adoption without the birth mother's complete consent.

 

3) I don't think you should be as concerned with USCIS policies as much as you should be concerned with Chinese laws, rules, and regulations regarding adoption when both parents are alive. It seems to me you need a Chinese lawyer specializing in adoptions in China at this stage of the process, not an US immigration lawyer in the States just yet.

 

Again, I'm just a bystander offering some initial thoughts. I stand corrected if someone whose gone through this states otherwise.

 

Good luck.

 

Alice and I are optimists and both are stubborn as ten types of bull. Both pf us will pound their own heads on the proverbial wall until it comes down or we arew dead! I believe that there is an ¡°out¡± for every situation! My questions:

 

1) Is there a way around this law from USCIS?

2) Is this a ¡°doable¡± proposition?

3) What are the questions that I should be asking from the proverbial ¡°good¡± attorney? < Please don¡¯t worry. Now an attorney will be consulted! >

4) Money! How important an issue is it? I have more than enough to cover 4 people immigrating to the US! However, I would like to know what questions they will ask. I disdain unprepared people.

5) Are both of the child¡¯s parent¡¯s signatures required? I know that his ex-wife is living. Unfortunately, her situation is more than a bit ¡°fluid¡± and her whereabouts are tentative at best.

6) WHAT HAVE I MISSED? I need new thought lines and approaches please!

 

I should also mention that the child does not know what is happening around her right now! The family is in full agreement to the adoption. The father is willing to sign the papers! As I said the mother is out of the scene! However, I seriously wonder whether she could be the ¡°fly in the ointment!¡±

 

Edited November 7, 2006 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[C4Racer]

Dave,

 

I have been researching this subject some because we are in the same situation. My wife would like to bring her nephew to live with us. She feels he would have a better chance at life in the US. So in our case the orphan part is definately out because he lives with both parents.

 

In reading your situation though, you just might have possible chance to still have the child viewed as an orphan.

 

Here is the USCIS definition of an orphan:

Under U.S. immigration law, an orphan is a foreign child who does not have any parents because of the death or disappearance of, abandonment or desertion by, or separation or loss from, both parents. An orphan can also be a foreign-born child with a sole or surviving parent who is unable to provide for the child¡¯s basic needs, consistent with the local standards of the foreign sending country, and has, in writing, irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption.

 

Correct me if I have read your situation wrong, but since the child has been abandoned by the mother, the only part to prove is the father is unable to care for the child by local standards. It doesn't seem to matter reading the content of the law that other family members are available. I am very unclear if they could use them to help establish living standards for the child or not.

 

 

However, in the same breathe they do state this in the same area

Intra-Familial Adoptions

Prospective adoptive parents wishing to adopt a family member may encounter problems that are not found in other adoption cases. Most will find it difficult to prove that the child meets the definition of an orphan under U.S. immigration law.

As stated previously, a child is a orphan only if the sole or surviving parent is unable to care for the child properly according to the standards of the country where the parent and child reside and has, in writing, irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption; or if the child has been abandoned or deserted by, separated or lost from, both parents, or if both parents have disappeared or died.

Additional documentation is required to verify the claim of abandonment, desertion, separation from both parents or that both parents have disappeared or died.

Once the child has been irrevocably released by the natural parents, the parents can never gain any immigration benefit through the child.

 

 

Other than this, I have yet to find anyway around this law with USCIS. This is the most important part, because even if you do succeed in the adoption in China, USCIS could still deny a visa.

 

We are taking a trip in April to research this very issue. If we find out any other information we will let you know.

 

Mike and Lisa

[Cerberus]

First off, I have never adopted so I'm just a by stander offering some input. These are just my initial thoughts as a bystander. I stand corrected by anyone who has gone through this process and knows better.

 

A few thoughts:

 

1) Regarding money. Be well prepared. Adoption agencies generally don't place children into families who are just a little bit above poverty line. They seem to place children into solidly middle to upper middle class families.

 

2) Who has custody of this child? Does the father have full custody? If not, I can't see a court allowing this adoption without her consent. Unless full custody is awarded to the father, I just can't see any court giving her child away for adoption without the birth mother's complete consent.

 

3) I don't think you should be as concerned with USCIS policies as much as you should be concerned with Chinese laws, rules, and regulations regarding adoption when both parents are alive. It seems to me you need a Chinese lawyer specializing in adoptions in China at this stage of the process, not an US immigration lawyer in the States just yet.

 

Again, I'm just a bystander offering some initial thoughts. I stand corrected if someone whose gone through this states otherwise.

 

Good luck.

 

Alice and I are optimists and both are stubborn as ten types of bull. Both pf us will pound their own heads on the proverbial wall until it comes down or we arew dead! I believe that there is an ¡°out¡± for every situation! My questions:

 

1) Is there a way around this law from USCIS?

2) Is this a ¡°doable¡± proposition?

3) What are the questions that I should be asking from the proverbial ¡°good¡± attorney? < Please don¡¯t worry. Now an attorney will be consulted! >

4) Money! How important an issue is it? I have more than enough to cover 4 people immigrating to the US! However, I would like to know what questions they will ask. I disdain unprepared people.

5) Are both of the child¡¯s parent¡¯s signatures required? I know that his ex-wife is living. Unfortunately, her situation is more than a bit ¡°fluid¡± and her whereabouts are tentative at best.

6) WHAT HAVE I MISSED? I need new thought lines and approaches please!

 

I should also mention that the child does not know what is happening around her right now! The family is in full agreement to the adoption. The father is willing to sign the papers! As I said the mother is out of the scene! However, I seriously wonder whether she could be the ¡°fly in the ointment!¡±

 

Lancelot

 

In regard to your questions,

 

1) $50,000 base a year, with additional funds from home in China and ranch in US.

2) Father has full custody. However, I suspect he has custody only in the letter of the law since Mother fled. By a "official" court? This I doubt. Very good point, you make!

3) This is a thought that I hadn't covered. Attorneys may be need in both continents.

 

No harm in your comments and your being new here in this forum. This was the ¡°Free Association¡± that I was looking for and trying to find other options

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Cerberus]

Dave,

 

I have been researching this subject some because we are in the same situation. My wife would like to bring her nephew to live with us. She feels he would have a better chance at life in the US. So in our case the orphan part is definately out because he lives with both parents.

 

In reading your situation though, you just might have possible chance to still have the child viewed as an orphan.

 

Here is the USCIS definition of an orphan:

Under U.S. immigration law, an orphan is a foreign child who does not have any parents because of the death or disappearance of, abandonment or desertion by, or separation or loss from, both parents. An orphan can also be a foreign-born child with a sole or surviving parent who is unable to provide for the child¡¯s basic needs, consistent with the local standards of the foreign sending country, and has, in writing, irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption.

 

Correct me if I have read your situation wrong, but since the child has been abandoned by the mother, the only part to prove is the father is unable to care for the child by local standards. It doesn't seem to matter reading the content of the law that other family members are available. I am very unclear if they could use them to help establish living standards for the child or not.

 

 

However, in the same breathe they do state this in the same area

Intra-Familial Adoptions

Prospective adoptive parents wishing to adopt a family member may encounter problems that are not found in other adoption cases. Most will find it difficult to prove that the child meets the definition of an orphan under U.S. immigration law.

As stated previously, a child is a orphan only if the sole or surviving parent is unable to care for the child properly according to the standards of the country where the parent and child reside and has, in writing, irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption; or if the child has been abandoned or deserted by, separated or lost from, both parents, or if both parents have disappeared or died.

Additional documentation is required to verify the claim of abandonment, desertion, separation from both parents or that both parents have disappeared or died.

Once the child has been irrevocably released by the natural parents, the parents can never gain any immigration benefit through the child.

 

 

Other than this, I have yet to find anyway around this law with USCIS. This is the most important part, because even if you do succeed in the adoption in China, USCIS could still deny a visa.

 

We are taking a trip in April to research this very issue. If we find out any other information we will let you know.

 

Mike and Lisa

Mike

 

Excellent reply sounds like our situation are almost identical. As I replied to SirLancelot and your statement:

 

Intra-Familial Adoptions

Prospective adoptive parents wishing to adopt a family member may encounter problems that are not found in other adoption cases. Most will find it difficult to prove that the child meets the definition of an orphan under U.S. immigration law.

As stated previously, a child is a orphan only if the sole or surviving parent is unable to care for the child properly according to the standards of the country where the parent and child reside and has, in writing, irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption; or if the child has been abandoned or deserted by, separated or lost from, both parents, or if both parents have disappeared or died.

Additional documentation is required to verify the claim of abandonment, desertion, separation from both parents or that both parents have disappeared or died.

Once the child has been irrevocably released by the natural parents, the parents can never gain any immigration benefit through the child.

 

This will call for attorneys on both sides of the ocean. Father can't provide. However, from your statement, it sounds like I have to prove it in a Chinese court. This is definitely a loss of guangxi! He will sign the papers tight now. A court? This raises new perspectives and issues! Mom I am sure is in parts unknown among 1.5 billion people in China somewhere. There has been, as far as I know zero contact with her.

 

Crap! What is the propensity that I have, to take on the largest and stickiest legal issues?

 

However, your insight is gratefully accepted and thanked for. This entire situation was one that made me decide to leave my niece outside of the loop, until I knew exactly where I was going and what had to be done. The legal issues here in this situation make a K1/K3/CR1 visa in GUZ, seem like a walk through the proverbial park!

 

Mike, if you do find anything, if would be gratefully appreciated. As of late, I have no trips to China scheduled. Alice was going herself. This situation probably would definitely require both of us there.

 

Again, my sincere thanks.

 

Dave

[sleepless in Houston&CQ]

Being a Texican I can't offer you any advise

But do wish you and Alice good luck,

Oh and spoil the hell out of this little girl!

 

Bobby/Emma

[Dean Hall]

Dave,

 

Well, I spent the month of September in China begining this process with almost the same things going on.

 

First, we wanted to adopt one of the nieces, virtually abandoned, and left for the ageing grandparents to raise.

 

The remaining parent (absentee parent - I have actually seen the 9 year old niece more than her own mother) signed the child over to us on paper with the red inked thumbprint and all.

 

Then we traveled to Chongqing where the actual papers of the child were.

 

We traveled from office to office being guided by well intentioned but clueless officials as to what we were to do. Finally arrived at the correct adoptive office.

 

After an hour or so of chit chat and explaining, we were told we could not adopt the child at that place at that time.

 

The lady in charge told us to go back to the states and do the adoption process there, and when that was complete, that the Chinese officials would rubber stamp anything that the US adoption agency agreed to.

 

I was totally confused by this time.

 

On the way out, I met some adoptive parents on the way out who gave me the address of the agency in Texas who helped get the China baby.

 

I am now in the process of calling them to see what they know about all of this.

 

I know that this has been not much help, only to prepare you to expect the most unexpected things.

 

I wish now that we had just started with a Chinese lawyer. However the family in China was not at all for doing that. Now I wish I had insisted.

 

My biggest regret is the time I am missing with my nieces. By the time we figure this out, they will probably be half way thru high school.

[Cerberus]

Dave,

 

Well, I spent the month of September in China begining this process with almost the same things going on.

 

First, we wanted to adopt one of the nieces, virtually abandoned, and left for the ageing grandparents to raise.

 

The remaining parent (absentee parent - I have actually seen the 9 year old niece more than her own mother) signed the child over to us on paper with the red inked thumbprint and all.

 

Then we traveled to Chongqing where the actual papers of the child were.

 

We traveled from office to office being guided by well intentioned but clueless officials as to what we were to do. Finally arrived at the correct adoptive office.

 

After an hour or so of chit chat and explaining, we were told we could not adopt the child at that place at that time.

 

The lady in charge told us to go back to the states and do the adoption process there, and when that was complete, that the Chinese officials would rubber stamp anything that the US adoption agency agreed to.

 

I was totally confused by this time.

 

On the way out, I met some adoptive parents on the way out who gave me the address of the agency in Texas who helped get the China baby.

 

I am now in the process of calling them to see what they know about all of this.

 

I know that this has been not much help, only to prepare you to expect the most unexpected things.

 

I wish now that we had just started with a Chinese lawyer. However the family in China was not at all for doing that. Now I wish I had insisted.

 

My biggest regret is the time I am missing with my nieces. By the time we figure this out, they will probably be half way thru high school.

Dean,

 

I haven't heard from you for a long time! I remember when I came on board at CFL. I read many of your postings. It is good to see the old-timer's still monitor the board. I hope that both of you're lives are proceeding happily!

 

I just got home and read Don's advice. Sounds like very solid advice and mirror¡¯s exactly what you just posted. I searched the web and many sites also recommended seeing Adoption Agencies, to help and guide a person through the paperwork! More than a bit, confusing here. Obviously, a lot of research will be needed on my part.

 

Let me PM, you when I return from a business trip to Ontario. I will keep monitoring as best as I can.

 

Again, good to see and hear you again. My best wishes to your wife and yourself.

 

Dave

[Cerberus]

Just a thought, but it seems like the first step is the adoption. Get a Chinese attorney to handle that so that under Chinese law, you an wife ecome the legal parents of the niece.

 

Once that's done, time to take on USCIS. This is where you will want a good immigration attorney well experienced in these types of cases. In fact, it wouldn't hurt to have the US attorney's recommendations on any sticky items for the adoption.

 

I do think this is doable.

Don,

 

I agree in regard to the attorney advice. This just seems to be inevitable.

 

The problem that I was worrying about, was carrying on the adoption to final conclusion, and then have GUZ and/or USCIS slam the door in my face. That was one reason that I have been obtuse to the little girl. I don't want to build hopes up, and then have her world crash because of a bunch of "pen pushers." Now this, will Piss Me Off! I am slow to anger. However, once I am pissed or crapped on; May God himself have mercy on them.

 

As a side note, it seems that more than one person has the same problem. Would be willing or able to front in GUZ Speaks? Far as I knew, only moderators can post or ask in this forum? Is this a viable option?

 

The next problem is the true mother, signature and her not turning ME and her daughter into a "pot of gold!" Crap! Will this be more than the average migraine!

 

Again, my thanks Don for the solid advice. My thanks for also picking up my spirits and giving hope to a dream many months away!

 

Dave

[Cerberus]

Being a Texican I can't offer you any advise

But do wish you and Alice good luck,

Oh and spoil the hell out of this little girl!

 

Bobby/Emma

Thanks Bobby. However, I would then have two Chinese trainers! One young! One old!

At least the young one, would have a smaller mop to use on me! ROFLMAO!

 

Damn! I feel like a father already. Perhaps more overtime is the answer. Just leave money on the table for the ladies! LOL

 

Dave

[Cerberus]

Dave, I was thinking about this last night. It seems to me that you being an adopting parent kicks in a lot of red tape in both countries. I kinda remember prospective parents having to go through some kind of Chinese red tape about clearances and such.

 

This is why I think using both a Chinese and a US immigration attorney in concert makes more sense. Is it possible for only your wife to adopt the niece? I suspect that would be much easier to do under Chinese law. Once that relationship is established, she becomes your step child. then it's just a matter of filing an I-130. I think it is way too late for any follow to join rights.

 

If you are an adopting parent, the part that kicks in is the automatic naturalization of the niece as a US citizen and I think that would be a longer, more complex road.

 

The downside of my notion would be that the child would be your step child. It seems that she would have to wait 5 years before she could naturalize as well - not sure about piggy backing the naturalization route with Alice.

 

There is another member here (sorry, can't remember who) that just did something like this. His lady adopted a child and I believe the child was able to coat-tail even though the adoption took place after the initial petition was filed. There may be something over in GUZ Speaks?

 

Anyway, this is just another idea that may or may not have merit. I'd certainly check out all possibilities before making a decision and that means a few bucks for attorney fees. Who knows, maybe the attorney will have brilliant recomendation?

Don,

 

I know that you have NOTHING else to do, besides think of this problem! LOL! Thanks for the comment. Pease apologize to Minx for me. Also, my sincere gratitude, thanks and appreciation are extended to both of you. Had a small change of plans. I will be leaving for Ontario on Friday! Crap! I hate delays!

 

¡°Is it possible for only your wife to adopt the niece? I suspect that would be much easier to do under Chinese law. Once that relationship is established, she becomes your step child. then it's just a matter of filing an I-130. I think it is way too late for any follow to join rights.¡±

 

Not a problem in the least. I ran the idea past Alice. However, I know her very well; She agreed! I also agree with the statement of ¡°join¡± rights. This time passed about 2 years ago. If I even tried it, I would be laughed out of GUZ. Justifiably so, I might add!

 

The downside of my notion would be that the child would be your step child. It seems that she would have to wait 5 years before she could naturalize as well - not sure about piggy backing the naturalization route with Alice.¡±

 

Stepchild won¡¯t be a problem! There is enough love to go around for adopted or stepchild. This is just another label that society put on a relationship, to define the child¡¯s exact relationship in the particular social position, which the child exists in and holds in the social strata of a particular society. In other words, and stated more eloquently and bluntly; Who gives a rat¡¯s ass? A child, is a child, is a child! The important thing to remember is that a child needs discipline, education and lots of love. Most especially, education and love! Not titles and classifications.

 

Anyway, this is just another idea that may or may not have merit. I'd certainly check out all possibilities before making a decision and that means a few bucks for attorney fees. Who knows, maybe the attorney will have brilliant recomendation?¡±

 

With this statement I fully agree. In the middle of our conversation, and the typing of this response, Alice and I discussed your idea. She wholeheartedly agrees with your premises and recommendations. I list as follows and a new update: for you and other members:

 

1) Under Chinese law there is a stipulation when a parent abandons a child (e.g no support) the child is surrendered to the sole parent. (This was information as taken from a practicing attorney, not a specialist! Two years have passed and he has sole custody. Therefore, one hurdle has passed of announcing in Chinese papers of a pending adoption and satisfying a court!

 

2) Alice loved you¡¯re idea of bypassing the "wall at GUZ" by having me, not only sponsoring a 129F (K3 marriage visa, her¡¯s), have a second visa (k4) started with her as the adoptive mother. Is this correct? The I-864 will not be a problem in the least.

 

3) This idea has extreme merit. If I did the visa under K3 guidelines, it would turned down flat, for fraud! Nobody forgets a child on the first application! Ergo, I cannot tie her (child) to the original visa.

 

However, Alice returning to China, adopting the niece and then reapplying again, with me as the sponsor is brilliant! I did not lie. Alice has full access to leave and return to the US. Alice is still officially classified as a Chinese citizen. China government (with a bit of ¡°gentle¡° persuasion) will grant the adoption. The father will willingly surrender rights! Mother is ¡°out ¡° of the picture (court has grantd father sole custody and rights. Just found out tonight. ) My wife the adoptive parent, returning to China to do so, will convince GUZ of sincerity on both of our parts, and this is not a scam! Of course we are very sincere, in this effort. However, I will not break the law. Maybe, ¡°bend¡± it slightly!

 

After all! A child¡¯s life is at stake!

 

Thanks for the insight I was looking for! The tunnel vision is quickly expanding!

 

Give Alice¡¯s and my best regards to Minx.

 

Dave

[SirLancelot]

Good luck. Wish you two the best.

 

Keep this forum posted of the results.

 

Dave, I was thinking about this last night. It seems to me that you being an adopting parent kicks in a lot of red tape in both countries. I kinda remember prospective parents having to go through some kind of Chinese red tape about clearances and such.

 

This is why I think using both a Chinese and a US immigration attorney in concert makes more sense. Is it possible for only your wife to adopt the niece? I suspect that would be much easier to do under Chinese law. Once that relationship is established, she becomes your step child. then it's just a matter of filing an I-130. I think it is way too late for any follow to join rights.

 

If you are an adopting parent, the part that kicks in is the automatic naturalization of the niece as a US citizen and I think that would be a longer, more complex road.

 

The downside of my notion would be that the child would be your step child. It seems that she would have to wait 5 years before she could naturalize as well - not sure about piggy backing the naturalization route with Alice.

 

There is another member here (sorry, can't remember who) that just did something like this. His lady adopted a child and I believe the child was able to coat-tail even though the adoption took place after the initial petition was filed. There may be something over in GUZ Speaks?

 

Anyway, this is just another idea that may or may not have merit. I'd certainly check out all possibilities before making a decision and that means a few bucks for attorney fees. Who knows, maybe the attorney will have brilliant recomendation?

Don,

 

I know that you have NOTHING else to do, besides think of this problem! LOL! Thanks for the comment. Pease apologize to Minx for me. Also, my sincere gratitude, thanks and appreciation are extended to both of you. Had a small change of plans. I will be leaving for Ontario on Friday! Crap! I hate delays!

 

¡°Is it possible for only your wife to adopt the niece? I suspect that would be much easier to do under Chinese law. Once that relationship is established, she becomes your step child. then it's just a matter of filing an I-130. I think it is way too late for any follow to join rights.¡±

 

Not a problem in the least. I ran the idea past Alice. However, I know her very well; She agreed! I also agree with the statement of ¡°join¡± rights. This time passed about 2 years ago. If I even tried it, I would be laughed out of GUZ. Justifiably so, I might add!

 

The downside of my notion would be that the child would be your step child. It seems that she would have to wait 5 years before she could naturalize as well - not sure about piggy backing the naturalization route with Alice.¡±

 

Stepchild won¡¯t be a problem! There is enough love to go around for adopted or stepchild. This is just another label that society put on a relationship, to define the child¡¯s exact relationship in the particular social position, which the child exists in and holds in the social strata of a particular society. In other words, and stated more eloquently and bluntly; Who gives a rat¡¯s ass? A child, is a child, is a child! The important thing to remember is that a child needs discipline, education and lots of love. Most especially, education and love! Not titles and classifications.

 

Anyway, this is just another idea that may or may not have merit. I'd certainly check out all possibilities before making a decision and that means a few bucks for attorney fees. Who knows, maybe the attorney will have brilliant recomendation?¡±

 

With this statement I fully agree. In the middle of our conversation, and the typing of this response, Alice and I discussed your idea. She wholeheartedly agrees with your premises and recommendations. I list as follows and a new update: for you and other members:

 

1) Under Chinese law there is a stipulation when a parent abandons a child (e.g no support) the child is surrendered to the sole parent. (This was information as taken from a practicing attorney, not a specialist! Two years have passed and he has sole custody. Therefore, one hurdle has passed of announcing in Chinese papers of a pending adoption and satisfying a court!

 

2) Alice loved you¡¯re idea of bypassing the "wall at GUZ" by having me, not only sponsoring a 129F (K3 marriage visa, her¡¯s), have a second visa (k4) started with her as the adoptive mother. Is this correct? The I-864 will not be a problem in the least.

 

3) This idea has extreme merit. If I did the visa under K3 guidelines, it would turned down flat, for fraud! Nobody forgets a child on the first application! Ergo, I cannot tie her (child) to the original visa.

 

However, Alice returning to China, adopting the niece and then reapplying again, with me as the sponsor is brilliant! I did not lie. Alice has full access to leave and return to the US. Alice is still officially classified as a Chinese citizen. China government (with a bit of ¡°gentle¡° persuasion) will grant the adoption. The father will willingly surrender rights! Mother is ¡°out ¡° of the picture (court has grantd father sole custody and rights. Just found out tonight. ) My wife the adoptive parent, returning to China to do so, will convince GUZ of sincerity on both of our parts, and this is not a scam! Of course we are very sincere, in this effort. However, I will not break the law. Maybe, ¡°bend¡± it slightly!

 

After all! A child¡¯s life is at stake!

 

Thanks for the insight I was looking for! The tunnel vision is quickly expanding!

 

Give Alice¡¯s and my best regards to Minx.

 

Dave