Cultural Differences

[lostinblue]

Something that may come into play is since the child is a USC it is common that the other parent sign a notarized statement giving permission for the child to be taken out of the country. This came about due to custody battles and getting the child out of the reach of a US court.

 

You might look into this one as it may drive the entire decission.

228051[/snapback]

Here is something to look at http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/minors/minors_834.html I think the father has more rights than most people think and a lawyer should be involved as to what the law would say. There is even grand parents rights involved in the fathers situation.

[Dennis143]

Having posted a similar sibling dilemma, with Leiqin¡¦s 22 year old son, I now realize that I am helpless in trying to convey my logic of her son taking on adult responsibility to her. I have tried to rationally explain, through our interpreter friend, Mary, how in the long run; not helping can often be the best helping hand. But, this concept of tough-love cannot be grasped. It seems to me, their role is to care for their children and their children¡¦s children until they are too old to provide shelter, aid, comfort and then it becomes the role of the children to care for their aged parents. I have given up and resigned myself to continue to send her son money, no matter what, and hope that someday he will be there to help us if we should ever need it, as Leiqin will often assure me.

* * *

It is interesting how early on in our marriage Leiqin would often suggest that we have a child so that she could give it to her sister in China.

Edited July 1, 2006 by Dennis143 (see edit history)

[Guest pushbrk]

Something that may come into play is since the child is a USC it is common that the other parent sign a notarized statement giving permission for the child to be taken out of the country. This came about due to custody battles and getting the child out of the reach of a US court.

 

You might look into this one as it may drive the entire decission.

228051[/snapback]

Here is something to look at http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/minors/minors_834.html I think the father has more rights than most people think and a lawyer should be involved as to what the law would say. There is even grand parents rights involved in the fathers situation.

228056[/snapback]

Yes, both parents must give permission for passport issuance but not for travel.

[frank1538]

Something that may come into play is since the child is a USC it is common that the other parent sign a notarized statement giving permission for the child to be taken out of the country. This came about due to custody battles and getting the child out of the reach of a US court.

 

You might look into this one as it may drive the entire decission.

228051[/snapback]

Here is something to look at http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/minors/minors_834.html I think the father has more rights than most people think and a lawyer should be involved as to what the law would say. There is even grand parents rights involved in the fathers situation.

228056[/snapback]

Yes, both parents must give permission for passport issuance but not for travel.

228062[/snapback]

David already has his passport, and it's got an expired Chinese visa in it to boot. Jingwen, KK, and the baby went to China a while back, and I eventually joined them.

[frank1538]

Frank, quite a dilema you have there. I guess the only thing that makes sense to me is to do as someone suggested and make your thoughts known. Then, let wife and daughter decide - and live with it.

 

Forcing responsibility on KK won't work; she's not ready for it. That leaves your wife taking care of David. To me, that's not an ideal sitution.

 

If the child goes to China until he is ready for school, it will be a real plus for the family and the kid. He'll end up multi-cultual and bi-lingual. I guess I see more downside with him staying here. Sorry.

228085[/snapback]

There are a lot of good reasons why he should go, most I think related to his well being. I'm just afraid his mother will remain totally dependent on Jingwen. I'm listening to all sides, but it certainly sounds like the consensus is to let mom and daughter decide.

Edited July 1, 2006 by frank1538 (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I would not view this as a battle as much as how to close the divide at the top. I think it's important that the outcome appears supported and mutually agreed upon; One cannot overestimate filial piety in the chinese, KK is going to listen to her mother and it's better that the two 'at the top' are not receiving divided reactions from the one caught in the middle.

 

Aside from sentimental or legal reasons for the child to stay, I'm not sure there are compelling (overriding) reasons to Jingwen's desire. As Mick said, either venue will not see any suffering result; which one produces more benefit could be discussed, and (IMO) would need to look at this over the next 10 years or so, on the impact to all involved.

 

An issue I see with Joanne's #3 is that it could start out in principle, but in practice will revert to one of the other two situations. I think you know Jingwen would take over too much.

 

An issue I see with Lee's early legal intervention is that most chinese I know like to be in control of a situation/decision... involving legal issues early on could steer it in a direction of 'lost control' over the decision... not sure how that will then play. (Not that I'm for or against it, just stating my thought on it).

 

This is about following a culturally taught way of life. This 'delaying of growing up' is a way of control but it's managed control that produces some very noble qualities that get reaped by the parents once they are much older and care is reciprocated. Although immigrants and living in america, this is what they know and understand and are comfortable/secure with. It's us USC who are not comfortable with it.

 

To me, KK is just too young to responsibly care for the child; mom will always intervene and take over. In any absence of mom away in china (and KK/David in US), I see it falling apart. It will pressure KK too much and that is what Jingwen is trying to avoid; to let the family absorb the responsiblity on their shoulders; It's a [extended] family matter to them.

 

It is different in the US, as you say, where kids are taught to be self-reliant and independent from an early age.

 

My son, 15 y.o, is in NY living with a girl who just delivered their baby... He left school (in MA) to go live with her and stated very surely that he was taking responsibility for it and going to do whatever was necessary; nothing was going to stop him. I can say that I think this attitude of wanting to take the responsiblity too young is going to make both of their career paths severly weakened and puts too much pressure on them to pull it off. (this is an extreme case on the other end of the spectrum from you guys, but I see the same 'opportunity costs' are involved if KK is forced to grow up too fast in the 'delayed track' that was laid in front of her from the beginning.)

 

KK needs to stay in school and study to create better opportunities for her 10 years from now; The child will be well cared for and exposed to the kinds of family values that Jingwen wants. I see either choice as a win; I actually see the child in china as a bigger win, short-term and long.

 

Best to all of you in this situation...

[Joanne]

I would not view this as a battle as much as how to close the divide at the top.  I think it's important that the outcome appears supported and mutually agreed upon;  One cannot overestimate filial piety in the chinese, KK is going to listen to her mother and it's better that the two 'at the top' are not receiving divided reactions from the one caught in the middle.

 

Aside from sentimental or legal reasons for the child to stay, I'm not sure there are compelling (overriding) reasons to Jingwen's desire.  As Mick said, either venue will not see any suffering result; which one produces more benefit could be discussed, and (IMO) would need to look at this over the next 10 years or so, on the impact to all involved.

 

An issue I see with Joanne's #3 is that it could start out in principle, but in practice will revert to one of the other two situations.  I think you know Jingwen would take over too much.

 

An issue I see with Lee's early legal intervention is that most chinese I know like to be in control of a situation/decision... involving legal issues early on could steer it in a direction of 'lost control' over the decision... not sure how that will then play.  (Not that I'm for or against it, just stating my thought on it).

 

This is about following a culturally taught way of life.  This 'delaying of growing up' is a way of control but it's managed control that produces some very noble qualities that get reaped by the parents once they are much older and care is reciprocated.  Although immigrants and living in america, this is what they know and understand and are comfortable/secure with.  It's us USC who are not comfortable with it.

 

To me, KK is just too young to responsibly care for the child; mom will always intervene and take over. In any absence of mom away in china (and KK/David in US), I see it falling apart.    It will pressure KK too much and that is what Jingwen is trying to avoid; to let the family absorb the responsiblity on their shoulders; It's a [extended] family matter to them.

 

It is different in the US, as you say, where kids are taught to be self-reliant and independent from an early age. 

 

My son, 15 y.o,  is in NY living with a girl who just delivered their baby... He left school (in MA) to go live with her and stated very surely that he was taking responsibility for it and going to do whatever was necessary; nothing was going to stop him.  I can say that I think this attitude of wanting to take the responsiblity too young is going to make both of their career paths severly weakened and puts too much pressure on them to pull it off.  (this is an extreme case on the other end of the spectrum from you guys, but I see the same 'opportunity costs' are involved if KK is forced to grow up too fast in the 'delayed track' that was laid in front of her from the beginning.)

 

KK needs to stay in school and study to create better opportunities for her 10 years from now; The child will be well cared for and exposed to the kinds of family values that Jingwen wants.  I see either choice as a win;  I actually see the child in china as a bigger win, short-term and long.   

 

Best to all of you in this situation...

228095[/snapback]

Again, David, your arguments are too convincing. At least I am convinced that Jingwei is making the right decision. However, I would never want to be seperated from my daughter.

[warpedbored]

What about Frank's relationship with his grand child? The baby has lived with him since birth and Frank is attached to him. Here in the states he has as much family to nurture him as he would in China. Better medical care, cleaner air, cleaner water and will learn more independence than in China which in turn would prepare him for life in the US better later on. The only up side I can see to sending the baby to China is freeing KK from responsibility and Jingwen from taking over primary care. KK is the baby's mother and I agree with Frank that if she is going to live in the US she is going to have to grow up and take responsibility. Sending the child to China will put him in the same boat as KK when he returns to the US later on. Immature and too dependent. Cultural differences are a key factor here. Jingwen is making decisions that would be best for a Chinese child. This child is American

Edited July 1, 2006 by warpedbored (see edit history)

[Robert S.]

It will give great face for the family in China to have this handsome mei-guo MALE infant to raise. You can go visit him whenever you have time. KK will be there with you for you to work with her in learning the kind of responsibility one needs to live in America, to include choosing a man more carefully. The baby being in China would be less pressure on you. To be a great paterfamilias you have got to take care of yourself.

[tonado]

Frank, quite a dilema you have there. I guess the only thing that makes sense to me is to do as someone suggested and make your thoughts known. Then, let wife and daughter decide - and live with it.

 

Forcing responsibility on KK won't work; she's not ready for it. That leaves your wife taking care of David. To me, that's not an ideal sitution.

 

If the child goes to China until he is ready for school, it will be a real plus for the family and the kid. He'll end up multi-cultual and bi-lingual. I guess I see more downside with him staying here. Sorry.

228085[/snapback]

There are a lot of good reasons why he should go, most I think related to his well being. I'm just afraid his mother will remain totally dependent on Jingwen. I'm listening to all sides, but it certainly sounds like the consensus is to let mom and daughter decide.

228089[/snapback]

Yes, it is best to let them decide. You can give them the pro and con of the idea but they should decide.

[david_dawei]

Again, David, your arguments are too convincing.  At least I am convinced that Jingwei is making the right decision.  However, I would never want to be seperated from my daughter.

228105[/snapback]

Thus, you would not even consider it and it is a moot for you [towards having to think about it].

 

I agree that Jingwen making the right decision.. and I would extend that idea for the entire family, not just the child as Carl is trying to extrapolate the china vs amercian divide.

 

I would bet money that if Jingwin were asked if this is a decision based on what's best for everyone she would be surprised this was even asked.. of course.

 

I had a chance to share this story with my wife after picking her up just now. She said to Jingwen wanting to have the baby go to china to be taken care of , " Of Course".

 

When I mentioned that not everyone in the family would necessarily feel that way.. she said [sorry for some liberty in translating what I understand her to mean]: "If someone wants to force the child to stay, then that person should take care of the child and the decisions [for the family--as they are always for the family in her eyes]."

 

She says that truth be told, the male part of the household is not nearly as involved in the raising of the child... the true emotional energy comes from the woman in the early years. If a man wants to take that on, bring it on...

 

I would also suggest that american men want to analyze, criticize, ponder, evaluate, and critique before ever reaching a decision based on the woman... and dare I say a chinese husband does not tend to do that as much, since (to borrow from Joanne) their way of thinking is simiarly inductive, and therefore quicker to decide/agree/support in spirit to each's decisions are good for the whole.

 

I just don't buy any sentimental cards played as trumping what the mother/grandmother think best. I also would bet money the child comes back better off...

 

It's interesting we label chinese children as immature and too dependent.. most every chinese are so much more mature and confident than the equivalent in the US... less the baggage as well.

[tonado]

This child is American

228109[/snapback]

I am not sure if the father is Chinese or not but the child is still Chinese-American.

[warpedbored]

The child was born here therefore he is american. His ethnic background doesn't matter. As I recall though the child's father is of Mexican decent.

[tonado]

The child was born here therefore he is american.  His ethnic background doesn't matter.  As I recall though the child's father is of Mexican decent.

228127[/snapback]

This is what you said: "Jingwen is making decisions that would be best for a Chinese child. This child is American."

 

And I said the child is a Chinese American. So both cultures are important.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_American

Edited July 1, 2006 by tonado (see edit history)

[SheLikesME?]

I don't know if the following examples fit, but here goes.

 

I had some seemingly serious situations come up that I did not like, when it came to my wife 1) sending her daughter to her sisters in another city, and 2) Her getting this MBA, which will delay her USA arrival past a visa - most likely. I expressed all my reasons and feelings, of course there were some pros to consider. I realized I did not have to go along with this at all. I didn't like it and was about to sit my foot down, to not do the MBA, when I had a change of heart.

 

One thing about expressing my ideas about her always raising her own daughter is that it stirs up some inner feelings in my wife that it is the best way. She has broken ranks on many Chinese and family traditions in her life and my silence would tend to endorse her daughter being schooled at her sister's. So I spoke up.

 

We did all things her way this time, but she is always looking for a way to do it diferent in the future, so we can both be comfortable. Notice I said we, because we did come to a conclusion together, and I support it regardless. However if I felt some really bad vibes, I would set my foot down.