SSN vs EAD Debate

[Feathers268]

If I recall, your wife is here on a K-3.  Before she gets her green card, I believe she will need an EAD or in order to get a SSN.  Having said that, most insurance companies will add a person without a SSN. Mine (Aetna) only required 000-00-0000 (something to fill the data field) for Jingwen's SSN in order to add her.  When she got her number, I simply changed the data.

227403[/snapback]

Is K3 different from K1? We applied and got Jen's SSN 2 months before we even applied for AOS and we never got the AP or EAD. The only snag was that USCIS had put her name into the computer wrong so it took 5 weeks rather than walking out with it that day. Only thing about it was that the card sain "not valid for work without DHS approval".

[mercator]

I added my wife to my insurance when I returned from China after our marriage. No problems.

Edited June 29, 2006 by mercator (see edit history)

[izus]

ChunYan went to apply for her SS and the paper they gave us says 4 weeks... because they have to check where the status of alien status came from.

 

she asked to change her name from her chinese name to her english name and the lady told her to wait till she got her AOS done to change it.

 

she said too many issues with 911 to change your name.

 

i suppose k1 does not have to be married to put on insurance due to the fact that k1 is your full dependent...

 

i dont know how k3 works

[Feathers268]

If I recall, your wife is here on a K-3.  Before she gets her green card, I believe she will need an EAD or in order to get a SSN.  Having said that, most insurance companies will add a person without a SSN. Mine (Aetna) only required 000-00-0000 (something to fill the data field) for Jingwen's SSN in order to add her.  When she got her number, I simply changed the data.

227403[/snapback]

Is K3 different from K1? We applied and got Jen's SSN 2 months before we even applied for AOS and we never got the AP or EAD. The only snag was that USCIS had put her name into the computer wrong so it took 5 weeks rather than walking out with it that day. Only thing about it was that the card sain "not valid for work without DHS approval".

227662[/snapback]

A K-1 is work authorized and can therefore get a SSN. A K-3 is not and must have an EAD or green card.

227710[/snapback]

Don, K1 is not work authorized and we would have needed to get the EAD for Jen to work. We just opted to wait for the GC.

As for insurance, it would depemd on company or policy rules. In out case, Jen and I had to be married before I could add her to my coverage. We have been looking into other options since the plan thought my work is too expensive.

[frank1538]

If I recall, your wife is here on a K-3.?Before she gets her green card, I believe she will need an EAD or in order to get a SSN.?Having said that, most insurance companies will add a person without a SSN. Mine (Aetna) only required 000-00-0000 (something to fill the data field) for Jingwen's SSN in order to add her.?When she got her number, I simply changed the data.

227403[/snapback]

Is K3 different from K1? We applied and got Jen's SSN 2 months before we even applied for AOS and we never got the AP or EAD. The only snag was that USCIS had put her name into the computer wrong so it took 5 weeks rather than walking out with it that day. Only thing about it was that the card sain "not valid for work without DHS approval".

227662[/snapback]

A K-1 is work authorized and can therefore get a SSN. A K-3 is not and must have an EAD or green card.

227710[/snapback]

Don, K1 is not work authorized and we would have needed to get the EAD for Jen to work. We just opted to wait for the GC.

As for insurance, it would depemd on company or policy rules. In out case, Jen and I had to be married before I could add her to my coverage. We have been looking into other options since the plan thought my work is too expensive.

227721[/snapback]

Take a look at http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10720

 

There appears to be a distinction between being authorized to work for SS purposes and proof of authorization when actually applying for a job. It is my understanding that you can get an SSN off the unexpired K-1 visa only, but you need an EAD to actually work. My read is that the SS card and the I-94 are not enough to prove that you authorized to work. Take a look at http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...ndpost&p=203429 which is my take on why a K-1er needs an SSN and EAD to actually work.

[david_dawei]

This issue truly gives me a headache.. I've heard so many variations on what is 'incident to status' and what is 'authorized'... it should go into the Hall of [iNS] Shame... along with a few other issues

 

At one time, I was of the opinion that the distinction Frank lays out is the way to understand it.. that the K1 was authorized to work, incident to status... but had to show some authorization.. and this was either through the EAD stamp at POE or the EAD card...

 

When I build the AOS FAQ, I found a link from Don pointing to a SSN POM which states all the classifications of visa holders and who needs what to work. Notice the company in the list of K1s...

 

 

RM 00203.500 Employment Authorization for Nonimmigrants

https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0100203500

 

1. Aliens Work Authorized Without Specific DHS Authorization

 

The following lists nonimmigrants, by alien classification, who are authorized to work in the U.S. without specific authorization from INS. The alien's I-94 will not have the INS employment authorization stamp and the alien will not have an EAD.

 

Does this mean what I think it means??

[Randy W]

This issue truly gives me a headache.. I've heard so many variations on what is 'incident to status' and what is 'authorized'... it should go into the Hall of [iNS] Shame... along with a few other issues 

 

At one time, I was of the opinion that the distinction Frank lays out is the way to understand it.. that the K1 was authorized to work, incident to status... but had to show some authorization.. and this was either through the EAD stamp at POE or the EAD card...

 

When I build the AOS FAQ, I found a link from Don pointing to a SSN POM which states all the classifications of visa holders and who needs what to work.  Notice the company in the list of K1s...

 

 

RM 00203.500 Employment Authorization for Nonimmigrants

https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0100203500

 

1. Aliens Work Authorized Without Specific DHS Authorization

 

The following lists nonimmigrants, by alien classification, who are authorized to work in the U.S. without specific authorization from INS. The alien's I-94 will not have the INS employment authorization stamp and the alien will not have an EAD.

 

Does this mean what I think it means?? 

227775[/snapback]

Yes - K-1's are actually authorized to work, although getting a job may be a separate issue because of the 90 day expiration. With some employers, however, simple eligibility for an EAD is enough.

[david_dawei]

This issue truly gives me a headache.. I've heard so many variations on what is 'incident to status' and what is 'authorized'... it should go into the Hall of [iNS] Shame... along with a few other issues  

 

At one time, I was of the opinion that the distinction Frank lays out is the way to understand it.. that the K1 was authorized to work, incident to status... but had to show some authorization.. and this was either through the EAD stamp at POE or the EAD card...

 

When I build the AOS FAQ, I found a link from Don pointing to a SSN POM which states all the classifications of visa holders and who needs what to work.  Notice the company in the list of K1s...

 

 

RM 00203.500 Employment Authorization for Nonimmigrants

https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0100203500

 

1. Aliens Work Authorized Without Specific DHS Authorization

 

The following lists nonimmigrants, by alien classification, who are authorized to work in the U.S. without specific authorization from INS. The alien's I-94 will not have the INS employment authorization stamp and the alien will not have an EAD.

 

Does this mean what I think it means??  

227775[/snapback]

Yes - K-1's are actually authorized to work, although getting a job may be a separate issue because of the 90 day expiration. With some employers, however, simple eligibility for an EAD is enough.

227779[/snapback]

I agree.. this is the bigger problem which practically makes getting the EAD the only means to secure a job... I've read different experiences and some have gotten the job without getting the EAD... so it depends on the employer, which seems unfortunate...

[frank1538]

This issue truly gives me a headache.. I've heard so many variations on what is 'incident to status' and what is 'authorized'... it should go into the Hall of [iNS] Shame... along with a few other issues?nbsp;

 

At one time, I was of the opinion that the distinction Frank lays out is the way to understand it.. that the K1 was authorized to work, incident to status... but had to show some authorization.. and this was either through the EAD stamp at POE or the EAD card...

 

When I build the AOS FAQ, I found a link from Don pointing to a SSN POM which states all the classifications of visa holders and who needs what to work.?Notice the company in the list of K1s...

 

 

RM 00203.500 Employment Authorization for Nonimmigrants

https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0100203500

 

1. Aliens Work Authorized Without Specific DHS Authorization

 

The following lists nonimmigrants, by alien classification, who are authorized to work in the U.S. without specific authorization from INS. The alien's I-94 will not have the INS employment authorization stamp and the alien will not have an EAD.

 

Does this mean what I think it means???nbsp;

227775[/snapback]

Yes - K-1's are actually authorized to work, although getting a job may be a separate issue because of the 90 day expiration. With some employers, however, simple eligibility for an EAD is enough.

227779[/snapback]

I agree.. this is the bigger problem which practically makes getting the EAD the only means to secure a job... I've read different experiences and some have gotten the job without getting the EAD... so it depends on the employer, which seems unfortunate...

227783[/snapback]

I don't want to belabor the point since it's not germane to Hunter's K-3 question, but take a look at http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/EAD.htm

 

"...The specific categories that require an Employment Authorization Document include (but are not limited to) asylees and asylum seekers; refugees; students seeking particular types of employment; applicants to adjust to permanent residence status; people in or applying for temporary protected status; fianc¨¦s of American citizens; and dependents of foreign government officials."

 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Randy W]

Yes, the fiance of an American citizen is eligible for a work authorization, but Someone on this board disagrees with you.

 

As far as actually finding a job, this is a moot issue. But K-1's need to be aware of the documents this person links to and take a copy of it with them when they apply for an SSN, since they are asked for specific employment authorization. I believe it was a good friend of yours who provided these links.

[Randy W]

Repaired link (thanks David)

[Feathers268]

The point is.........a K-1 can get a SSN without an EAD. A K-3 can not.

227792[/snapback]

OK, OK, OK, I'll differ to your experience on this. I had thought part of the K3 process put you further along as far as AOS and would have alloed for the ability to get a SSN right along with the K1. After all, I thought part of why folks are willing to to though a little more %$#^ was for an easier time once here. But there I go trying to stuff some logic into a government operation.

[david_dawei]

Frank.. feel free to pull out all the 'off-road' debate into another post...

 

But as long as it is here... and I would think Hunter has his answer: K3 must have EAD to get SSN.

 

----

 

in another thread:

"Holder of an unexpired K-1 visa does not need an EAD to get an "authorized for work" SSN - EM 00154 -"

http://www.skyweb.net/~rlls/ssn/em00154.pdf

 

I see two issues:

- Authorized to work

- Proof of that employment authorization

 

The K1 visa itself (incident to status) is authorized to work.

 

Acceptance as proof of the employment authorization includes the I-94, whether it is stamped or not.

 

The SSN memo says, "The I-94 is proof a K1 alien is authorized to work".

 

I would completely agree with these thoughts:

1) The argument that everyone is following a different directive and policy.. the right hand and the left hand are clueless as to the other.

2) Convincing an employer of this will be harder than getting agreement on this issue

3) That I could be completely wrong.. and now I go to put my head in the sand and hide for a while

[david_dawei]

ok.. you won't believe what I found in the sand ... alot of other guys trying to rescue a lost position like mine

 

[ I'll remind everyone that this debate is focused on the first 90 days of a K1s status in the US]

 

The sandmen debate goes as follows:

 

One guy says: "An EAD is not required of K1 to get a SSN, but is required to to be employed".

 

Another guy says: "A K-1 holder is authorized to work, even without the stamp, for the first 90 days upon entry. It's just that the stamp makes it easier to prove".

 

---

 

I was ready to 'tip the king' (in chess, if you want to forfeit the game, you can knock over your king) when I read (but now cannot find it in the sand) that 'incident to status' simply means they are authorized to secure proof of employment authorization; meaning that as a K1, you have a right to file for an EAD card (as opposed to some who have no right from lack of incident to file for this).

 

I was swayed from tipping the king (the queen was happily waiting off the board, who was sacrificed for positional gain) when I found one guy arguing from an asylee memo (mouth was full of sand from many stomping his head into the ground, but I think I understood him)... and since the asylee is in the same 'incident to status' group as K1, he uses the memo as further proof for K1 ...

 

Lucky for me, this 6th circle of hell man (yes, a nod to Dante's Divine comedy where the 6th hell is for heretics) had etched on his arm the website:

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/han...ylees031003.pdf

 

I'm sure that those with a few months wait will be chomping at the bit to read this.. those of us no longer waiting are wondering WTF am I reading this for...

 

In summary, I believe it is saying:

- aliens listed under 274a.12(a) are "employement authorized incident to status" without restriction... yada yada.. and asyleees are one of the classes (AS ARE K1)...

- That confusion is based on the section stating "as evidenced by an employment authorization document issued by the service"... and that the alien asylee, among others (IN THE GROUP, ERGO, K1) must apply to the service for a document evidencing such employment".

- A distinct exists between an alien having employment authorization vs an alien having evidence of employment authorization... and one authorized to work may obtain evidence/proof, of which the EAD is one way, and is preferred since it is also an valid ID... but lack of EAD is not lack of employment authorization.

- Refugees are parallel to asylees (AS ARE K1s), and the same applies to them.

 

This memo is an interpretation of yet another memo...

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/han...umOGC061702.pdf

 

The summary section states that NO EAD is required to define the status as "authorized for employment", but I concede this is not yet dealing with the 'proof' required...

 

They seem to define "incident to status" as "automatic employment authorization". A footnote notes, that "to demonstrate employment authorization", the services will issue a form I94 (PARALLEL TO K1), which sees this as "another option" to the EAD.

 

This memo delves into the sand deeper to deal with the "as evidenced by an employment authorization document"... and states that EAD is not required for employment authorization. The case of not having EAD is simply "employment authorized without an INS-issued EAD" , ergo: still employment authorized.

 

Further states that misunderstanding comes from "eligible for employment" is incorrect and is correctly as "authorized for employment".

 

Judicial review decided some have "based its conclusion on faulty premise--that the regulations require eligible aliens to apply for employment authorization. An eligible alien is not required to apply for employment authorization, but receives it automatically. The regulations require that evidence of this employment authorization be obtained by application to the INS".

 

Their summary:

"By policy directive, asylees are provided witha form I-94 containing an endorsement of their work-authorized asylee status, which therefore, constitutes an endorsement of their work authorized status".

 

---

 

Which is what I said previously.. that the INS form I-94 for K1 is evidence of proof of work authorization, with or without a stamp at POE.

 

---

 

Being in south florida... the sand gets real hot... I'm glad it is night time, as it will be much cooler as I return to my previously dug hole

Edited June 30, 2006 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[frank1538]

I see two issues:

227859[/snapback]

You're right. There are two separate and distinct issues here.

 

The first is what you you need to prove that you are authorized to work in order to get a SS card. As my link that Randy provided and the SS memorandum state, the I-94, which shows a valid admission to the US, the visa status (K-1) and the duration, are sufficient for SS purposes. With this proof, SSA will issue the card.

 

The second is what you have to provide to an employer when you seek a job. For this purpose, let's assume the employer is on the up and up. If a K-1 visa holder tried to get a job with just the SS card and a current I-94, the employer would likely say the visa holder needs an EAD. That's why USCIS issues a 90 day EAD for K-1 visa holders - they need it to present to the employer. A lot of good a 90 day EAD does since it takes about 90 days to get the dumb thing.

 

I'd be willing to say that many employers will probably accept the I-94 as verification of one's employment authorization, but I still think the EAD is technically required - not to get the SS card, but to get the job.