Christianity and Chinese

[skibum]

David, I would say that you two have your poo together!

[BuffaloPaul]

My wife was invited to a Christian Church about 12 years ago in China and decided to become one. She is very happy attending Church here. Doesn't seem to have any interest in Buddhism.

[lele]

My wife, and others from her part of China would be appauled to even be asked to step foot in a Christain Church, given that the Germans and Later the French used Christainity as a means of entering into Shandong, Jiangsu, et. al. which they then used later (after the Boxer Movement) to start to repress the local population. This included direct attacks on former relatives of hers by such governments (until the Christain Generals under Hitler later tried to protect some of the people from the Brutality of the Japanese in Shandong, Jiangsu, and Shanghai, etc.).

 

The resentment is still strong.

 

However, social organizations seem to work well with the other students at my University who are also from the North or the North East of China. My wife is feeling more comfortable in these groups (who tend to be either Buddhist or non-religious, and tend to have very few if any Southern Chinese (eg: Guangdong/Guangxi people in them)).

 

Possibly conicidence...or possibly that the British were better at infusing Christainity (ie: through forced consumption of opium) into the parts of China closer to their regions (in the South) as compared to the more hostile reception recieved in the north (although Shanghai seems to have combined these two methods).

 

It is interesting to read the perspectives in this post.

[Jeikun]

I drifted away from Christianity a long time ago. More "deist" now (read optomistic agnostic). Jun has no religion to speak of, but she has expressed curiosity in going to a Christian church, and even suggested that going to church with our children would perhaps be a good way to help instill a moral framework for them. I don't know if I could press something I don't believe onto my own Children though - sounds worse than not going at all. But I must admit that religion (despite it's misuses by those in power, and the actions of a few psychotic zealots) is a useful tool for explaining the "whys" of morality to the masses (those who can't/won't think their way to it via philosophy). Believing in Karma, heaven, hell, everlasting life, eternal reward or punishment creates a sence of balance in life that is missing without.

 

I have always been terribly confused as to how much of modern Christianity is based on the works of a Greek philosopher (Plato), and Mideval fiction writers (Dante, Milton) as opposed to the bible which promises horrible plagues and curses on anyone who would alter/add to/ subtract from it. Though the Catholic church didn't seem to care about that

 

oops... can o' worms. I'd really like to discuss that with someone though.

[david_dawei]

The greek influence has been much debated, and according to these christian apologetic writings (defenses of the faith), long discarded:

 

Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Philosophy?

http://www.equip.org/free/DA242.htm

 

THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THE QUESTION OF GREEK INFLUENCE

http://sguthrie.net/greekchristian.htm

 

 

I am reminded of St. Augustine's influence.. he was called "the Doctor".

 

---

 

I will say that chrisitianity is a little difficult unless you know the 'entire plan' ... and reading any one book in the NT or OT is not going to give you the bigger picture, but leave you with curses, etc...

 

But you raise an interesting thought, that of modern christianity and the influences on it beyond just the greeks (or romans and even older mythologies influencing the OT)...

 

Milton wrote "The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce"... needless to say parliment (and the Presbyterian church) did not take kindly to this...

 

I cannot help but think that people, from St. Augustine to Milton to 20th century philosophers have had an influence on theology, whether it be evangelical, liberal or postmodern... Theology has evolved and broken into almost as many branches as denominations... for behind a denomination is a set of doctrines which will differ from another church.

 

The Paradigms and Parameters of Postmodern Theology

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/a...s/111_04_10.htm

[Mick]

Both Li and I are Christians and attend church on a regular basis. In fact, Li was a Christian long before I met her. Our third date, in fact, she took me to a church in Hefei.

 

We do not attend a Chinese church, although there are several nearby. My spiritual journey has been a long one, having studied just about every major, and a lot of minor ones. My path led me to remain in the Christian fold. For that, I am thankful but do not disparage other beliefs.

 

I wish all well in their search for truth. May it find them.

[bnolsen]

The greek influence has been much debated, and according to these christian apologetic writings (defenses of the faith), long discarded:

 

Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Philosophy?

http://www.equip.org/free/DA242.htm

 

THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THE QUESTION OF GREEK INFLUENCE

http://sguthrie.net/greekchristian.htm

 

 

I am reminded of St. Augustine's influence.. he was called "the Doctor".

 

---

 

I will say that chrisitianity is a little difficult unless you know the 'entire plan' ... and reading any one book in the NT or OT is not going to give you the bigger picture, but leave you with curses, etc...

 

But you raise an interesting thought, that of modern christianity and the influences on it beyond just the greeks (or romans and even older mythologies influencing the OT)... 

 

Milton wrote "The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce"... needless to say parliment (and the Presbyterian church) did not take kindly to this... 

 

I cannot help but think that people, from St. Augustine to Milton to 20th century philosophers have had an influence on theology, whether it be evangelical, liberal or postmodern... Theology has evolved and broken into almost as many branches as denominations... for behind a denomination is a set of doctrines which will differ from another church.

 

The Paradigms and Parameters of Postmodern Theology

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/a...s/111_04_10.htm

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My only comment about this is that any christian pastor worth his salt is able to study the original languages directly and teach from them. In the 1800's it was far more common in US society for many...not only pastors...to do just this.

 

As to what influence Greek had on the new testament, well let's say that written Koine Greek is very likely the best written language ever, extremely precise and expressive, an excellent tool for written rhetoric. It's more appropriate to say that the new testament authors heavily used the excellent tools the greeks had at that time.

 

As for all those biblical scholars mentioned, well, they aren't the authority, the original scriptures are.

 

How did this thread end up here anyways?

Edited October 25, 2005 by bnolsen (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I'm curious what excellent tools that were available for the 'jewish' authors who spoke Aramaic , and were lowly despised tax collector (Matthew) or fisherman like Peter and John...

 

Let's remember that it was scholars who canonized the books they choose; books written over thousands of years... Who gave these men authority to do this?

 

So, if a paster is worth his salt, is he still not an authority to be considered? I'm not sure what authority you mean though...

 

Not sure the chinese bother with canonizing books.. although they did in history treat some with almost a deity like status.

 

 

 

added quote on the relative quality of the NT author's writings.. which is consistent with what I'd recall studying the apostles:

 

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/N/New-Testament.htm

 

"It is notable that many books of the New Testament, especially the gospels of Mark and John, are written in relatively poor Greek. They are far from the refined Attic or Classical Greek one finds composed by the higher classes, ruling elites, and trained philosophers of the time."

Edited October 25, 2005 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

I'm more curious about where the idea of going to heaven or hell immediatly at death vs. being resurrected in the flesh for judgement on judgement day comes from. Also where in the bible is the snake, satan, the anti-christ, the beast, and the fallen angel of Milton fame all wrapped up together into one being for our convenience?

 

I have heard that early jewish mythology had "the satan" as an angel, and not so much an anti-god but sort of the procecuting attourney for heaven. He presented you with temptation (as he did with Jesus in the New Testament) and will be the accuser of all on judgement day. But this wasn't due to him being a creature of evil anymore than the cops who conduct sting operations, or a state prosecutor are. It was his job.

 

The modern Christian hell is more based on Dante's inferno, than on any biblical text. The modern Christian concept of Satan is more based on the character in Paradise Lost, than on any biblical description. The idea of the soul being seperate from our bodies and going to reward or punishment at the moment of our death is more Platonic than biblical.

[david_dawei]

I'm more curious about where the idea of going to heaven or hell immediatly at death vs. being resurrected in the flesh for judgement on judgement day comes from. 

 

There is a saying: The jews believe in resurrection (as did the Egyptians) and the greeks in immortality.

 

The OT (hebrew) had a word for the underworld, which the greeks translated to 'hades' and this became more of the hell we think of than possibly the original thinkers had.

 

Heaven has been said to have been imported from Zoroastrianism into the OT thought... In the NT times, the Pharisees where believers in a heaven and hell, while the Saducees did not; the latter disappeared after Jerusalem fell.

 

Early passages in the OT supporting no idea of a heaven/hell seem to change later in the OT; compare Ecclesiastes 3:20 to Daniel 12:2, the latter thought written during the Maccabean revolt, when Israel was under Greek rule...

 

The Talmud taught the soul maintains a relationship for a year with the body after death; afterwards people went to heaven or hell.

 

The Greeks held a high regard for personal happiness and believed in the dichotomy (body and soul/spirit) as opposed to trichotomy (body, soul, and spirit).

 

Also where in the bible is the snake, satan, the anti-christ, the beast, and the fallen angel of Milton fame all wrapped up together into one being for our convenience?

 

Even Milton describes Satan in various words and forms.. without need to pull them all together in one place. I see the OT and NT doing the same.

 

The hebrew word 'satan' meant adversary or as such.

 

I have heard that early jewish mythology had "the satan" as an angel, and not so much an anti-god but sort of the procecuting attourney for heaven.  He presented you with temptation (as he did with Jesus in the New Testament) and will be the accuser of all on judgement day.  But this wasn't due to him being a creature of evil anymore than the cops who conduct sting operations, or a state prosecutor are.  It was his job.

 

Satan, first called Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 is usually given the name "morning star". Although there is a good question over how the name Lucifer, a latin name, could make its way into a hebrew text.. Usually the King James version is blamed for having followed Jerome's Latin version...

 

But theologically speaking, Satan was created perfect and was one of the angels (anointed cherub), who fell over vanity and wont of power. See Ezekiel 28:15-19.

 

The modern Christian hell is more based on Dante's inferno, than on any biblical text.  The modern Christian concept of Satan is more based on the character in Paradise Lost, than on any biblical description.  The idea of the soul being seperate from our bodies and going to reward or punishment at the moment of our death is more Platonic than biblical.

 

I tend to agree with the comments of Dante and Milton , and one needs look no further than the art of Bosch as well...

 

Dante has been mentioned as been influenced by Aristotle for parts; Milton's PL was said to have Satan as it's hero...

 

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Edited October 26, 2005 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[Yuanyang]

"Every being in the universe knows right from wrong" - Prot (K-PAX) 2001

 

I've believed that for a long time. Choices are made everyday, small ones perhaps, sometimes big ones.... we are free to pick from right or wrong.

[izus]

"Every being in the universe knows right from wrong" - Prot (K-PAX) 2001

 

I've believed that for a long time.  Choices are made everyday, small ones perhaps, sometimes big ones.... we are free to pick from right or wrong.

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we believe that God allows us to make our own choices to chose right or wrong for ourselves. my father making the life long journey as a christian and much more wise when it comes to this or that does not believe in a hell at all, he says his God is a God of kindness and would never allow this kind of suffering to go on that say the Baptist speak about. I went to a baptist private high school and we were taught once saved always saved if you do not ask Jesus to come into your heart before you die you will burn in hell....

the Baptist preaches more of hell and brimstone then say the Presbyterian or the Methodist. the Methodist seem much more mellow. as some of you guys say less of a Bible Thumpers.

Edited October 27, 2005 by izus (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

Bible Thumpers.

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I suddenly got a picture of a mop being put down and a very large book being used in it's place..

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Bible Thumpers.

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I suddenly got a picture of a mop being put down and a very large book being used in it's place..

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