Tourist visa denied

[skibum]

This year we decided it would be best if just her mother came since she and her husband were denied last year. So she had her interview in Shanghai today. The VO did not look at any of the papers I had sent. He just asked her how many children she had and when she said "one" he denied her a visa.

She is a retired surgeon with a good pension. Owns her new home in downtown Nanjing and has money in the bank. I sure don't don't know why they solely make the decision on the number of kids.

The irony is that in a couple of years when the wife becomes a citizen, they can appy and probably get immigrant visas. But they just want to visit, not immigrate.

I guess it is hard for our Govt to admit that some Chinese are happy in China and don't wish to live here.

If my health continues to improve, Yirong can go back for a week or two and visit but this is not the same as her parents coming here and seeing her new lifestyle and friends. FTG

[Dan R]

Our country's fear of being swamped with Chinese is a factor that does affect us all in receiving visits from family and friends. It seperates us from immigrants from Europe who quickly get their whole family here.

 

For me your information holds out some hope that we will be able to have family members visit one by one, as the family is larger. Seems this is the opposite of having hostages.

[warpedbored]

I think it is ridiculous. They know where you and your wife live. If she overstayed her visa they would know where to find her. It isn't as if your mother in law is going to into hiding and become an ilegal alien. What are they so afraid of? The sad fact of the matter is it is almost SOP to deny these visas regardless of the circumstances. I bet they didn't refund the fee though. I would like to know how much money they collect in fees on denied visas in a year. I would wager the sum is staggering. Keep trying others have shown that multiple attemps often prevail.

[Tine & Ella]

Sorry to hear about your mother-in-law being denied again. I don't understand their decision. My mother-in-law passed on first try in Shanghai and is here now visiting for 6 months. She has a son in Shanghai and daughter here. As Carl said, keep trying.

[Guest blsqueaky]

Ski, same here, so sorry to hear about that. I am right now in a situation, and that is who to apply for a visa. Ling just told me, brother, never get, not married, sister, her job, she visits, lose job, so mother, and her, I would so much like to come visit in a heartbeat, but Ling is afraid that she could not take the flight, health. Her mother is as strong as a horse, and do not tell her different, but wife will say something different. Ski, keep trying.

 

This makes me think of a question, tourist visas are issued in all of the consulates, so then are rules the same, or as they seem to fit the situation. So from what you said Ski, my mother-in-law says 3, one I go visit, other 2 stay here. Makes no sense

[Mick]

Really sorry to hear they denied the visa a second time ski. This whole visa thing just sucks from the get go. I agree with Carl that this is just plain ridiculous. It never ceases to amaze me how these folks, meaning the VOs, think. Or better yet, how they don't think.

 

I suspect that during the time he was interviewing your mother in law, a couple of hundred illegals crossed the border in Arizona.

[Guest blsqueaky]

Really sorry to hear they denied the visa a second time ski. This whole visa thing just sucks from the get go. I agree with Carl that this is just plain ridiculous. It never ceases to amaze me how these folks, meaning the VOs, think. Or better yet, how they don't think.

 

I suspect that during the time he was interviewing your mother in law, a couple of hundred illegals crossed the border in Arizona.

Mick, from what I have read here in this period, THEY DO NOT THINK, and I would hate to get into politics here.

[Dan R]

I suspect that during the time he was interviewing your mother in law, a couple of hundred illegals crossed the border in Arizona.

And Canada or tourists from Ireland, England, Germany, Japan overstayed and got jobs. Next their employers will get their visa status changed to Work Visa making them legal again.

 

But then don't you think wwe should protect America from interfering Mothers? What tangled webs we weave when first we try to administrate.

[frank1538]

Bummer. I guess having a husband in China isn't enough of a tie. But my sense is that the success rate goes up each time an application is resubmitted. Don't give up.

[Dan R]

So Frank do you think this is like buying lottery tickets? Expensive tickets at $100.00 per attempt. It would be interesting to know if those who succeeded after multiple attempts added critical information each time until they had what the visa section wants or did it go unchanged and after you pay enough you get through.

 

No matter how it is done it is a very disheartening procedure for visiting family.

[bubbafred10]

WoW!, Supremely Psychotic! Completely unbelievable. Something wrong, but I don't know what.

[david_dawei]

So Frank do you think this is like buying lottery tickets? Expensive tickets at $100.00 per attempt. It would be interesting to know if those who succeeded after multiple attempts added critical information each time until they had what the visa section wants or did it go unchanged and after you pay enough you get through.

 

No matter how it is done it is a very disheartening procedure for visiting family.

I agree with your questioning this deeper... I don't see multiple attempts as improving the cause.. just a timing issue, like what age your at, etc... I have known some who just don't get the tourist visa, but their older parents do...

[warpedbored]

I suppose that each time you interview you would do better but in the few experiences posted here at CFL it seems that it is multiple attempts that make the difference. Sam and Nicola's grandparents come to mind. I think it took them three trys.

[Yuanyang]

It's like the old 'Exclusion Laws' of the 19th(?) century being applied again.

[bubbafred10]

There must be a recourse or a way to file a reconsideration, isn't there? Maybe not for a visitor's visa? That's quite unbelievable, to get rejection two straight times. Next time, US embassy or consulate should be more upfront so she doesn't have to waste more money and trip to the consulate, and another broken expectations.

 

An alternative is to get business visa. Figure out some kind of business visa. But that is similar to a visitor's visa too, isn't it?

 

But take heart, here is a story of a Chinese CEO who got shabby treatment from US immigration:

 

Boeing stumbles in race for China

By Kristi Heim

 

Seattle Times business reporter

 

 

XIAMEN, China ¡ª In the CEO's office at Xiamen Airlines, one of Boeing's most loyal customers sits beside a portrait of Mao and a photo of a 737 cockpit and describes the humiliation he felt trying to enter the U.S. last year.

 

Wu Rongnan runs the only domestic carrier in China that still has an all-Boeing fleet. As he takes a long draw on an English 555-brand cigarette, however, the 62-year-old Wu says the affronts he experienced on his way to Seattle in December were "a bitter pill."

 

To obtain a visa, he spent three hours in line at the American consulate in far-off Guangzhou ¡ª and was fingerprinted, something he considers suitable only for criminals. Then, at the immigration counter in Los Angeles, he was treated rudely and escorted to a room for questioning, despite the invitation from Boeing in his hand.

 

"It must be that America is so rich they don't want our money," he said.

 

Wu's reaction is a symptom of problems that have compounded to erode Boeing's longtime dominance in China, handing the advantage to aggressive European rival Airbus in the world's most promising growth market.

 

Some of the problems ¡ª the visa issues and political friction over Taiwan ¡ª are beyond Boeing's control. But others stem from the company's own mistakes, according to interviews with a range of Chinese airline executives, government officials, former Boeing employees and others.

 

After its longtime China manager left the company unhappily, a revolving door of executives were dispatched for short-term stints in China. Since most were unfamiliar with the language and culture, it was harder for them to build strong relationships. As Boeing management focused on keeping costs down and pushing sales, it missed opportunities suggested by its own employees to foster goodwill. And some customers felt Boeing fell short in training and support after they bought its planes.

 

One manager at China Southern Airlines, China's largest domestic airline, invokes a Chinese proverb to describe Boeing's behavior: "Pick up a sesame seed, lose sight of a watermelon."

 

In other words, Boeing lost sight of the big picture.

 

"They've been rather dense in their dealings with China," said Sidney Rittenberg, a noted China expert and business consultant. "People they've had working with China were not that good at reading cross-cultural issues and dealing with the Chinese. The Airbus people have made a science out of it."

 

Ten years ago, more than eight out of every 10 commercial jets flown in China were Boeing planes. Now about six of 10 are. Airbus' share of new airplane deliveries to China rocketed from 18 percent in 1993 to 67 percent last year, according to Back Aviation Solutions.

 

This bustling city on China's southeastern coast illustrates the potential that China holds for both companies. Business travelers from nearby Taiwan are multiplying rapidly. So are local customers like the stylish young tourists strolling along the city's picturesque boardwalk. In the next two decades, Chinese airlines are expected to triple their fleets, adding 2,300 jets worth nearly $200 billion.

 

Recent evidence suggests Boeing may be pulling itself out of its decade-long downturn in China. It hired a veteran China executive to head its Beijing office and improve relations with government leaders. It bounced back strongly this year with the sale of 60 of its new 787 jets to Chinese airlines.

 

While these are promising signs for Boeing, regaining its dominant role in China may require corporate leadership that is more nimble, humble and ethnically diverse.

 

History

 

Pioneering spirit drives Boeing's early success

 

Boeing sold its first airplanes to the People's Republic of China in 1972, six years before the United States had formal diplomatic relations with the country. The company blazed a trail of airplane sales right on the heels of President Nixon's historic visit. The first 10 707s it sold had to be delivered to China in 1974 by Boeing crews ¡ª the Chinese couldn't take possession in the United States, since their assets were still subject to seizure.

 

A pioneering spirit drove Boeing's early efforts, said James Chorlton, one of the first Boeing salesmen sent to China.

 

"We used to have people fighting for a chance to go to China," he said. "We wanted to help this country get started. They didn't have enough roads or enough railways, and a billion people were starting to move around."

 

The Chinese found Boeing planes superior to their existing Russian prop planes and British Trident jets.

 

But no business in China gets very far without strong personal relationships, or "guanxi." The personal friendships between Boeing employees and their Chinese counterparts created the glue to cement the deals.

 

"We developed a rapport with the Chinese at all levels that was very, very strong," said Chorlton, who retired in 1991 as vice president for sales in Asia. He still keeps in touch with former customers and counts them among his closest friends.

 

Matt Chen became Chorlton's right-hand man. Chen, an unassuming young engineer whose parents fled China in 1949, rose through the ranks to become one of Boeing's chief deal makers in China. When Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping visited Boeing's Everett plant in 1979, it was Chen who accompanied him and translated for Boeing CEO Thornton "T" Wilson.

 

Though based in the U.S., Chen gradually built a network of customers in almost every corner of China. "He was a hero for Boeing in China," said Wang Xiaowan, a professor at Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics who translated airplane operating manuals into Chinese for Boeing. "After he left, Boeing had no way to develop business, because they had no friends," she said.

 

Chen recalls a deal he salvaged in 1991. China Southern Airlines, one of his biggest customers, was considering buying Airbus planes instead of Boeing's forthcoming 777.

 

He rushed to Paris to meet with Yu Yanen, then chairman of China Southern, who was scheduled to travel to Airbus headquarters the next day.

 

Over dinner, Chen briefed the Chinese executive on the merits of the 777 and proposed a leasing plan to fill a gap in China Southern's fleet until the new plane was ready.

 

The two toasted each other with a generous amount of scotch, Chen said. The next day, Yu never met with Airbus. China Southern became one of the first buyers of the 777.

 

For two decades, Chorlton said, "We had the whole thing locked up."

 

Glass ceiling

 

Deal maker retires rather than complain

 

As the new competitor Airbus entered the market, said former company executives and Chinese customers, Boeing suffered from missed opportunities, arrogance and complacency. The company became a victim of its own success.

 

"Boeing had the typical complex of being on top of the world," said Peter Chang, managing director of China Aviation Marketing and senior vice president of Boullioun Aviation Services.

 

While Airbus gained momentum, Boeing's senior management seemed distracted by events at home. In the late 1990s, huge production swings were followed by rounds of layoffs. Boeing's merger with McDonnell Douglas in 1997 vastly expanded the military side of its business.

 

"Management became very self-absorbed," Chang said. "In a marketplace where your competitor is busily courting new customers, there was a high cost to be paid."

 

In the aviation industry, regaining lost customers is much harder than holding onto them. "Switching is complicated, expensive and exhausting," Chang said, because it might mean replacing a company's computer system and retraining its entire crew.

 

Chen, the deal maker, and other ethnic Chinese employees at Boeing felt they had the skills and ideas to improve the company's relations with China. But they faced a glass ceiling that ultimately limited their influence.

 

Chen thought he would be the natural choice to lead Boeing's expanded office in China. When he wasn't chosen, he never protested.

 

"That's the Chinese in me," he said. "I don't beat my own drum."

 

Instead, after 34 years at Boeing, he retired early in 1994. Upon leaving Boeing, Chen became a vice president at American Airlines, where he spent eight years helping lay the groundwork for its first routes to China.

 

In Asia's other booming market, Boeing hired Dinesh Keskar, a native of India, as its sales chief.

 

Yet even 10 years after Chen's departure, Boeing has not found a manager with his language and cultural ability to head its sales operations in China. "Boeing just never really knew how to keep the relationship going," Chen said.

 

To be successful in China, "They've got to promote Chinese Americans within top management at home," said Jim Eckes, managing director of consulting firm Indoswiss Aviation.

 

Customers complain

 

Gestures overlooked; loyalty begins to erode

 

Early on, Boeing made huge investments to help build Chinese airports and infrastructure. But, thinking they had the market sewn up, managers ignored small things they could do to foster goodwill, said C.C. Tien, an engineer who retired after 34 years at Boeing and now advises China's regional jet program.

 

For instance, he suggested the company sponsor conferences in China or museum exhibitions showing Chinese contributions to engineering.

 

"It's important to show Boeing cares not just about your money, but about what's going on in China," he said. "Those are subtle things. You don't see the direct payback for a long time."

 

Seemingly trivial things made a big difference to China Southern Airlines.

 

A longtime Boeing customer, China Southern has trained its pilots on almost every family of Boeing aircraft from the 737 to the 777. China's current aviation minister started his career as a China Southern pilot.

 

In 1991, Boeing's Matt Chen had persuaded China Southern to buy 72 Boeing airplanes by offering flight simulators and throwing in free software and training to run them.

 

A few years ago, the airline was told it would have to purchase the next batch of software for about $150,000, said Rong Weiguo, deputy manager and maintenance expert at China Southern's Flight Training Center in Zhuhai.

 

In the scale of things, that's a tiny amount to Boeing. "Sesame seeds" compared to "watermelons," Rong said.

 

"We bought so many planes," he said. "For the safety of the plane, this is something they should provide."

 

And more than a year after he asked to purchase the simulator data for the 777-200, Rong says he had not received any reply from Boeing.

 

In January, China Southern became the first Chinese customer for the new Airbus double-deck superjumbo jet, the A380.

 

Chinese airlines and aviation officials also have complained they're not getting adequate training from Boeing. To keep up with demand, China will need 1,200 new pilots a year. A shortage of well-trained pilots and mechanics threatens to slow development of the nation's air travel because authorities worry the market is growing too fast to ensure safety.

 

Conditions in China have improved dramatically since the days when CAAC, the Civil Aviation Authority of China, had a nickname: Chinese Airlines Always Crash. But after a fatal accident last year, CAAC said it would restrict new plane orders for delivery in 2005.

 

Seattle once offered an ideal environment for Boeing to train Chinese pilots, who could also be shown the virtues of Boeing technology.

 

But changes in U.S. immigration policy after the 2001 terrorist attacks make that harder.

 

As a result, Seattle has lost that business from Chinese airlines. Xiamen, which used to send about 50 pilots a year to flight school in the U.S., now sends its pilots to Australia, New Zealand and Europe.

 

As for Xiamen Airlines President Wu, his latest visit in May went more smoothly, though he and his employees found the documents required to enter the U.S. had changed yet again.

 

Boeing's vice president for sales in China, Rob Laird, said many of the Chinese complaints are just a natural part of the buyer-seller relationship ¡ª customers routinely demand more from their suppliers.

 

"They will always complain that we don't give them enough discounts, we don't give them enough freebies."

 

He said Airbus gained market share in China by flooding the market with surplus production at discount prices.

 

Laird, who has worked for Boeing since 1981 with extensive experience in Asia, said he doesn't think having Chinese leadership in the China sales team would give Boeing an edge.

 

"It would be good if we could, but it's not an imperative," he said. "In any market, it's not so much ethnic origins or language capability, but what you can do for the customer."

 

 

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