oregonknl

Carl! Great Story! But what is this!?: "In a way, I feel that the visa is all of yours, as well as ours" Hey Carl! I thought you lived in the same Oregon city as me -- not Hollywood Calf! This ain't the Oscars -- You got it because it was : The Right Thing To Do! Also as one who has been through the Consulate in GZ twice for adoption, let me just say this about your notes from the Thursday (4-29) Meeting with the consulate officer : "He talked about why the visas take so long once they reach GZ. He blames it on Chinese customs." REALLY!?!? Well, let me ask you this Mr. "Customs Man" --- then why don't you put the applications in a diplomatic pouch and circumvent Chinese Customs completely? This is an entirely appropriate use of this form of "Diplomatic Immunity" (this is a proper function of STATE, on behalf of its citizens! there is no hint that it is to "circumvent" anything!) ....And you can bet that the Chinese are using it to bring similar papers to America. AND BY THE WAY! It is the way the adoption applications for both my daughters were transported! This smells like dead fish to me... ---Kim

Hey Frank, Have a good trip! Just got off the phone with Fei, also in Guangzhou --- --- current weather, hot (upper 80's) humid --- and the streets are jambed with people because of the holiday... --Kim

Clifford --- My opinion is that, at this point, you need a lawyer if you want to make this happen.... And I think you need to listen to Frank ... If this John Roth guy has a speciality in Russia, then he also has contacts there ... that is what you need at this point (also his advice, not mine) Kim

Well. I actually got a piece of good information from Dave the other day ... (what are the chances of that happening again!?!? ) So, naturally, I remembered it.... If you want a place that is tropical and pristine, why not Hainan Island -- -- I have thought about visiting in the past, and will try to work it in in the future.. Dave indicates that Sanya on the southern tip is a nice place -- maybe give him a ring --- --- but then again, you might not have two hours to read his reply.... --Kim

Carl & Bing, Congradulations! Sorry I just joined the site just as you left for GZ --- looks like you have quite a fan club! And if you are going to bar cruise locally, try to remember to stay out of the basement of the Victory Hotel, 4 blocks from the Consulate ---its actually one of the greatest brothels in China -- (according to others)... Maybe we will meet in Portland sometime! --Kim

My heart goes out to all of you (and it should probably go out to me and my Fei as well!) ... But we are just getting into GZ (customs hold on the file).... If misery loves company, I have been here before --- the adoption of my first daughter was delayed beginning in 1995 -- (US gov. shut down in funding spat) then Beijing, in an anti- corruption campain transfered adoption responsibilties to another agency -- so here i was looking at a 3/4 inch picture of my infant daughter-to-be and -- and finally met her in 1997 just after her second birthday... As I have posted several days ago--- the US is way behind Europe in biometric identification -- but the terrorists will be coming over the border in Mexico and Canada -- not through China.... Obviously, we are: "straws to the wind" politically, but hopefully, China will see the wisdom of increased security... --Kim

Hey Dave, Thanks for the tip! Statue of Liberty -- bigger than in the US? Even a Democratic "apologist" for China such as myself has to smile at that... Kim

Ah Dave! So you have visted Hainan Dao! I had half an impulse to go there this last Feb. but chose Thailand instead.... thought it might be more pristine, but was dissappointed with the water clearity... I have a good friend from college that used to fly C--130s (now senior with American Airlines) ---bet Trigg spent some time on C--130s--- --- the airplane that was involved with the Chinese fighter was an EP - 3.. It has evolved several times since I used to associate with the pilots and crew out of PAX - RIVER (Maryland) in the mid 1970's. At that time, they used to have a stinger on the tail (a long antenna was dragged behind the plane's tail during the cold war ---to detect Soviet Subs off the east coast--- they were in the air for up to 12 hours at a time... a tough shift..... So it was a natural that these SAME PLANES would be outfitted for long patrols off the Chinese coast. (sans the tail stinger --- no longer necessary with advanced avionics) I asked my college friend why, after the planes collided mid--air that the pilot didn't just order the crew to bail out and ditch in the South China Sea ---his response wat that probably he was afraid that the crew would die of exposure before rescue (hypotherma) but the South China sea is tropical --- water temps --70 -80's f easy to survive for days... And by putting down on Hainan, we ended up with another "Publeo" ---obviously, China learned alot about how we spy in the sky.... Still, my friend Keven (the pilot) has huge respect for the pilot of the EP - 3... Apparently it is very difficult to fly a plane of that kind without a nose cone, and of course, it had other damage as well... -- Kim

Hi Dave, Back again... So Dave, did you read what I said about the CCAA National structure? In the last 5 or 6 years it has become very hard for orphanage directors to pocket any of the $3000 directed to their orphanage.. Impossible? probably not. But you might be surprised to see the "bricks and mortar" improvements ... Are alot of those due to rich Americans adopting Chinese orphans (and paying the $3000.00)? GEEEEEZZZZ I HOPE SO!! So how many orphanages has your wife been in? And more importantly --when? if it was before 5 years ago, ( even two years ago) her information is obsolete. If you read what I wrote closely, I will admit that there is still often (but not always) a problem with staffing. Dave, you can "Take to the Bank" what I am telling you on this subject --- I can't tell you exactly why I know what I know, but I will tell you I have a very close contact who is in, on average, 10 orphanages per year, and they are widely distributed throughout China. By the grace of God, this person happened to be In the orphanage that my second daughter was in ---AT THE TIME THAT SHE WAS ASSIGNED BY THE CCAA TO US~! This person knew and played with my second daughter, Eve, even before I met her ---Grace of God --- what are the chances of that happening in a country with about 2 million orphans? Dave, I think we may have a certain "Failure To Communicate" problem here --to some extent. ... You are talking cultural -- and I am agree with you on some things culturally, but what I have been communicating to you is the policy ---implemented--- by the Chinese Communist Government. ...the Communists have, and are pushing equality between the sexes in China. Maybe you remember the hard-ass spokesman for the PRC Government during the the spy plane incident? (oh, sorry, I misspoke it was a woman).... Dave, I know that you treasure your son -- care to talk about him? Yes, it is Asian to celebrate a son more than a daughter, but "Boy's Day" is a Japanese tradition, not so much in China.... ----Kim

Hey Mark, Thanks, Jet turned 9 in March (hard for even me to believe -- already!!) Her sister, Eve From Anhui province just turned 7... --Kim

Ok, Back.. Dave--- here are some factual corrections, I'll try to take your points in order. Fees: Its expensive, can't argue that ( about $15,000 start to finish), but less than 1/3 to China. Most of the fees are to the US adoption agency, legal expences, good ol' Uncle Sam --(Consulate in GZ) and travel. The big lump sum is $3000 that goes directly to the orphanage --- it is an incentive by the national oversight agency in Beijing CCAA to place orphans. And CCAA has strict standards for the conditions in an orphanage BEFORE they can place children with foreigners. CCAA has total control in China there are no "shaddow agencies" anymore like there still are particularly in South America, that get children by hook or by crook, and the budget of every orphanage in China is reviewed by CCAA. The way the $3000 US is used (yes, it is big money of course in China) must be reflected and approved in the orphanage's budget. Orphanage's can't get around the CCAA, because the kids are assigned BY CCAA, which has a record of every kid in every orphanage in China. Parents of the children get nothing because the babies (yes, usually girl infants) are abandoned, and their identity is unknown. If it were known, the parents would be in big trouble ---just like they would be here in the US. For the first three months the babies can not even be considered for adoption because there is a police investigation to try to identify the child (usually not much of one, because usually there isn't much evidence to go on), and also, to give the parents a chance to locate the child if they reconsider their actions, which happens infrequently. Occasionally, children are known, and placed in the orphanages after the death of parents (usually som local disaster that affects a whole area, like the recent gas leak in the Chengdu area. These children are immediately available for adoption. Dave, Chinese officials don't care what the west says about Chinese human rights. And maybe you have noticed, they are now putting US and western rights violations back in our face everytime our "Human rights" report comes out on China. The Communist government is simply being practical. The "one child" rule was put into place after years of debate, but in response to the great famines of 1959-60. it is the easiest thing in the world for the US to condem this rule from a position of our short history were there has NEVER been a major famine, such is the bounty of this land that we live in (and so little is the weight of our population and thus responsibilty or government has for feeding it). Dave, the link between the killing of newborn girls and the Communist One-Child rule is a western urban myth. When the Communists were debating this policy, they recognized that it would put even more pressure in the rural areas -- where vitually all the infantcide has occured since the Communist took power, and put a rather strict end to it in the cities -- Dave, it has been the Communists that have offically ended the second-class status of woman when Mao issued his now famous edict: "Girls and Women Hold Up Half The Sky" Long before that even, the Communists were putting an end to the Nationalist's practaces, such as footbinding for sexual attraction.. Infantcide took place for thousands of years before the Communists took power -- particularly if the family didn't get a boy. So Dave, in rural areas the Communists totally EXEMPTED these areas! Rural families can still have as many children as they want! Many rural peasants are opting out of more children --why? Advances in farming techniques require less manual labor, and the market ecconomy --- Material advantages -- brought since Deng are reaching everywhere --- and a new TV may be higher on the list than a new kid... The orphanages are crowded, but that is actually a good sign in a way, the Communists have let it be known, you don't need to kill your baby, we will take care of it-- and about 70% have been upgraded to western standards in the last several years, but there is still a shortage of workers ---ratio to infants, particularly. There are real signs that the situation is turning around, we hold that information for another time... (westerners adoptonly a very small percentage of China's orphans -- most are adopted, as you expect, by Chinese---LOTS cheaper for them to do it too) Kim

Ahhhh, My first chance to straighten Dave out ~! "Chinese children are adorable (is that a racist remark?)" Now Dave--- to the meaning of the title of this topic -- you'll like this -- "The Red Thread" is a saying among some Han (of course, the overwhelming, and extremely tight ethnic group--also of course, the largest in the world) The Red Thread is everything that binds this group together -- what it means to be Chinese... While on one those field trips with our new kids like what you saw: (Nanjing, not Beijing) Several women approached one of the couples with an infant. One woman's comments in Mandarin: Ahhhhhh!! Such a lucky baby! Going to America! And such a lucky family! To now have some Han Chinese! Will improve your family's genes! ) so is THAT racist? do we care? its funny, and in a way truthful-- I think we all think at the very least, that the Han are a beautiful people -- or why would we be bothering with all this? More later, Jet wants breakfast....

Trigg, Probably should add this: Jet came out of a "hard scrabble" orphanage. They vary widely in China, but all are MUCH better than they were in 1997. The Chinese people, and, ARE YOU LISTENING DAVE !?---- The central Communist government have made great progress in the development of these institutions. Jet was simply loyal to her caregivers --- and as you would expect at age 2, terrified to be displaced a second time--(she didn't remember the first time) (thankfully she is now loyal to her parents in much the same way) --Kim

Hey Trigg, You are absolutely right. The girls almost always take the name of the orphanage as their family name. In Jet's case: "Tai Chun Mei" the family name is Tai for the orphanage in Taizhou. (all of the parents we traveled with who got their girls out of that orphanage had Tai as a family name -- one is known today as "Tai "-- first name) So your friend's child probably came from a city that had Mei as a prefix. Jet's American name is typical of those who adopt in China: Elements of her Chinese name are combined (usually, as a middle name). Jet Chun Mei Lathrop. As you know, many Chinese characters can be pronounced the same way, and it is within the context of other characters that they make sense. In Jet's case Chun Mei means plum blossom, but the literal translation would be spring plum. We gave her Jet as a first name for three reasons: The obvious: This girl has thick Jet-Black hair ---even by Han standards! Jet is a gem stone that is said in some cultures to protect a young child. And of course, she came home to Portland on a jet.. (You said something about that transformation from soldier to civilian on such a flight --sorry I can't quote it at the moment..) --Kim

Probably should add: We were in Nanjing with 11 other couples ... all getting infants..

From Dave's post -- (Dave and JM on their first trip to Beijing) "We went to some park and saw 10 US couples pushing their newly adopted babies around in strollers. The looks on their faces sadi it all! They were so happy to have a new baby. It was really quite sweet." Yes, Dave, it IS quite sweet! Partly because it came after a very long wait --- much longer than the wait for a baby "the old fashioned way" In my case the first adoption process started in the fall of 1995, and was not complete until I met my first daughter Jet-- (Tai Chun Mei, then just turned age 2) in March of 1997/Nanjing. Jet was totally loyal to her orphanage care givers: "Mama Day Tah" and "Mama Hey Hey" She hated Me.... She just barely would let my then wife, Pat touch her... And she cried non-stop from the time that she was first placed in my arms in the morning -- tense and stiff as a piece of cordwood -- until about 9 pm. that night... ...finally, she was quietly in mourning, for an orphanage life that she finally realized was behind her, and nothing that she could understand at that time that was to come... ... We didn't even know if she could speak... ... And the truth was, we were exhausted too... So by 10:30, we placed her in her crib, and tumbled into bed ourselves, with sleep coming on fast.... Then, from the crib: Jet started singing softly, a Chinese lullaby to give herself comfort... immediately after that she was asleep.... ---Kim