Joshua + Wang Zhuo

$30,000USD? Am I reading this correctly? Not 30,000RMB? That's an outrageous number. That's about 225,000RMB. This is not normal. The ONLY exception when it would be normal is if the parents are really asking that you purchase a house in China for either your SO or themselves. The house purchase is not that unusual, but to ask for a bride price of 225,000RMB is very unusual. I'm not saying completely unheard of, but quite unusual. I can see 30,000RMB, but not $30,000USD. SinoJim said: Jim, I'd like to clarify that China didn't really have dowry giving as a custom. There might have been some isolated region or certain minority groups who gave dowry to the groom families but as a whole, it was not really practiced. India did practice that--and may still do--but China mostly practiced Bride Price giving. In my previous post in this thread, I was trying to clarify the two terms used: bride price and dowry. I wasn't trying to claim that China practiced both offerings. Haha, yeah you read it correctly and that was my reaction too . Like I said earlier, sometimes I think my fiancee does not understand money so well. Remember, neither she nor her family ever asked for this. I was the one that brought the topic up. I am not sure if she said that amount to see my response, or if she just does not have a concept of the difference between the American dollar and the RMB. Joshua

thats funny, Jins going to love it My personal favorite is the one about standing in line. It is one of the things I first noticed when I was in China. Joshua

One of my biddies sent me this and it made me laugh, so I thought I would share it. http://hellishhumor.com/hellish-pictures/g...sse-culture.php Enjoy!! Joshua

Well, the gentleman that originally posted may have used some harsh words but at least he cares enough about this child enough to seek advice. There are MANY children that would be much better off if they had someone that cared that much. Joshua

I don¡¯t think it was anyone's intent to provide the member any ¡°damnation¡± !! There are some of us here who are very experienced parents of natural, adopted, and/or step children. I think some of us became concerned at the language and tone of some of what was offered within this thread, with respect to the approach to helping this [young] girl. What was most [offensive] to some of us, was a response that what we had to offer was dismissed as ¡°B/S¡±. Being a dad, is a full-time, hands-on job; a job which brings me great joy. I think the guy was just venting in his post and maybe looking for some help and advice. Instead, he was cut down and denunciated. I'll be surprised if he ever post again the way he was treated. He didn't say anything that you or I or anybody else would'nt say. The guy is having a tough time and we should see that, or at least the ones who have experienced raising a step child should see it. No one else can speak unless. And the ones who can speak should see his pain. But I guess it's easier to just kick someone when they're down. That's the real B/S! Thank you for deleting your previous/initial response to my post # 25. Nothing I offered in my post, deserved that angry/harsh response. Moreover, this is not [only] about a parent¡¯s ¡®feelings¡®¡­¡­.what defense, outlet or forum does a young child have, who has been thrust into an alien environment/situation, wherein they have no control ?? It breaks my heart to think about these issues. I wish a family psychologist and/or licensed clinician could review/assess this thread and comment professionally about it. I have been heavily involved, for many years, with CPS here in California, and I know they offer great assistance with family services and classes in parenting. I would imagine most states/counties also offer these tools to assist parents. Yeah, it was harsh, but it was harsh for a reason. I don't like being talked down to and I don't like the attitude you display. What makes you the reigning mogul of child rearing? Why can't you just offer help and/or advice to the OP instead of making assertive remarks and innuendos? Furthermore, the focus here is on the OP and not the child. Your statements are exremely speculative and without basis or reason and your bold and underline words that you think mean something are especially annoying! The point is, help the OP and take it no further. Leave the assertions, innuendos, and speculations out of it. This is a real, and serious situation. There is no place for show-casing or grand-standing here. Give it a rest. You are no pro in this type of case. Don't try to act like one. Additionally, I saved the post I deleted just in case I need it. I do stand by it 100% but felt it was too extreme even for my taste. U are right Ty no one post unless u really know what u are talking about But that may cut our posts down dramatically...... Hell, maybe I should just leave the forum then. Joshua

I read some web articles on Dowry and Bride Price in China. Several of the articles did mention that both were practiced but they said both were mostly abandoned during the cultural revolution. As time goes on people are starting to reinstate some customs and Bride Price has started to make a comeback, but Dowries have not. I imagine it goes back to economics 101. There are more men in China right now than there are women, therefore it is easier to ask for Bride Price then it is for Dowry. I am not really worried about all of this, it is just something that I though would be interesting to learn a little more about. I wanted to show my Financees family that I care enough about her to take into consideration her culture and customs. I am taking away their only child (she was born after 78) and moving her to the other side of the world so I want them to feel as good about this as possible. Joshua

If I was talking about a few thousand dollars I could understand and even agree with this statement. However the number that was mentioned to me was a few tens of thousands. Neither my Fiancee nor her family ever asked for this and the number was never brought up until I started the conversation. My dilemma is not that I have a problem with this custom, it is that I just do not have $30,000 liquid. I respect my fiancee's family very much. They did a wonderful job raising a wonderful girl into a woman. However, I cannot afford to give them $30,000 dollars even if I am 99% sure to get it back. I was asking about the amounts because I wanted to know if it was seen as insulting if I gave them a token amount. My Fiancee told me that her family does not expect anything from me. Her mother just asks that I give her daughter a good life. This whole reverse dowry thing was something I was totally unprepared for though and I was just trying to find the best way to deal with it. As far as buying a book on Chinese customs, I do ask a few questions about chinese customs and cultures, but I think I would not want to read a book on it. One of the things that I my fiancee and I really enjoy doing together is learning about one another's customs and cultures from each other. We have a lot of time apart right now and it gives us fresh topics to talk about all the time;). I really enjoy reading the posts here and listening to others experiences and opinions. Thanks Joshua

I am curious as to how much of a dowry should be given to the parents..... after I saw this topic on the forum I asked my Fiancee about it. She said that although it was not expected, it would be culturally appropriate. When I asked her the amount, I was.........well, I was a little bit surprised. Now, I love my fiancee to death , but sometimes she is a little naive when it comes to money issues. I tried to do a little research on the internet, but this so called reverse Dowry is better known by the name Bride Price. Try Googling Bride Price and see the types of things that come up . Or even better yet Bride Price China . Joshua

Were you ever able to understand on what he based his biased and hateful feelings !!?? Has he ever had a personal relationship with a woman from China ?? Has he ever visited China ?? Has he ever interacted with multiple Chinese people and/or families ?? Yes, as Dave says¡­.¡±Good F¡­¡­ riddance¡± !! Well....... It seems to me he based his opinion on ignorance. Anytime you judge an individual because of the ethnic group they belong to it is ignorant. Even if 99% of Chinese women were low, no good, dishonest and lacked morals (Which we know is not the case ) how is he to know that you did not find one of the 1% that is perfect. Judging people before you get to know them is silly. I think Rob did the right thing by giving him the chance to apologize. Maybe his friend did not realize that he was hurtful, or maybe he spoke without thinking ( goodness knows I have done that before), but when his friend would not apologize for what he said, it just showed that he was not a friend worth having. Joshua

I will give you that how you deal with it might be different, yes, but still it must be dealt with period if you want a successful marriage. You both need to discuss and agree on how it is handled. It can only be ignored, if and only if she agrees this is the best way. You are either with her or against her. If you are percieved as against her, this could have disasterous consequences for your partnership. Speaking in General terms, I find it funny how many people get married, speak the vows but do not understand their full meaning. The part about forsaking all others is not just talking about sex. It refers to emotional as well. If you are not willing to walk away from your family for the sake of your wife, maybe you married the wrong person. No matter how much I love my sister, how close we are, I would not hesitate to walk away for my wife's sake. Luckily, my sister is the most supportive person. I agree with what Lance said, 100%. Especially the part about: Well, of course I would deal with it I mentioned in an earlier post that we have discussed this already. Our decision is to not be confrontational, especially at first, but instead to try to defeat the hatred and ignorance with kindness and compassion. I have no doubt that there will be words that will be said that are inappropriate, but if we become confrontational every time something happens or is said it would rip my family apart from the inside. I agree as well that if the situation continued I would have to choose and of course I would choose my wife. I have discussed this thoroughly with my fiancee in the past. She is prepared and she agrees. If, on the other hand, I was dealing with racism from an outside source, I would not tolerate it even a little. Joshua

Cool pictures!! That site is pretty cool too, I think I am going to join it. I have been looking for something like this. Thanks Joshua

I think it all depends on where the racism originates. Dealing with racism from within the family, from friends and from strangers is different and it has to be dealt with in different ways. I could get confrontational with my family, but that would not get me very far. As much as the racist attitude disturbs me, I love my family and I am not willing to walk away from them and I think confrontation would create a schism from within the family. Joshua

These are exactly the types of answers I was looking for. I will start doing a little research. Thanks for those who posted pictures too. I am still interested in hearing other peoples do's and don'ts for travel Joshua

Is it difficult for her to get a visa there? I guess that is something I never thought about...... Joshua

Well, we all know racism is out there........It is more sad and upsetting when it comes from someone we know and care about though. When I told my family, all my step dad could say was "Well, at lest she isn't black....." That is life though. I truly think the best way to deal with ignorance like that is to smother it with kindness. I have warned my Fiancee about my family and their racism. Our plan of attack is to just be overly nice and laugh about it. If they don't overcome their ignorance........Well, I guess it is their loss and not mine. Joshua

I voted . She seems like a worthy representative. Joshua

I said that a joint account was a bad idea because of the logistics of it, not because of trust. But, that is my opinion. For some relationships it is good, for others it is bad. What is right for some is not right for all. Joshua

It is sad to see these photos. But, like some others said I can find you images of people in America that show just as much pain and suffering. It does not make it right, for sure, but it has existed throughout time and it will not cease any time soon. What can we do to make it better you ask? Continue to do what we are doing . It may sound crazy, but the fact of the matter is that China IS changing. 30 years ago China did not hardly have a middle class. I believe I read somewhere today that the "middle" class in China is over 50% of the population (if someone could find documentation on this, I would appreciate it). But, if today only 20% of the population lives as middle class it is still a marked improvement. Change does not happen overnight. It will likely not even happen during the lifetimes of many of those that are today suffering. America has had some growing pains too. It takes time to get better. What can we do to speed up the process? Don't stop caring. As long as people care, it will continue to get better. It is when people start to turn a blind eye towards the worlds problems that we will really have a problem. Joshua

Do not worry about the gift thing. Take them anyway, but if she does not accept them do not be offended. My SO said that she did not want any gifts from me, but I took them anyway and she was grateful and still says that it was one of the nicest things anyone has ever done for her. She probably said she doesn't want gifts because she does not want to appear to want you for the things that you give her. On another not, do not rush into anything. There is no hurry to get married. Enjoy your trip!! China was the trip of a lifetime for me. Joshua

Have you encountered many rude Chinese or asian in US? If not, you needn't worry. She is going to realize her own misbehavior just as fast as you're ready to point things out to her. Don't add any embarassment. I believe she would be angry at me if I did not tell her something that she is doing that is "wrong" or socially frowned upon. I am not saying that she is rude. In fact, she is one of the kindest people I know. She gets upset with me if I do not correct her language when she speaks wrong. We have talked about it many times ans she would prefer for me to correct her than to do something "wrong" or for someone else to correct her. I feel the same way. When I go to China I want her to tell me if I am doing something outside of the social norm, or if my language is incorrect. There is no need for her to be embarrassed in front of me, or for me to be embarrassed in front of her. As far as encountering rude Asians in the US? Unfortunately I come from a small Midwest town and I very rarely encounter Asians. My Fiancee is the only Asian that I have ever really known other than in passing. In my travels in China I did see that there are many things different than at home, but that is one of the things that made it wonderful. The world would be very boring if we were all the same. Joshua

I agree with Jim 100 % as well. To me this post was about the Chinese people and their behaviors in China though. It is a different story when people from other cultures come here. If they do not want to be treated differently they need to blend into our culture. I have talked with my fiancee about her "rudeness" when cutting lines while shopping. She said that there really was no line and if you are not aggressive you can wait all day. Now.......I get to look forward to seeing how long it takes her to modify her behaviors when she comes to the US. I certainly will make sure that I am with her in public places for a while. I can only imagine how it would go over if she used the same behaviors after arriving. Line jumping, Ignoring sales people, pushing, not tipping, etc.... But, she says she wants to learn . I wonder if there are any crazy "Rude" behaviors that we have when we go to China? Are there any Chinese men or women on here that can shed a little light on this? Joshua

I would have to say I totally agree with this statement. Joshua

I am not denying that there is more bystander apathy in China, or that people do not treat strangers with respect. It is something I witnessed first hand while I was there. People push their way to the front of the line, cut people off on the streets and generally look after themselves first. In fact, I witnessed some of the same characteristics manifesting themselves in my Anna. I even started seeing changes in myself in the short period of time that I was there. In the states if a begger asks me for money I usually look him in the eye and shake my head, or even tell him no. Begging annoys me and I am very unlikely to give to people "asking" for money, but I still view them as people and acknowledge them even if it is to deny them. In China the amount of people asking for money and trying to sell me something I did not need was overwhelming. At first I would always answer "Bu yao, bu yao!" but before long I just ignored them completely. In the states when I stand in line somewhere if someone cuts in front of me, I tend to just say excuse me and give them a look. 90% of the time it was an honest accident and they did not even realize they were doing it. In china if you had that behavior you may stand in line all day so I adjusted accordingly (and I know that the problem is even less for me than for native Chinese, because I am white) and pushed back if I was pushed. In my opinion this can be explained by the population difference and the recent past of the Chinese where competition for survival has been much greater than in the US. I know that when I go there I am in a different culture and they do not necessarily do things like we do in America. It is not "Wrong" or "Bad", it just "IS". If this "problem" of people treating others with apathy is going to be changed, I think the solution is education. I do not look at it is a problem though, I just look at is a cultural difference. I cannot wait for my Anna to come to the states though and experience the differences there. It will certainly take her time to adjust, but I think that will be one of the most enjoyable parts of the near future. Joshua

I do not agree that disclosure is a bad thing . If she assumes one thing and she finds another, it is just one more hurdle that you will face in a relationship. Goodness knows we all have enough hurdles to jump in life, why add a few extra? I do agree that a joint account is a bad thing..... However, joint access to the money is a decision that you need to make on your own. It is right for some people and wrong for others. Joint checking accounts on the other hand lead to problems more often than not. The problem is if two people are spending from the same account it is almost impossible to reconcile your checkbook in a timely manner. What happens if two people spend from the same account on the same day and forget to tell the other about it for a few days? I spent several years working in a bank and I can tell you that I saw more problems happen from this very scenario than any other. IF you feel joint finances work for you, set up individual accounts that are both attached to a joint savings account for overdraft protection. Joshua

I am traveling to China in January and the plan is to teach English while I am there. It is a nice way to supplement my income for a while and it comes with the added benefit of free lodging. I also think it will be one hell of an experience. Does anyone here have any experience with this? Joshua