vincent214

Mick: Yesterday, 09:59 AM Mick - the "horror" story you tell is indeed sobering. Sorry to hear what your friend went through. I have an anecdote to add but not nearly as dramatic. I suppose many here know the "dental office" experience in China. I can't speak for the very large cities, but brought my fiancee to a highly regarded dental place in Guilin for teeth cleaning. The "barber shop" line-up of chairs, patients, completely open/visible to folks in the waiting area, some of whom were coughing, was an unexpected surprise. I decided to wait outdoors. Well - since the "line-up" was on the ground floor, I was able see through the street window all that was going on, and patients and doctors were able to see me as well. I walked away - didn't want to "distract" anyone ! Vincent

I can't add to the thoughtful replies, except to say the same things perhaps a little differently. I think chinadave has a valid point about CFL members' reluctance to judge women who "sucker" men. I think also that Feathers (September 11, 2005 01:58 am.) is right on in his opinion - that (CFL) "outrage" is tempered because a lot of us start to fear that we may be suckered ourselves. There is a great deal of trust we have to put into someone so far away, and let's not forget that this forum has seen bad intentions on the part of the petitioner as well. Certainly none of us can ever know both sides of any member's specific issue. But do we need to know? If we did know, would it help much? I think not. Every individual relationship has its own unique setting. I agree, we cannot judge individual partners of CFL members without knowledge. But nor should we with knowledge. I believe, nor should we judge CFL members who in their enormous suffering ask us to be outraged. Except for very unusual circumstances, I also think that when very personal details are publicly revealed in a world forum, it is a mistake. I don't believe it's fair to our SO's, to ourselves, and to our relationship. No matter what is revealed, the situation can never be fully explained, and never be fully understood by others anyway. So, in part it turns into a form of gossip. That could be harmful. Having said that, we could speak publicly in more general terms about this very serious worry that I suspect we have all had at one time or another. We need not bash anyone's partner - except perhaps in the most flagrant instances where abuse and molestation are evident. We can judge practices in a generic sense. And we should. We know there are women, Chinese, American or otherwise, who claim to "love" - but for material gain. They are very real. They have little conscience. With apparent warm but cold cunning they exploit the easiest vulnerabily - love. There are men who do similarly. Trigg and others say, we all have an "agenda". Yes. This in itself is not necessarily negative or sneaky. There is nothing wrong with wanting a better life. Often these agenda's are natural and normal - that is to seek a partner who complements us in various ways, brings many joys, a partner who inspires us, and more. There is nothing wrong in a Chinese woman wanting to be part of our American life *and* wanting a husband who will love her, and a husband to love. And a better life for her children if she has children. These can be all true - and at the same time. Sfarkas103 (sept 10, 2005) said, Chinese culture breeds deceit (as does American culture in it's own brand of deceit). Yes, it does. I think, particularly in the often need of "Saving Face". I think this one issue alone (Save Face) goes too long a way to creating lies. But, when put into a cultural context, the Save Face lies to some degree are not intended to harm or manipulate, but rather to protect oneself from the pain of ("group" "family" "individual") embarrassment. Where this exists, it can create problems when a partner does not want to or can't, own his/her own stuff, not the least of which is not having important, authentic, dialog with our Beloved, along with much laughter. For my money, this has to be slowly, carefully, and lovingly approached, for any kind of transformation. In this "suckering" problem, I think visa fraud in itself is not the main issue for CFL members. I think it's emotional *betrayal* - and all the accompanying feelings - betrayal by our SO's and/or betrayal of ourselves. When we get into a relationship with honest love & faith & belief & trust -- betrayal strikes the core of our very being. It can become a horrible bottomless black hole. I suspect many on CFL know this - first hand. The opposite is hope. I commend the heartfelt support, compassion, suggestions, CFL gives. That support is a lifeline of hope. But "betrayal" is not always betrayal. As Don and others said, sometimes intentions and belief were honest. It just didn't work out. Of course, knowing this, does not eliminate one's suffering. It reduces it. Some posts talk of the need for more time together - more opportunities to get to know each other - lessening the chance of a "stranger in my bed", etc. Some posts talk of the "language barrier" and "cultural difference barrier". I agree - sort of. But, I'm reminded of the fact that 50%+ of American marriages end in divorce anyway - among couples who *had* been together for many years .... couples in the same culture, speaking the same language. I guess this is all to say, the mystery of individual relationship and love is just that - a mystery of depth and beauty - notwithstanding the "how to books". To chinadave and Mark - I don't know you as others do, but along with other CFL members, I also deeply feel for you guys. I know you realize, what matters now is what you do with it all. Maybe you left out pieces - maybe you simply told it as you see it - maybe there are a lot of verifiable pieces - probably all of the above. But - as Ghostrider said (Sept 23,2005 01:37am) "Obviously, I don't know the details of your situation but it doesn't matter. I will just say this to you: don't be afraid of the truth.... the truth about your relationship and the truth about yourself." Sorry for the long post. Best wishes everyone. Vincent

Hello David, Welcome home with your Love. ....."she skipped around everywhere ..... stopped to smell the flowers .....tried to play with the squirrels" Beautiful! and Wow!- to both of you. Thank you for your many informed posts and reasoned thought. I'll be returning through POE JFK soon with my fiancee, so a simple (simpleton?) question if you have a chance. Which immigration line together? If you don't see this in a couple of days - I certainly understand. Best of the Bests to you.

Dennis143 Posted Today, 02:04 AM All the men here are attracted to Asian women as well. All of us have gone through frustration and sacrifice to love and unite with our special ladies half way around the world. And CFL members have been wonderful in emotional support and specfic "know how" to make it more bearable. We don't disagree at all.

This thread began with Roger's evocative, far reaching, title "The Beauty Thing and Chinese Women". For the most part, replies are about "make-up". The idea of "make-up" or "body-paint" goes back 1,000's of years, in all cultures. Sometimes it was religious, sometimes personal, sometimes to connect with nature, etc. I suggested in an above post that the "beauty thing" is more aesthetic, and less of an ego thing, for Chinese women than for American women. But for all women (and men too), it is sometimes simply a metaphor for something else going on, less evident. For some women, no make-up or little make-up is their way of presenting themselves to the world. These women have the benefit of receiving love from those who love them who see the extraordinary in the simple (often that is where the truly extraordinary resides, in the "simple"). However, we all wear "make-up". Perhaps not on our faces or bodies, but in the clothes we choose, the cars we drive, the furniture that surrounds us, the way we prepare/present our food, and much more. This "make-up" could be in the "aesthetic" realm, or could be a mask that fits a persona thing - as a way to sometimes appropriately or inappropriately hide, or it coul be a conforming to a cultural norm, or it could also be negatively narcissistic. Since CFL is about love and relationships, the bottom line I think is how or when or if, our "make-up" hinders or enhances our unique realness for love. After all, only real selves can give and receive real love. Roger - your choice of that great Billie Holiday thought (now yours because you chose it), *If I'm going to sing like someone else, then I don't need to sing at all.* speaks loudly to the importance of the unique, individual, authentic self - consequently to "love". And, to Jason, I agree with your wise thought that truth is found in extremes and in-between, and everywhere. But frankly, I don't think describing a woman as either jaw-breakingly beautiful or whose face is stop-a-clock (ugly), is helpful. As I see it, that's the opposite of what CFL is about, and the opposite of Billie Holiday's insight.

Carl and Bobsmith - thank you very much for the heads up. Frank, thanks for your generous pointed use of the word - to bring my lady "home". I realize my fiancee's daughter accompanying her mother is "clean" and is best. However, for a variety of reasons, that is not an option for October 2 when Niyan and I come to the US. If it is so that my lawyer is in error, and it is nearly impossible for daughter to follow within 1 year, then we have the option of her coming before expiration of current visa (Dec 28). My lawyer has been very good. I will check with her again. I hesitate to contact GZ at this time - fearing in part they might more easily ignore me, or be inconsistent with me, and not a lawyer. Of course I may be wrong. Gosh - in spite of so many issues that are clarified each day by wonderful CFL members, there are always other issues that defy clear answers - mainly it seems because Guangzhou makes changes along the way - as CFL members know so well. I'll let you know. Thanks guys.

I think there is a sometimes subtle difference between Chinese women and American women regarding attitudes about "beauty". It's my observation that the "beauty" you talk about, as held more important by Chinese women, (and it is, I believe), has more to do with the high value of aesthetics, than ego. As such, egos are not as easily offended. For aesthetics has a kind of neutrality - it just "is" - albeit often personal and subjective. Chinese seem to value aesthetics in many ways - flowers - colors - fashion - form - mountains - umbrellas too. I don't think the aesthetics aspect of beauty, as Chinese women see it, has as large of a role in attitudes about love as "beauty" (in the American sense) has in American women. Indeed, Chinese women seem to value the "good" more than American women, regarding love. Perhaps this idea about "the good" is somewhere imbedded in the psyche of Chinese culture. It's reported that 300-400 BC, when a young Sun Tsu asked "How does a man become satisfied with one woman?" - the reply was -- "A man becomes satisfied with one woman when he falls in love with her soul". And "when the woman falls in love with the man's soul - this then is the marriage of souls - and this marriage is to be held sacred in the hearts of those so blessed -- and tended to, as one would tend a garden of delicate flowers". I offer this as a very tiny piece of support about the imbeddedness aspect of "the good" . Of course these are overly vast generalizations, so I'm open to tossing it all out too!

Update regarding k2 following K1 within 1 year of K1 arrival, with K2 visa expiring 6 month after visa grant date. My lawyer says it will not be a problem to get a K2 "kind of visa extension". In my case, the K1/K2 was granted June 28, 2005. Therefore, according to the lawyer, since my fiancee's daughter will be attending a Chinese University this academic year, lawyer says shortly after December 28, 2005 (and before June 28 2006), it will be necessary to apply for this "kind of extension", and also that fiancee's daughter is to make an appointment (via my letter to be written with help of lawyer) and personally go again to the Consulate whereby the Consulate will put a new visa in her passport. Frank - I think perhaps this is a "voiding" option of the earlier visa , that you talked . I hope so. (and thank you Frank). Jim_Julian - I hope this helps you, possibly others too, now or down the road. I will post updates when I know more and in the thick of it. If any of you know of caveats, please let me know. Although I was with my fiancee when she and daughter got their visas June 28, my fiancee did not return with me because of certain circumstances. So, I now again leave for China 9/25 and return with my fiancee 10/2. Very short this time. (6th trip). I'm very excited - very happy - very loving . My faith and belief that personal love is possible and necessary at any age is - well - beautifully "overwhelming". Thanks CFL, for a whole lot.

I will -- I wish detailed information about this issue could be easily known .... (Thank you Frank for the "options")

Thank you Carl and Trigg - Your nimble serious posts are easily matched by your welcomed humor and friendly chides - really great! I have a question: Frank pointed out that my K2 step-daughter to be has 6 months to enter the US after issuance of K2 visa on June 28. Since she is currently enrolled in a university, can I apply for and get a visa extension for her beyond the 6 months - up to one year?

Hello Everyone. I'm new - though I feel I've been part of you for a while. . I want to first thank all of you for your invaluable help in my visits to CFL - particularly the "older" "timers" - who have graciously and sincerely given so much for a long time - Frank, Warpedboard, Don, Nooneufo, Trigg, David, and others. Your sense of "family" and selflessness reaching world-wide is remarkable. For me and my fiancee it's been and is, quite a journey, as is for the members and visitors to CFL. When I figure out how to post the timeline, I will do so. My fiancee and daughter were granted K1 and K2 visas June 28, 2005. A handful of easy questions. I will go again to China, 6th time, September 25, to accompany my fiancee to Philadelphia, via JFK, October 2. But because I understood that since my fiancee will come without her daughter (soon to be 19) at this time, it was necessary to have the Consulate separate their sealed "brown envelope" documents. Consequently she and daughter recently went to Guangzhou. I emailed Guangzhou asking them to facilitate the meeting with my fiancee. They answered me in 6 hours. (my 3rd email in 13 months). This is their complete reply. "Please be advised that if K2 applicant will go later than K1 applicant, K2 applicant can enter the port of entry of the U.S. with the visa and without the visa packet." So - it seems things have changed. Although the 13.5 hour one way train ride to Guangzhou from Guilin was needless, their reply was very much welcomed. Perhaps this information will help others. Thank you Frank for the good advice to make sure my fiancee's daughter has a copy of the emails for the Immigration Officer, just in case. I will bring the emails for our return trip October 2 as well. (again "just in case" the Immigration Officer gets confused seeing the brown envelope with both K1 & K2 documents.) Good wishes to you all for countless joys, Vincent