Bad behavior in Guangzhou

[lele]

I agree that China is much safer for the average citizen and especially a foreigner, but it is not necessarily a less violent society. It has the highest number of executions per year of any other country.

Amber,

 

While I usually find myself in agreement with you, I have to pass this time.

 

China has the 2nd most executions a year of any country, with the grand old USA still in the lead. **sigh**

[lele]

I just wanted to add a little also, so I hope I dont offend anyone. Please dont forget the censorship that goes on in other countries, so how can you know of all the problems?

This definitely is an issue in many countries.

 

However, the US is not at all the most open of nations. A recent report of press freedom found that the US was somewhere in the mid 30's (they ranked every nation). Now, while some will disagree with their methodology (as I do, since any gov't owned paper causes the nation to drop in rank, such as the BBC in England causing England to drop in rank), the fact is that I completely agree that there are many nations, particularly in western Europe and in some other places in the world, where there is far less censorship that the US.

 

How much did we hear about the more than 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq by the Americans since they arrived in 2003? How much do we hear about the fact that more than 120,000 US citizens die each year do to Air and Water Pollution?

 

These are facts that are on easy display in many corners of the world. And while our press is ok with many things, given that only 4 companies own more than 98% of the total press, and that these 4 companies generally cooperate with each other should set bells ringing!!!

 

However, I must admit that our press definitely does not support the hard civil servants who work in GZ. Maybe the idea of forming a PAC is a good call???

[awch]

Jason are you sure? While the US does have a lot of executions, aren't they usually a very long legal process and the execution, if it occurs, doesn't happen for years? In China it is very, very swift... also I think the number of crimes punishable by execution are much higher in China- such as prostitution, embezzlement and drug dealing. I don't actually know statistics on this.. so I might be wrong... but it seems to me that China wins.

[lele]

Jason are you sure? While the US does have a lot of executions, aren't they usually a very long legal process and the execution, if it occurs, doesn't happen for years? In China it is very, very swift... also I think the number of crimes punishable by execution are much higher in China- such as prostitution, embezzlement and drug dealing. I don't actually know statistics on this.. so I might be wrong... but it seems to me that China wins.

In some states, and at the Federal Level, the process takes quite a long time. However, in Texas, for example, the process is often quite fast.

And, when I say execution, I am considering all people killed by the judicial system, and hence this includes police shooting and killing suspects while in the process of arresting them. In the US, this type of killing is quite common, and since in china, police rarely use guns or other lethal weapons to capture their people for whatever happens after captured, this is less of a factor.

 

It is close. The last time I checked this stat it was only about a 20% difference. I could check again if you want! However, either way, +/-20% tells me that it is way too high in both nations.

[oregonknl]

Bahan, wasn't it Singapore where the lad was caned?

 

Interesting thread, because China serves as an example that we can compare to our own legal system.. The lack of "due process" in China --- very limited individual rights --- rights (of tranquility and order reserved for the society as a whole -- not the individual)

 

... What our founding fathers, and indeed even before --- Thomas Lock, William Blake described as: "The Rights Of Man" that wasn't plural --- each man.... Just very different from China...

 

This was one of the areas of discussion that I had with my future Father in Law during my summer visit (sorry, to refer back to these posts --- for those of you new --- he is a party member, and former college president -- and sharp..) This is actually a subject that is very often discussed within the party --- when is the right time to extend more personal rights??? And to what segment of the population? So as has been posted here --- say, travel rights to HK --- they are expanded, but at the same time controled.

 

But the party is keenly aware of the individual rights that we have (and the social problems --- as a result) --- the party is moving, ever so slowly towards greater personal freedoms... but trying to avoid the associated problems...

[awch]

Jason are you sure? While the US does have a lot of executions, aren't they usually a very long legal process and the execution, if it occurs, doesn't happen for years? In China it is very, very swift... also I think the number of crimes punishable by execution are much higher in China- such as prostitution, embezzlement and drug dealing. I don't actually know statistics on this.. so I might be wrong... but it seems to me that China wins.

In some states, and at the Federal Level, the process takes quite a long time. However, in Texas, for example, the process is often quite fast.

And, when I say execution, I am considering all people killed by the judicial system, and hence this includes police shooting and killing suspects while in the process of arresting them. In the US, this type of killing is quite common, and since in china, police rarely use guns or other lethal weapons to capture their people for whatever happens after captured, this is less of a factor.

 

In that case, you're right.... but here is a fact:

 

"- Singapore is believed to have the world's highest per capita execution rate. According to the UN Secretary-General's report on capital punishment, covering 1994 to 1999, Singapore had a rate of 13.57 executions per 1 million population.

 

- This is followed by Saudi Arabia (4.65), Belarus (3.20), Sierra Leone (2.84), Kyrgyzstan (2.80), Jordan (2.12) and China (2.01).

"

- The largest overall number of executions for the same period took place in China, followed in descending order by Iran, Saudi Arabia, the United States, Nigeria and Singapore."

 

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw04/040116ag.htm

 

So I guess we're both wrong!

[lele]

In that case, you're right.... but here is a fact:

 

"- Singapore is believed to have the world's highest per capita execution rate. According to the UN Secretary-General's report on capital punishment, covering 1994 to 1999, Singapore had a rate of 13.57 executions per 1 million population.

This I can completely believe!

 

There are many singaporian people here at MIT, and wow, they are obsessed with the rules. One was walking with me to the subway when I crossed on a red light (there were NO CARS coming from the other direction). He really freaked out!!!

 

I later asked him about why, and he told me he could go to jain for a long time for doing that back in S'pore. Yikes!!!

 

What I would like to know however, is really how low the crime rate is there? It seems like bribery and other financial crimes are still rife (at least from what my friend tells me).

 

Has anyone been to S'pore? What do you think of it?

[oregonknl]

The fact that guns are not readily available in China does not, from my reading, mean there are fewer violent homicides ... there is poison, stabbings arson, and lets not forget dynamite --- domestic disputes resolved with explosions that kill whole neighborhoods .... I seriously doubt that the per capita homicide rate in China is lower than in the US --- and thats with almost no private gun ownership --- the Han are a very creative people --- even on the dark side...

[sylinchinastill]

I haven't been to Singapore but my husband has a few times and he says that it is great on the first visit but on the second and third visits he started to think it is kind of restrictive- you can't go to clubs after a certain time at night (really early) and you can get in trouble for small things like throwing down a cigarette butt, spitting (good in my opinion), and jaywalking. He said that it looks a lot like the US- the city though.

I do feel safer in China- but in Shenzhen a friend of mine saw a girl get beat with her own umbrella. I think there is crime- not with guns- but violent crime- and they never put it on the news. Ever watch CCTV 9- you would think China was Shangrila (or Shangrilila as they say)- I think there is a lot that they don't tell you. I think the US is definitely out of control- I think it might be because of the guns, or financial diversity, or something like that. I also think our mindset is very different- but I don't think you could say that America is dangerous because we are aggressive- ever see a Chinese student walk to class? Ever see a Chinese student who has lived in the US walk to class? With their heads held high- I think we are aggressive- but that it is a good quality- I think it is something lacking in many Chinese when they don't want to ask the cab driver to roll the window up because it might bother them or to complain to someone when an injustice occurs- I love that we are able to do that here because of what we have- but the guns- the violence- I don't think you could say it is because, "America overall is this or that way." It is because of certain impulses that run throughout a small portion of society. And don't forget about the guy from Laos- not China I know but close- who gunned down 6 people. My husband says that the first person shot at him, "What about the other five?" I asked, "Oh- they weren't carrying guns." (maybe this should be in the language issues post)

[oregonknl]

Woooo~!!

 

Lele you are WAAAAAAYYYY off the mark on Executions!!!!!!

 

The US has something like 500 per year ---- China has about 3,000 (or more) Haven't figured the per capita --- but I'm sure its still more in China.. And by the way, the figure for China, if a remeber correctly, was an official PRC figure.....

[MarkLuvsShuPing]

Remember the old experiment where they put rats in a big cage and everything was fine until the cage got crowded? Not to compare Chinese people to rats, but there are a lot of people in China. It always suprises me that more people aren't fighting and killing each other on the street there.

 

Maybe it's their quick and severe punishment for crimes.

[lele]

The fact that guns are not readily available in China does not, from my reading, mean there are fewer violent homicides ...  there is poison, stabbings arson, and lets not forget dynamite --- domestic disputes resolved with explosions that kill whole neighborhoods ....  I seriously doubt that the per capita homicide rate in China is lower than in the US --- and thats with almost no private gun ownership --- the Han are a very creative people --- even on the dark side...

The total homicide rate is lower in China than it is in the US. I just had a link to the site. However, when I claim homicide, I am not looking at work-place related deaths. Nor am I considering deaths of civilians associated with military action. The work-place related deaths would cause china to rise, but the other would place america way ahead of china.

 

Hence, if the absolute number is greater, the per capita rate must be greater.

 

I think that using European Nation states is a much better example...

[oregonknl]

Well, Geezz Lele,

 

I think that from all the posts here --- particularly those of Candle members living in China, and with a "heads up" attitude about reporting in China --- how are you going to get honest statistics about homicide in China!?!?

 

Everyone in the west thought it was a big break through (for honest reporting) when the Chinese government admitted the sub tragedy --- but on the flip side, there was SARS, festering in Beijing and it took Time Inc. to break that story...

 

Have you read ONE story in the Chinese press about girl infantcide??? Yet, statistically, it has to be occuring at a fairly high level --- and my inside sources (western) confirm that...

[oregonknl]

OK, I'm going back through my physical archive on China, and I find this article dated 6-20-01 by Craig S. Smith (NYTNS)

 

"THE DEATH PENALTY: CHINA'S HEAVY HAND"

 

Its about the execution of Jin Ruchao, who's string of bombings killed 108 people... Others who sold him the dynamite were also put to death --- and this goes directly to the "due process" problem in China --- they thought he was a quarry owner, and needed the explosives for that purpose --- didn't help their cause....

 

But this was before China's crack down on corruption --- the numbers are much higher now --- figures cited in the article are by Amneesty International: Executions: US: 85,

China: 1,000

[lele]

Well, Geezz  Lele,

 

I think that from all the posts here --- particularly those of Candle members living in China, and with a "heads up" attitude about reporting in China --- how are you going to get honest statistics about homicide in China!?!? 

 

Everyone in the west thought it was a big break through (for honest reporting) when the Chinese government admitted the sub tragedy --- but on the flip side, there was SARS, festering in Beijing and it took Time Inc. to break that story...

 

Have you read ONE story in the Chinese press about girl infantcide??? Yet, statistically, it has to be occuring at a fairly high level --- and my inside sources (western) confirm that...

I have read stories in the chinese press about the fact that there is a 114:100 ratio of boys to girls. And I know enough from science to know that it should be within 100:102 - 102:100, so I have a heads up that there is a selection bias. I do wish that they were more forward about it however!

 

However, did you read in the news that Air Pollution in both China and in the US cause more fatailities each year than do all murders and car accidents combined (the two typically reported preventable forms of death)??? That was in the lancelet, the world's premire medical journal. It was all over the news in England. It even made it into the chinese news (minded though on the english language version sites). However, it was never mentioned in the US. Odd, huh?

 

I personally think that the news is biased in both nations...so we should not use the US as a comparison. In china, the state has some sway over it, and in the US some companies have some sway over it.

 

Just like with the execution rate. In the US, murder by the state is execution. Hence, if a cop shoots someone, that is an execution. When a military person kills a civilian, that is an execution. It was these rates summed together that I was quoting. Sorry for any confusion!

 

Also, I mean no offence to anyone, I am just trying to define the terms clearly that I am using!!!

 

LeLe