The Red Thread --adopting in China.

[oregonknl]

From Dave's post -- (Dave and JM on their first trip to Beijing)

 

"We went to some park and saw 10 US couples pushing their newly adopted babies around in strollers. The looks on their faces sadi it all! They were so happy to have a new baby. It was really quite sweet."

 

Yes, Dave, it IS quite sweet!

 

Partly because it came after a very long wait --- much longer than the wait for a baby "the old fashioned way" In my case the first adoption process started in the fall of 1995, and was not complete until I met my first daughter Jet-- (Tai Chun Mei, then just turned age 2) in March of 1997/Nanjing. Jet was totally loyal to her orphanage care givers: "Mama Day Tah" and "Mama Hey Hey" She hated Me.... She just barely would let my then wife, Pat touch her...

 

And she cried non-stop from the time that she was first placed in my arms in the morning -- tense and stiff as a piece of cordwood -- until about 9 pm. that night...

 

...finally, she was quietly in mourning, for an orphanage life that she finally realized was behind her, and nothing that she could understand at that time that was to come...

 

... We didn't even know if she could speak...

 

... And the truth was, we were exhausted too... So by 10:30, we placed her in her crib, and tumbled into bed ourselves, with sleep coming on fast....

 

Then, from the crib: Jet started singing softly, a Chinese lullaby to give herself comfort... immediately after that she was asleep....

 

---Kim

[oregonknl]

Probably should add: We were in Nanjing with 11 other couples ... all getting infants..

[Trigg]

In my case the first adoption process started in the fall of  1995, and was not complete until I met my first daughter Jet-- (Tai Chun Mei, then just turned age 2) ---Kim

Hey Kim,

Cool, a baby Jet. How did you come you call her Jet? I have a friend who adapted about two years ago in china. Her daughters name is also Mei. She told me that they get their name from the orphanage they come from and that all the girls at the orphanage were named Mei. I dunno if this is correct but it is an interesting bit of trivia anyway. My friend is a child psychiatrist and was fascinated how her new daughter showed sings of receiving a lot of love from her orphanage. She wanted me to stop in on my next trip and thank the folks there. sounds like jet received the same love. Nothin beats a good start does it? well, good luck with that barrel full of youngsters. I just thought i would share my friends experiences, they sound similar to yours--maybe

[oregonknl]

Hey Trigg,

 

You are absolutely right.

 

The girls almost always take the name of the orphanage as their family name.

 

In Jet's case: "Tai Chun Mei" the family name is Tai for the orphanage in Taizhou. (all of the parents we traveled with who got their girls out of that orphanage had Tai as a family name -- one is known today as "Tai "-- first name)

 

So your friend's child probably came from a city that had Mei as a prefix.

 

Jet's American name is typical of those who adopt in China: Elements of her Chinese name are combined (usually, as a middle name). Jet Chun Mei Lathrop.

 

As you know, many Chinese characters can be pronounced the same way, and it is within the context of other characters that they make sense. In Jet's case Chun Mei means plum blossom, but the literal translation would be spring plum.

 

We gave her Jet as a first name for three reasons: The obvious: This girl has thick Jet-Black hair ---even by Han standards! Jet is a gem stone that is said in some cultures to protect a young child.

 

And of course, she came home to Portland on a jet..

 

(You said something about that transformation from soldier to civilian on such a flight --sorry I can't quote it at the moment..)

 

--Kim

[oregonknl]

Trigg,

 

Probably should add this: Jet came out of a "hard scrabble" orphanage.

 

They vary widely in China, but all are MUCH better than they were in 1997. The Chinese people, and, ARE YOU LISTENING DAVE !?---- The central Communist government have made great progress in the development of these institutions.

 

Jet was simply loyal to her caregivers --- and as you would expect at age 2, terrified to be displaced a second time--(she didn't remember the first time)

 

(thankfully she is now loyal to her parents in much the same way)

 

--Kim

[MarkLuvsShuPing]

Hey Trigg,

 

You are absolutely right.

 

Hey! Trigg finally got something right!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Kim, thanks for sharing your story. It really warms my heart. I can read the love you have for Jet behind the words of your story. How old is she now?

 

Mark

[Trigg]

Hey!  Trigg finally got something right!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Kim, thanks for sharing your story.  It really warms my heart.  I can read the love you have for Jet behind the words of your story.  How old is she now?

 

Mark

Well, Mark admits someone was right other than himself?? is the sky falling??

 

 

HEY MARK, You asked Kim how old Jet is. Read his quote below and get out your fuzzy math calculator.

 

 

"In my case the first adoption process started in the fall of 1995, and was not complete until I met my first daughter Jet-- (Tai Hun Mei, then just turned age 2) in March of 1997/Nanjing."

 

Sorry Kim, Mark just keeps on giving me fodder for such things. I do agree with Mark though (yuck what is that nasty taste in my mouth) Hearing you talk about Jet is heart warming and the love does permeate throughout the thread. Some times we need to have out heartstrings plucked so we can keep in mind what is really important.

Trigg

[Dave G.]

Trigg,

 

Probably should add this:  Jet came out of a "hard scrabble" orphanage.

 

They vary widely in China, but all are MUCH better than they were in 1997.  The Chinese  people, and, ARE YOU LISTENING DAVE !?---- The central Communist government have made great progress in the development of these institutions. 

 

Jet was simply loyal to her caregivers --- and as you would expect at age 2, terrified to be displaced a second time--(she didn't remember the first time) 

 

(thankfully she is now loyal to her parents in much the same way)

 

--Kim

Who, me? I love a challenge.

 

Great strides? Yeah....right. The bottom line for US couples is that they get beautiful babies. Chinese children are adorable (is that a racist remark???).

 

Somethings you're forgetting. First, you never included all the fees you had to pay. How much goes to China, to the parents of the baby, etc.? Great pressure has been put on China regarding their human rights stuff. Girls are still considered to be second class. You've adopted two....both girls? Rather than admit they treat unwanted girls with distain and rather than deal with the horrible conditions in orphanages, China has opted to adopte their children out to others...for large sums of money. Is that really the solution?

 

When my baby was born and he turned out to be a boy, my wife's family offered their congratulations. Not to my wife...but to me. Congratulations to me for having a son. Even my wife noted no one congratulated her for cranking a kid out. Even as a Chinese, her feelings were hurt. She joked, saying "What did you do? I was the one in labor."

 

Sure...I'd rather see babies adopted than killed. But, I'd also rather see China change their harsh "one baby" rule. As long as couples are allowed only one and as long as the penalties are so strict if a second one comes along, they will continue to treat a new, special life as trash. Of course, that is their way. It's really none of my business.

[oregonknl]

Ahhhh, My first chance to straighten Dave out ~!

 

"Chinese children are adorable (is that a racist remark?)"

 

Now Dave--- to the meaning of the title of this topic -- you'll like this -- "The Red Thread" is a saying among some Han (of course, the overwhelming, and extremely tight ethnic group--also of course, the largest in the world)

 

The Red Thread is everything that binds this group together -- what it means to be Chinese... While on one those field trips with our new kids like what you saw: (Nanjing, not Beijing) Several women approached one of the couples with an infant. One woman's comments in Mandarin: Ahhhhhh!! Such a lucky baby! Going to America! And such a lucky family! To now have some Han Chinese! Will improve your family's genes!

 

)

 

so is THAT racist?

 

do we care?

 

its funny, and in a way truthful-- I think we all think at the very least, that the Han are a beautiful people -- or why would we be bothering with all this?

 

More later, Jet wants breakfast....

[Dave G.]

Ahhhh, My first chance to straighten Dave out ~!

 

"Chinese children are adorable (is that a racist remark?)"

 

Now Dave--- to the meaning of the title of this topic -- you'll like this -- "The Red Thread" is a saying among some Han (of course, the overwhelming, and extremely tight ethnic group--also of course, the largest in the world) 

 

The Red Thread is everything that binds this group together -- what it means to be Chinese...  While on one those field trips with our new kids like what you saw: (Nanjing, not Beijing)  Several women approached  one of the couples with an infant.  One woman's comments in Mandarin:  Ahhhhhh!!  Such a lucky baby!  Going to America!  And such a lucky family!  To now have some Han Chinese!  Will improve your family's genes!

 

) 

 

so is THAT racist?

 

do we care? 

 

its funny, and in a way truthful--  I think we all think at the very least, that the Han are a beautiful people -- or why would we be bothering with all this?

 

More later, Jet wants breakfast....

I've never figured out the Han thing. Still don't.

[oregonknl]

Ok, Back..

 

Dave--- here are some factual corrections, I'll try to take your points in order.

 

Fees: Its expensive, can't argue that ( about $15,000 start to finish), but less than 1/3 to China. Most of the fees are to the US adoption agency, legal expences, good ol' Uncle Sam --(Consulate in GZ) and travel. The big lump sum is $3000 that goes directly to the orphanage --- it is an incentive by the national oversight agency in Beijing CCAA to place orphans. And CCAA has strict standards for the conditions in an orphanage BEFORE they can place children with foreigners. CCAA has total control in China there are no "shaddow agencies" anymore like there still are particularly in South America, that get children by hook or by crook, and the budget of every orphanage in China is reviewed by CCAA. The way the $3000 US is used (yes, it is big money of course in China) must be reflected and approved in the orphanage's budget. Orphanage's can't get around the CCAA, because the kids are assigned BY CCAA, which has a record of every kid in every orphanage in China.

 

Parents of the children get nothing because the babies (yes, usually girl infants) are abandoned, and their identity is unknown. If it were known, the parents would be in big trouble ---just like they would be here in the US. For the first three months the babies can not even be considered for adoption because there is a police investigation to try to identify the child (usually not much of one, because usually there isn't much evidence to go on), and also, to give the parents a chance to locate the child if they reconsider their actions, which happens infrequently. Occasionally, children are known, and placed in the orphanages after the death of parents (usually som local disaster that affects a whole area, like the recent gas leak in the Chengdu area. These children are immediately available for adoption.

 

Dave, Chinese officials don't care what the west says about Chinese human rights. And maybe you have noticed, they are now putting US and western rights violations back in our face everytime our "Human rights" report comes out on China. The Communist government is simply being practical. The "one child" rule was put into place after years of debate, but in response to the great famines of 1959-60. it is the easiest thing in the world for the US to condem this rule from a position of our short history were there has NEVER been a major famine, such is the bounty of this land that we live in (and so little is the weight of our population and thus responsibilty or government has for feeding it).

 

Dave, the link between the killing of newborn girls and the Communist One-Child rule is a western urban myth.

 

When the Communists were debating this policy, they recognized that it would put even more pressure in the rural areas -- where vitually all the infantcide has occured since the Communist took power, and put a rather strict end to it in the cities --

 

Dave, it has been the Communists that have offically ended the second-class status of woman when Mao issued his now famous edict: "Girls and Women Hold Up Half The Sky" Long before that even, the Communists were putting an end to the Nationalist's practaces, such as footbinding for sexual attraction..

 

Infantcide took place for thousands of years before the Communists took power -- particularly if the family didn't get a boy. So Dave, in rural areas the Communists totally EXEMPTED these areas! Rural families can still have as many children as they want! Many rural peasants are opting out of more children --why? Advances in farming techniques require less manual labor, and the market ecconomy --- Material advantages -- brought since Deng are reaching everywhere --- and a new TV may be higher on the list than a new kid...

 

The orphanages are crowded, but that is actually a good sign in a way, the Communists have let it be known, you don't need to kill your baby, we will take care of it-- and about 70% have been upgraded to western standards in the last several years, but there is still a shortage of workers ---ratio to infants, particularly.

 

There are real signs that the situation is turning around, we hold that information for another time...

 

(westerners adoptonly a very small percentage of China's orphans -- most are adopted, as you expect, by Chinese---LOTS cheaper for them to do it too)

 

Kim

[oregonknl]

Hey Mark,

 

Thanks, Jet turned 9 in March (hard for even me to believe -- already!!) Her sister, Eve From Anhui province just turned 7...

 

--Kim

[Dave G.]

Ok, Back..

 

Dave---  here are some factual corrections, I'll try to take your points in order.

 

Fees:  Its expensive, can't argue that ( about $15,000 start to finish), but less than 1/3 to China.  Most of the fees are to the US adoption agency, legal expences, good ol' Uncle Sam --(Consulate in GZ) and travel.  The big lump sum is $3000 that goes directly to the orphanage --- it is an incentive by the national oversight agency in Beijing CCAA to place orphans.  And CCAA has strict standards for the conditions in an orphanage BEFORE they can place children with foreigners.  CCAA has total control in China there are no "shaddow agencies" anymore like there still are particularly in South America, that get children by hook or by crook, and the budget of every orphanage in China is reviewed by CCAA.  The way the $3000 US is used (yes, it is big money of course in China) must be reflected and approved in the orphanage's budget.  Orphanage's can't get around the CCAA, because the kids are assigned BY CCAA, which has a record of every kid in every orphanage in China. 

 

Parents of the children get nothing because the babies (yes, usually girl infants) are abandoned, and their identity is unknown.  If it were known, the parents would be in big trouble ---just like they would be here in the US. For the first three months the babies can not even be considered for adoption because there is a police investigation to try to identify the child (usually not much of one, because usually there isn't much evidence to go on), and also, to give the parents a chance to locate the child if they reconsider their actions, which happens infrequently.  Occasionally, children are known, and placed in the orphanages after the death of parents (usually som local disaster that affects a whole area, like the recent gas leak in the Chengdu area.  These children are immediately available for adoption.

 

Dave, Chinese officials don't care what the west says about Chinese human rights.  And maybe you have noticed, they are now putting US and western rights violations back in our face everytime our "Human rights" report comes out on China.  The Communist government is simply being practical.  The "one child" rule was put into place after years of debate, but in response to the great famines of 1959-60. it is the easiest thing in the world for  the US to condem this rule from a position of our short history were there has NEVER been a major famine, such is the bounty of this land that we live in (and so little is the weight of our population and thus responsibilty or government has for feeding it).

 

Dave, the link between the killing of newborn girls and the Communist One-Child rule is a western urban  myth. 

 

When the Communists were debating this policy, they recognized that it would put even more pressure in the rural areas -- where vitually all the infantcide has occured since the Communist took power, and put a rather strict end to it in the cities --

 

Dave, it has been the Communists that have offically ended the second-class status of woman when Mao issued his now famous edict:  "Girls and Women Hold Up Half The Sky" Long before that even, the Communists were putting an end to the Nationalist's practaces, such as footbinding for sexual attraction..

 

Infantcide took place for thousands of years before the Communists took power -- particularly if the family didn't get a boy.  So Dave, in rural areas the Communists totally EXEMPTED these areas!  Rural families can still have as many children as they want!  Many rural peasants are opting out of more children --why? Advances in farming techniques require less manual labor, and the market ecconomy --- Material advantages -- brought since Deng are reaching everywhere --- and a new TV may be higher on the list than a new kid...

 

The orphanages are crowded, but that is actually a good sign in a way, the Communists have let it be known, you don't need to kill your baby, we will take care of it-- and about 70% have been upgraded to western standards in the last several years, but there is still a shortage of workers ---ratio to infants, particularly. 

 

There are real signs that the situation is turning around, we hold that information for another time...

 

(westerners adoptonly a very small percentage of China's orphans -- most are adopted, as you expect, by Chinese---LOTS cheaper for them to do it too)

 

Kim

Well...thanks for setting me straight. It's all crystal clear now. Not...

 

1. Do you really think all the $3k goes to the orphanage? Probably not. My bet is that most of it is being pocketed by Chinese officials. How many orphanages did you see? One? Perhaps they keep one nice for show. The rest? My wife says they're horrible.

 

2. China still kills babies with little thought. If born deformed, they kill it on the spot. Women are not allowed ultrasounds. Why? If a girl, they'll want to abort it and try again for a son.

 

3. I'm always impressed by the Chinese. They are so clever. They have taken what they see as refuse and turned it into a profitable, exportable commodity.

 

4. Women not second class anymore? Are you sure we went to the same China? Males are still considered far better than girls. With the one-baby rule, that's become even more so. When my son was born, no one congradulated my wife. My Chinese family only congratulated me...for having a son. Had we gotten a girl, the reaction would have been, "That's nice..." Hell...the family had a huge celebration in honor of my son in China. Very sweet, but sad in a way.

 

5. One thing you said that I'm in the most agreement with you on is this: Your girls are so lucky to have a loving dad like you. I mean that with all my heart. And, like the ladies in Nanning said, they are lucky to be given a life where they can flourish.

[oregonknl]

Hi Dave,

 

Back again... So Dave, did you read what I said about the CCAA National structure?

 

In the last 5 or 6 years it has become very hard for orphanage directors to pocket any of the $3000 directed to their orphanage.. Impossible? probably not.

 

But you might be surprised to see the "bricks and mortar" improvements ... Are alot of those due to rich Americans adopting Chinese orphans (and paying the $3000.00)? GEEEEEZZZZ I HOPE SO!!

 

So how many orphanages has your wife been in? And more importantly --when? if it was before 5 years ago, ( even two years ago) her information is obsolete. If you read what I wrote closely, I will admit that there is still often (but not always) a problem with staffing.

 

Dave, you can "Take to the Bank" what I am telling you on this subject --- I can't tell you exactly why I know what I know, but I will tell you I have a very close contact who is in, on average, 10 orphanages per year, and they are widely distributed throughout China.

 

By the grace of God, this person happened to be In the orphanage that my second daughter was in ---AT THE TIME THAT SHE WAS ASSIGNED BY THE CCAA TO US~!

 

This person knew and played with my second daughter, Eve, even before I met her ---Grace of God --- what are the chances of that happening in a country with about 2 million orphans?

 

Dave, I think we may have a certain "Failure To Communicate" problem here --to some extent. ... You are talking cultural -- and I am agree with you on some things culturally, but what I have been communicating to you is the policy ---implemented--- by the Chinese Communist Government.

 

...the Communists have, and are pushing equality between the sexes in China.

 

Maybe you remember the hard-ass spokesman for the PRC Government during the the spy plane incident? (oh, sorry, I misspoke it was a woman)....

 

Dave, I know that you treasure your son -- care to talk about him?

 

Yes, it is Asian to celebrate a son more than a daughter, but "Boy's Day" is a Japanese tradition, not so much in China....

 

 

----Kim

[Dave G.]

Hi Dave,

 

Back again...  So Dave, did you read what I said about the CCAA National structure?

 

In the last 5 or 6 years it has become very hard for orphanage directors to pocket any of the $3000 directed to their orphanage.. Impossible?  probably not. 

 

But you might be surprised to see the "bricks and mortar" improvements ... Are alot of those due to rich Americans  adopting Chinese orphans (and paying the $3000.00)?  GEEEEEZZZZ I HOPE SO!!

 

So how many orphanages has your wife been in?  And more importantly --when?  if it was before 5 years ago,  ( even two years ago) her information is obsolete.  If you read what I wrote closely, I will admit that there is still often (but not always) a problem with staffing.

 

Dave, you can "Take to the Bank" what I am telling you on this subject --- I can't tell you exactly why I know what I know, but I will tell you I have a very close contact who is in, on average, 10 orphanages per year, and they are widely distributed throughout China.

 

By the grace of God, this person happened to be In the orphanage that my second daughter was in ---AT THE TIME THAT SHE WAS ASSIGNED BY THE CCAA TO US~! 

 

This person  knew and played with my second daughter, Eve, even before I met her ---Grace of God --- what are the chances of that happening in a country with about 2 million orphans?

 

Dave, I think we may have  a certain "Failure To Communicate" problem here --to some extent. ... You are talking cultural -- and I am agree with you on some things culturally, but what I have been communicating to you is the policy ---implemented--- by the Chinese Communist Government.

 

...the Communists have, and are pushing equality between the sexes in China. 

 

Maybe you remember the hard-ass spokesman for the PRC Government during the the spy plane incident?  (oh, sorry, I misspoke it was a woman)....

 

Dave, I know that you treasure your son -- care to talk about him?

 

Yes, it is Asian to celebrate a son more than a daughter, but "Boy's Day"  is a Japanese tradition, not so much in China....

 

 

----Kim

Perhaps we just have different experiences in China. Since my wife is Chinese and we've traveled through much of it, I trust my instincts and listen closely to what she says.

 

Do I know about the spy plane? Bet you don't remember where it happened. I visited the place...two months after the fact. When I realized where I was, my butt puckered. But, we had great chats with the locals. They actually praised the US for having "won" the incident. I said they were wrong. The Chinese caused us to lose global face. They liked that answer.

 

Care to talk about my son? PJ doesn't have enough room on his hard drive for that. He's just the post perfect baby. Nuff said.

 

I've never seen an orphanage. Don't care to. I fear it'll make me angry.

 

Good night.....