RFE

[wawster]

Well, I got the RFE that I was half expecting, instead of a NOA2.

I'm trying to see this as a blessing in disguise...

 

The problem is, the USCIS won't tell you online what the RFE is for - you have to wait for the letter to show up in your mailbox. With that being the case, it spawns a few questions. I expect that they're easy to answer.

 

I have prepared a goodly amount of relationship evidence with my wife. 2 trips there so far, with all the associate plane tickets, boarding passes, hotel receipts, and a lot of pictures. I've put those all in a lengthy doc that tells the story of the visits and time with the family. I've written a EOR letter, and have a year's worth of chat records, email records, money transfer records, etc. I'm hoping that I can send these in with the response for the RFE.

 

But what if the RFE is for something completely unrelated to relationship evidence? Let's say, for sake of argument, that the RFE is due to a hiccup on Yifang's passport photos or some-such. Would I still be able to send in all the additional relationship evidence along with the requested item and have it be accepted?

 

Secondly, once this evidence and/or requested info is sent, does anyone know if they look at it right away, or if we sit for another 5-6 months in the queue? My cheetohs are running low...might have to switch to shots of bourbon...LOL

 

Thanks folks!

[tsap seui]

I'd send everything, I had missed the first time, in to them. You won't have another chance. I'm sure they have scanned everything you've sent in so far, but man it don't hurt to send them in more stuff. They have to scan in whatever info the RFE is asking for....give them a little more work. You will sleep better, need less booze, and dadblame cheetoh's, and your case will be as complete as you can make it. I'd look at the RFE as a blessing. Sorry to see you miss some items on the first go around but you have a second chance.

 

Now think, what other worthwhile info can you send in? Did you send in good photos of you and her family members together? In my book photos with family are the best of all. Anyone can submit photos of you and some gal looking at "stuff"...the real deal is you with your wife and her family members. And yes, I am a BIG proponent of EOR letters.

 

Go gettum tiger, show the USCIS, and more importantly the State Department jes how bona fide your relationship really is. Good luck.

 

tsap seui

My second application was like a 600 page Clive Cussler book....full of excitement, and the good guys won out in the end...not the State Department.

[wawster]

LOL...Tsap...you continually give me a grin, buddy.

 

Thanks for the advice. And yeah, I have a ton of photos with the family. Not sent in on the first go-round, but I have them now. I had either not understood, or misinterpreted what was to be sent in on the I-130 the first time, so the relationship evidence was pretty sparse. That's why I kinda expected the RFE. I'm including a lot of those in the doc I made, but maybe I should just flood the USCIS with pics...I have several hundred of us with the family. Also, I'm thinking to send the entire chat records instead of just the logged times and dates of chat entries....that in itself is about 500 pages or so.....

[wawster]

Ok...got the RFE.in the mail, and it's not too bad. The USCIS is asking for a formal divorce certificate from the marriage registry. When Yifang got divorced 17 years ago, it went to the courts, and she got a civil mediation agreement. She says they only give you a divorce certificate from the marriage registry if the divorce was uncontested....clean and easy. If it went to court, like hers did, there's a civil mediation agreement that is hashed out and signed off by the court. That is what she has. But, I figure it's not a big deal. We'll go to the court and/or the marriage registry and have them make up a certificate like the USCIS wants.

But this gives me a huge opportunity to give them all my relationship evidence now. My stack is about 3 inches thick at the moment. I have:

 

-EOR Letter

- a 100 page doc detailing my trips there, with tons of pics of us with the family and her friends, hotel receipts, plane tickets, train tickets, boarding passes, etc.

- A listing of emails we've sent back and forth...several hundred

-Support docs showing my money transfers to Yifang, and her pickups.

-receipts for engagement ring, wedding ring, etc.

-receipts for my Mandarin lessons, and her English lessons

-Docs showing Yifang as the beneficiary of my retirement plan

 

But here's the big question. Should I include all of our chat transcripts or just the listings of the chat entries for each of us with date and time? The latter is about 120 pages, triple columns. I imported the chat transcripts into excel, and extracted the date and time of each chat entry with the associated name of me or Yifang. This would give the chat logs without giving them all of our private conversations. If I use the full chat message logs, it's easily 500 or more pages....but the logs themselves are only 120.

 

Thoughts?

[tsap seui]

Waster, I don't know what to say here, other than just to go with your heart man. I haven't looked for my 600 plus page initial application for our second attempt. I know I didn't send too many emails, just the starting ones and a few different months along the trail of 4 years of communication until I sent in the application. As we had almost stopped with emails and went to the phone as Wenyan's English got better and better. I sent in the complete phone records that showed twice a day phone calls from me. I took each trip and labeled it Trip One--trough Trip 6 (including plane tickets, a few photos of us together with her family and friends. Trying to remember all I sent in...heck, during my starting time on Candle there was a scare about your woman going to her interview and not being able to speak good enough English, so, I sent them a one hour video of Wenyan and I talking in English to each other in a hotel room....LOL

 

I went against conventional wisdom on Candle at the time, of not sending in an encyclopedia amount of info, and I sent them a helluva lot of material. Then again, I had 4 freakin' years of information about our "bona fide relationship" and one denial (a K-1) so I wasn't the normal feller passing through Candle. Plus, I had spent those years studying on Candle for every single aspect of what had gone wrong with different folk's applications when they went to their interview. I listed every aspect and addressed each one of them COMPLETELY. I laugh now that my wife, just like at her first interview, knew as much about what to do if given a blue slip as she did about the info needed for the interview. Unfortunately when she got that blue slip at the first interview, they didn't ask for any additional info or any questions....told her they needed to review her case....dammit, she was loaded with every detail that anyone had ever been asked for with a blue slip. She stayed in front of that bitch who had treated she and our 10 year old son so rudely in her 23 question interview, and asked again and again "what did she need to see", that "she had everything she could ask for right there, right now."

 

So, as you can see, I had her loaded with enough info to smother the damn bastards in the State Department there in Guangzhou for that second interview. In my initial interview for the IR-1, along with a 3 page index of what I had compiled, I even wrote a short note to the USCIS examiner "apologizing for the lengthy application, that most all of it was meant for the State Department interviewer"...LOL

 

That is why I saw, go with your heart. I read and studied on Candle, asked questions....and went with my heart on what to send in. I made an application that should my wife get denied, I would not have to lose any sleep over what else I "could or should" have sent in. No stone unturned, and fully exposed, buddy.

 

They deny people with the words "didn't show a bona fide relationship". F them. I had a four year relationship with this girl and I had nothing left to send them assholes but photos of us in bed each time we had sex.. You want a bona fide relationship? You got it!!!!!!!!!

 

For what it is worth.....at that second interview the America woman (behind the bullet proof glass that protects the Chinese women for the America State Department workers) this time the American was all laughs and giggles to Wenyan and Fengqi. She said hello to them both and asked Fengqi if he liked his step father? He said "yes" and she said okay you are both approved. Wenyan didn't understand and tried to give the lady more info....until Fengqi shook her arm and said "Mother, we have the visas." All three of them had a good laugh and that was the interview.

 

Good luck Wawster. Keep your spirits up and send in what your heart tells you to. I know this is a very trying time and that you want to do it right the first time. I did it right the first time and still got a denial and a lot of pain....all over nothing, as it turned out, but the luck of the damn State Department "lucky draw". You see my friend, in the end, it isn't about your application, it is all about how lucky you are that day. Everybody gets the visa, it is just a matter of when??? It is not about how big or how sparse your application is, at all!!!

 

You are going to be fine , my boy.

 

tsap seui

 

I gotta say man, Wenyan came runnning into my office to see what I was laugh so hard about.... this time. Your 100 page EOR letter takes the cake!!!!! You win the prize!!!!!! My EOR letter was only 15 pages or so....LOL Your prize is this....While I was typing this I got interrupted by some India guy on the phone, calling from a Washington, DC number. He thought my name was Wenyan and he told me that the government had awarded me $7,000 for being a good citizen and paying my taxes on time, whatever. As soon as I get that $7,000 I'll send it to you. This is the second time in two months that this bunch of India well wishers from the American government have called to tell me...er ah....Wenyan that "he" has been awarded $7,000 "tax free" from the American government. Maybe this time I'll call the awards phone number and give them the secret code number he gave me so they can send the money to a local Walmart for me to pick up. I'll do that and send you your "prize" money....when I, Wenyan, gets it. I jes loves America.

Opps,gotta run, my India friend is calling again, probably wants to see if'n I got your money yet.

[wawster]

Well...a wrinkle....

The RFE was due to the USCIS not liking the civil mediation agreement for Yifang's divorce that was issued by the court. They want a different certificate, although they don't say what that certificate is. I can only assume it is a divorce certificate issued by the Marriage Registry.

The problem here is that this type of certificate is only issued when there is a clean, tidy divorce, where the two people walk into the marriage registry and tell them that they want a divorce. If there is any protestation, then it goes to the court, and they hammer out a civil mediation agreement. So, Yifang does not have the type of certificate that the USCIS is asking for. She has the civil mediation agreement.

She went to the courts today, and the marriage registry. The court in Lanshan told her that what she has is the legal declaration of divorce. It has the same effect legally in china as the tidy divorce certificate. The Marriage Registry in Lanshan told her that what she has is proof of divorce, and they do not issue the other document in the case of a court-contested divorce.

So now, how do we proceed? What she has is proof in China of a divorce, and she's not getting something different (they say, at least, in the small town where she lives). The USCIS says it wants something else, and for me not to re-send them the civil mediation agreement. We're kinda stuck.

We will continue to try and persuade the marriage registry that we need an updated divorce certificate. if they give one to us, it will be dated today, but should show that the divorce took place in 1997. We'll talk to the marriage registry in Changsha - I get the feeling that a lot of this trouble is due to dealing with the marriage registry and courts of a small, isolated town.

But what if they say that what we have is the legal document, and no other is needed or will be issued? Any ideas of how we proceed from here? This has to be a fairly common issue, i would think.

[wawster]

and tsap...you always make me grin, man! I appreciate the smiles. I looked at just how many pages the chat transcripts would be...went to print them out.

err...maybe not...they were not 500 pages....they were 2700 pages... LOL!

 

and the free money...way cool!

I'll take it!

I have a WalMart near by...LOL!

I'll send you the number there so that the Indian guy from our government can transfer it over!

woo hoo! gotta love the government!

[Randy W]

 

Well...a wrinkle....

The RFE was due to the USCIS not liking the civil mediation agreement for Yifang's divorce that was issued by the court. They want a different certificate, although they don't say what that certificate is. I can only assume it is a divorce certificate issued by the Marriage Registry.

The problem here is that this type of certificate is only issued when there is a clean, tidy divorce, where the two people walk into the marriage registry and tell them that they want a divorce. If there is any protestation, then it goes to the court, and they hammer out a civil mediation agreement. So, Yifang does not have the type of certificate that the USCIS is asking for. She has the civil mediation agreement.

She went to the courts today, and the marriage registry. The court in Lanshan told her that what she has is the legal declaration of divorce. It has the same effect legally in china as the tidy divorce certificate. The Marriage Registry in Lanshan told her that what she has is proof of divorce, and they do not issue the other document in the case of a court-contested divorce.

So now, how do we proceed? What she has is proof in China of a divorce, and she's not getting something different (they say, at least, in the small town where she lives). The USCIS says it wants something else, and for me not to re-send them the civil mediation agreement. We're kinda stuck.

We will continue to try and persuade the marriage registry that we need an updated divorce certificate. if they give one to us, it will be dated today, but should show that the divorce took place in 1997. We'll talk to the marriage registry in Changsha - I get the feeling that a lot of this trouble is due to dealing with the marriage registry and courts of a small, isolated town.

But what if they say that what we have is the legal document, and no other is needed or will be issued? Any ideas of how we proceed from here? This has to be a fairly common issue, i would think.

 

 

 

NO Chinese documents are issued to USCIS's - or any other American - specifications. Document your efforts and the responses you get - and provide this information to the USCIS along with the documents you are given by the Chinese authorities.

 

Some Chinese documents are issued to International standards - check the Dept. of State Reciprocity tables to be sure you have the right thing - but it is not up to the USCIS to set standards for the Chinese.

 

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/CH.html#divorce-3

 

Divorce

Available. Notarial offices will issue notarial divorce certificates based upon extant records to confirm either a court-decreed or uncontested divorce. In an uncontested divorce, a couple can obtain a divorce certificate from the marriage registration office in the neighborhood where they reside. In a contested divorce, both parties will receive a copy of the formal divorce decree from the court at the time the divorce is approved. If the original decree is lost, the same court will often issue a duplicate, but these various decrees or certificates should not be accepted in lieu of the notarial certificates.

 

 

 

You should be getting the notarial divorce certificate from the same office you get the notarial birth certificate and police records from - the Gong Zheng Chu

 

- and, most importantly -

 

 

General Documents Information

Most of the documents listed below can be obtained from one of China's Notarial Offices (Gong Zheng Chu). All Chinese documentation to be used abroad is processed through the notary offices and issued in the form of notarial certificates. Notarial offices are located in all major Chinese cities and in rural county seats. These offices are part of the Ministry of Justice structure, but are separate from the people's court system.

 

[wawster]

Ok...thanks Randy.

That's really good information!

 

We'll talk to the notarial office in Changsha - that is where we were married. It is right next to the Marriage registry - just down the hall, and it's where we had all of our documents translated and notarized. Being a bigger town, they'll probably know what is needed. but when we got married, they recognized the civil mediation agreement as the divorce decree..the USCIS does not, evidently.

 

I went to the link you provided...it says a certificate is available, but is there something I can look at to see if the document is the "correct" one? In other words, the one that the Department of State says is the correct one? If I can see a sample, I can send it to Yifang, and she can show it to the folks at the Notarial office so they will know what is desired.

 

In any case, we will document the attempts and the responses...and see where it leads...keeping my fingers crossed.

[dnoblett]

Is this the same notarial office as her household book (hukou)? More than likely you will need to visit the notarial office where her Hukou is based.

[wawster]

Yes - it is the province capital of Hunan...Changsha. That is why we were married there. she had gone to the one in her town today, and had no real luck.

[Randy W]

Ok...thanks Randy.

That's really good information!

 

We'll talk to the notarial office in Changsha - that is where we were married. It is right next to the Marriage registry - just down the hall, and it's where we had all of our documents translated and notarized. Being a bigger town, they'll probably know what is needed. but when we got married, they recognized the civil mediation agreement as the divorce decree..the USCIS does not, evidently.

 

I went to the link you provided...it says a certificate is available, but is there something I can look at to see if the document is the "correct" one? In other words, the one that the Department of State says is the correct one? If I can see a sample, I can send it to Yifang, and she can show it to the folks at the Notarial office so they will know what is desired.

 

In any case, we will document the attempts and the responses...and see where it leads...keeping my fingers crossed.

 

 

 

Yes - the Dept. of State INFORMS Consular officials and other U.S. Dept.'s that . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

NO Chinese documents are issued to USCIS's - or any other American - specifications. Document your efforts and the responses you get - and provide this information to the USCIS along with the documents you are given by the Chinese authorities.

 

Some Chinese documents are issued to International standards - check the Dept. of State Reciprocity tables to be sure you have the right thing - but it is not up to the USCIS to set standards for the Chinese.

 

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/CH.html#divorce-3

 

Divorce

Available. Notarial offices will issue notarial divorce certificates based upon extant records to confirm either a court-decreed or uncontested divorce. In an uncontested divorce, a couple can obtain a divorce certificate from the marriage registration office in the neighborhood where they reside. In a contested divorce, both parties will receive a copy of the formal divorce decree from the court at the time the divorce is approved. If the original decree is lost, the same court will often issue a duplicate, but these various decrees or certificates should not be accepted in lieu of the notarial certificates.

 

 

 

 

 

Divorce

Available. Notarial offices will issue notarial divorce certificates based upon extant records to confirm either a court-decreed or uncontested divorce. In an uncontested divorce, a couple can obtain a divorce certificate from the marriage registration office in the neighborhood where they reside. In a contested divorce, both parties will receive a copy of the formal divorce decree from the court at the time the divorce is approved. If the original decree is lost, the same court will often issue a duplicate, but these various decrees or certificates should not be accepted in lieu of the notarial certificates.

 

The notarial document issued by the Gong Zheng Chu IS the CORRECT document, and is BASED on the divorce certificate issued by CHINESE AUTHORITIES.

 

 

Document your efforts and the responses you get - and provide this information to the USCIS along with the documents you are given by the Chinese authorities. These things are NOT made to order.

[wawster]

Got it...thanks man! This matches with what I've read also.

 

Yifang is talking to the notarial office tomorrow her time. But honestly, the answer we've gotten so far from the notarial office is that the notarial office does not issue any decrees. They only validate and translate the ones that they are given. and this is what we already have in the white book that we sent to the USCIS the first time. According to the court there, the "formal divorce decree" is that civil mediation agreement, and the USCIS has it already.

Maybe in her conversation with the notarial office tomorrow, they will say "aha! you want THIS particular piece of paper " (waving it in the air) LOL! who knows? What we're trying to do is to get them to document that the civil mediation agreement is the official divorce decree from the court. Maybe that will suffice.

What we have done also is to take a picture of the letters we got from the USCIS so that she can hand it to them in the Notarial office. They read English quite well, so perhaps this will give them a clearer picture of what is requested.

And I've asked Yifang to ask them to send her their official responses in email, so we have a documented response from them that I can use to send to the USCIS.

 

She is also sending these letters to the office of the RapidVisa folks in Guangzhou. They have been incredibly helpful in deciphering things for us to tell us exactly HOW to get what we need. They're well acquainted with these twists and turns, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed there too.

 

what I'm trying to avoid (if possible) is the pissing contest that I'm likely to get into with the USCIS when China says "you have what we'll give you and the divorce is valid to us", and the USCIS says, "that's not good enough for us" I don't know where to go from there....

[tsap seui]

Wawster, you should be able to get what they need. Who knows, you may already have it in the white book you sent in. Crazy things like that do happen. See what the RapidVisa folks say. If you can post photos, maybe you could black out personal info and post us what your white book looks like???

 

When I sent in my 1-130 initial application they sent the whole 600 plus pages back and said I didn't include something stupid (THAT WAS RIGHT THERE ON TOP). Luckily I was used to dealing with numbnuts and I just repackaged the thing back into order where the USCIS lady who sent it back to me had scattered the whole application into disarray when she had scanned the whole lot TO INCLUDE EXACTLY WHAT SHE TOLD ME I DIDN"T SEND IN (yes, right there it was with it's scanned mark clearly on it....LOL).

 

Good luck, it is one thing to have to wait so long, a whole other to have to deal with folks who couldn't hold down a "private enterprise" job.

[wawster]

Again...Tsap...you make me grin! and i just wanna say thanks...I tried to post pics here, but it seems that the website and I aren't seeing eye to eye. I'll modify the pics and post them to my gallery. The main part of the letter that has pertinence is that it said NOT to resubmit the civil mediation agreement...so that tells me that they have seen it.

 

Ok....made some progress. And this may help others also. After going around in circles with the marriage registry and the courts in little ol' Lanshan, Yifang contacted some lawyers in Shenzhen. These guys have a lot more experience in immigration, being from a bigger, more cosmopolitan city. Here is what they told her:

 

Go back to the court in Lanshan, and ask them for a "effective legal document to prove" document. This document will spell out that the civil mediation agreement IS the legally binding divorce decree that is recognized by the people's court in China, that is presented to both parties from the court. It attests that the civil mediation agreement is proof of divorce. There is really nothing further that they can do, as the civil mediation agreement is all that is legally recognized throughout China.

 

The lawyers in Shenzhen told Yifang that sometimes in recent cases, this is needed, but not all. And only, it seems, in the US.

 

Yifang contacted the court in Lanshan, and they agreed to draw up this document for her. She should get it tomorrow. Then she'll get it translated and notarized in a white book that we can send to the USCIS. when I get a copy, I'll post it in my gallery also.

 

If the USCIS doesn't accept things at this point, I'll go to my US Senator for intervention, because we've already given them what is the accepted legal documents in China. I'll let folks here know how it shakes out.