"Birth certificate" versus Notarial birth certificate

[mungbeans]

Thanks.

After looking at CFR 103.2(b)(2) I can maybe see where the lawyer is coming from, as it states:

 

"If a required document, such as a birth or marriage certificate, does not exist or cannot be obtained, an applicant or petitioner must demonstrate this and submit secondary evidence".

 

As the Notarial Birth Certificate is classified as secondary evidence it makes people suppose there must also be primary evidence and the secondary evidence is being submitted because they do not have this primary evidence.

 

However 103.2(b)(2) is the general guideline, the specific guideline for China states that secondary evidence is used in place of primary evidence.

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/CH.html "Although these certificates are secondary evidence, they are used because primary evidence is not standardized, is easily forged, and difficult to evaluate. "

 

Is my interpretation correct?

[dnoblett]

Thanks.

After looking at CFR 103.2(b)(2) I can maybe see where the lawyer is coming from, as it states:

 

"If a required document, such as a birth or marriage certificate, does not exist or cannot be obtained, an applicant or petitioner must demonstrate this and submit secondary evidence".

 

As the Notarial Birth Certificate is classified as secondary evidence it makes people suppose there must also be primary evidence and the secondary evidence is being submitted because they do not have this primary evidence.

 

However 103.2(b)(2) is the general guideline, the specific guideline for China states that secondary evidence is used in place of primary evidence.

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/CH.html "Although these certificates are secondary evidence, they are used because primary evidence is not standardized, is easily forged, and difficult to evaluate. "

 

Is my interpretation correct?

It is correct, Notary certs even though called secondary evidence, in most cases is the only evidence, so is considered primary by the consulate and NVC

[Randy W]

Thanks.

After looking at CFR 103.2(b)(2) I can maybe see where the lawyer is coming from, as it states:

 

"If a required document, such as a birth or marriage certificate, does not exist or cannot be obtained, an applicant or petitioner must demonstrate this and submit secondary evidence".

 

As the Notarial Birth Certificate is classified as secondary evidence it makes people suppose there must also be primary evidence and the secondary evidence is being submitted because they do not have this primary evidence.

 

However 103.2(b)(2) is the general guideline, the specific guideline for China states that secondary evidence is used in place of primary evidence.

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/CH.html "Although these certificates are secondary evidence, they are used because primary evidence is not standardized, is easily forged, and difficult to evaluate. "

 

Is my interpretation correct?

 

 

Your lawyer will find herself running into a dead end of either having to deny (or fail to file) your petition herself, or, alternatively, of having to sue the State Dept. to follow her own birth certificate guidelines.

 

Does she have a billing address to which we can submit a bill for our research time into her little boondoggle?

 

Seriously, though, how much effort are you willing to put into getting her to fill in the blanks on your forms?

[babyeggplant]

I also have a question related to this topic.

 

Some official sites list that the birth certificate is needed when DCFing in Beijing. Others state that birth certificate is not needed if you bring beneficiaries passport.

 

From http://www.uscis.gov/about-us/find-uscis-office/international-offices/china-beijing-field-office

 

 

e. Birth certificate of the beneficiary. (If the original birth certificate is not available, you must obtain a certification letter, on formal letterhead, from your local Public Security Bureau reporting the beneficiary's name, both parents' names, date and place of birth, and registration of birth.),

 

http://www.uscis.gov/about-us/find-uscis-office/international-offices/china-beijing-field-office

 

If the beneficiary does not have a passport, please bring his or her original birth certificate (出生证) as well as a notarial copy (出生公证书).

 

1.The posts I have read recently don't seem to have needed to submit the birth certificate while filing the initial petition. Is that correct?

The list I was emailed when making my appointment in Beijing doesn't say it's needed. Is it needed later at the interview then?

 

2. I know that several members here have said the only document needed is the notarial birth certificate. From above, it seems possible to get a certificate issued at the PSB and then have that document notarized and translated. Are you guys saying that this is not possible or just not necessary? Is it possible that the info on the websites is just outdated?

[Randy W]

The birth certificate issued by the Chinese authorities for Chinese citizens born prior to 1997 is GongZhengShu 公证书, which is obtainable from one of China's Notarial Offices (Gong Zheng Chu). All Chinese documentation to be used abroad is processed through the notary offices and issued in the form of notarial certificates. Notarial offices are located in all major Chinese cities and in rural county seats

 

From above, it seems possible to get a certificate issued at the PSB and then have that document notarized and translated. Are you guys saying that this is not possible or just not necessary?

 

 

We are saying that this is EXACTLY what you do. "Original birth certificates" are generally not available. Those that ARE available are not acceptable for use in the immigrations process. When you "get a certificate issued at the PSB and then have that document notarized and translated, this IS the Gong Zheng Shu, otherwise known as notarial birth certificate, or white book.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Randy W (see edit history)

[babyeggplant]

So to clarify Randy, do you think it's absolutely necessary to have both documents? The document issued by the PSB (gong an ju) and the notarized translation of that document issued by the gong zheng chu? Last time I was at the gong zheng chu, they said they could make a notarial birth certificate to be used for immigration based off of the hukou and du sheng zi nv zheng (only child cert). They didn't think it was necessary to get the PSB to first issue a certificate for them to notarize.

 

In my previous post, I should have clarified that I understand that the notarial birth certificate is absolutely necessary, I'm just not sure if another document (either original birth certificate or document issued by PSB) will be needed by the gong zheng chu or by guangzhou.

Edited February 23, 2014 by babyeggplant (see edit history)

[Randy W]

So to clarify Randy, do you think it's absolutely necessary to have both documents? (The document issued by the PSB (gong an ju) and the notarized translation of that document issued by the gong zheng chu? Last time I was at the gong zheng chu, they said they could make a notarial birth certificate to be used for immigration based off of the hukou and du sheng zi nv zheng (only child cert). They didn't think it was necessary to get the PSB to first issue a certificate for them to notarize.

 

 

??!? Once you have the white booklet, you're done. They will tell you what you need to do to get there. Follow the local procedures.

[ama537621]

Have your lawyer that does not know the policy for GUZ call Mark Ellis, he deals with Chinese Immigration issues.

 

http://www.marcellislaw.com/contact.html

 

She might believe another lawyer.

[mungbeans]

Hello

 

I'm just curious about the difference between the terms Gong Zheng Chu and Gong Zheng Shu. I thought one meant notarary document and one meant notarary office but I see people referring to the Notarial Birth Certificate sometimes as Gone Zheng Chu and sometimes as Gong Zheng Shu, while at other times people talk about getting the Notarial Birth Certificate from the Gong Zheng Chu and sometimes from the Gong Zheng Shu.

 

So which exactly is which? Thanks

[dnoblett]

出生公证书 Chūshēng gōngzhèng shū = Birth Certificate, another way to say is: 出生证明书 Chūshēng zhèngmíng shū still means Birth Certificate.

 

公证处 Gōngzhèng chù = Notary Office GongZheng Shu is a typo easily done by any one not totally familiar with Mandarin.

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/CH.html

[mungbeans]

Thank you very much.

 

Whats the Mandarin/Pinyin for the Green Certificate?

[eikogs]

My wife is having some troubles getting a notarial birth certificate. Her birth record from the hospital has been lost and the gongzheng chu is refusing to issue a notarial certificate with out a copy of the original birth record. It is her father talking to gongzheng chu in her home town, as we live about 10 hours away. My wife's hukou is listed in another city where she worked right out of college. Does anyone know if we should be pushing the gongzheng chu in her home town (city of birth), or would we have better luck where her hukou is registered?

Edited May 5, 2014 by eikogs (see edit history)

[Randy W]

My wife is having some troubles getting a notarial birth certificate. Her birth record from the hospital has been lost and the gongzheng chu is refusing to issue a notarial certificate with out a copy of the original birth record. It is her father talking to gongzheng chu in her home town, as we live about 10 hours away. My wife's hukou is listed in another city where she worked right out of college. Does anyone know if we should be pushing the gongzheng chu in her home town (city of birth), or would we have better luck where her hukou is registered?

 

Usually, you would take the hukou book to the gong zheng chu to get a birth certificate issued. Any "birth record" is typically just a piece of paper, more like a receipt, - they are usually issued from the hukou book. I would expect even her father's gong zheng chu would issue one from this, but, yes, go to HER gong zheng chu if they have any issues.

[eikogs]

Thank you for the quick reply. It is greatly appreciated. Just to make sure I am understanding you and that I was clear... Her parents still live in her birth city. Her hukou is in a different city. Is there a requirement that we go to one or the other? If either place would be acceptable, would you expect it to be easier in one place vs. the other?

[Randy W]

Thank you for the quick reply. It is greatly appreciated. Just to make sure I am understanding you and that I was clear... Her parents still live in her birth city. Her hukou is in a different city. Is there a requirement that we go to one or the other? If either place would be acceptable, would you expect it to be easier in one place vs. the other?

 

 

Go to her hukou, but, with the hukou book, you may be able to get one issued in a different city.