I wonder what is their game plan.

[Randy W]

I don't think and also hope not that any airplane woild be shot down. But mistakes can be made at so many levels. Some of the reasons/ provocations that wars have been started for are also very sketchy. If it did happen, then hell would have to be paid.

 

I usually drive down to NYC fly out of the New York area to Beijing and to Nanning. When I searched for flights there are many choices and price and time becomes a major consideration factors. Last year a couple of options came up. One was going thru Russia on Aeroflot and the other was some airlines that passed thru the Middle East region ( think it was thru Turkey). For various reasons I decided to move those choice off my list.

 

It sounds like they are stepping things a notch. I don't think I have heard the UN doing anything. I wonder why that is? Danb

 

 

What would you have them do?

 

Notice that the ADIZ for South Korea extends into North Korea. The NDIZ for Japan covers an area similar to that covered by the new China zone.

 

I expect that China will be allowed to monitor aircraft in the zone, if they wish to do so. There is no reason why they shouldn't, and no reason why any other country would expect them to stop.

 

The Chinese have stated (and demonstrated) that they WILL identify any aircraft flying into the zone.

 

The U.S. and other countries can explore the limits of what the Chinese are doing with the zone any time they wish.

[credzba]

It is just an Air Defense Identification Zone ..

 

I see where people think its an attempt to establish control over the islands, but I don't see any published rules about how far out a country can request identification for the purposes of their own Air Defense, which is what this is.

 

I am not foolish, and I see the underlying implication, but decisions cannot be made based on implicit reasons.

 

Every country seems able to define their own ADIZ zones, so if that is true they could define one in the middle of now-where if they wished to enforce it.

[danb]

Randy asked:

 

"What would you have them do?"

 

I would have them talked. I would have them take their case to the world court that hears such matters. I would not try to escalate the situation toward possible military options. What is the reason for establishing this ADIZ? Was there a need for it 1 year ago, 5 years ago, or 20 years ago? Why now?Why did they come up this new boundaries? All parties need to seek peaceful solutions, not to rattle their sabres. At least that is what I would like to see them do. Danb

[credzba]

Randy asked:

 

"What would you have them do?"

 

I would have them talked. I would have them take their case to the world court that hears such matters. I would not try to escalate the situation toward possible military options. What is the reason for establishing this ADIZ? Was there a need for it 1 year ago, 5 years ago, or 20 years ago? Why now?Why did they come up this new boundaries? All parties need to seek peaceful solutions, not to rattle their sabres. At least that is what I would like to see them do. Danb

Yeah Dan, but your sane.

 

Isn't everyone else on board with the sabre rattling?

2 US b-52 fly through immediately for no reason?

Japan tells its passenger flights not to comply.

 

Sadly, it seems like all the powers involved want to play truth and dare like they were elementary kids on the playground.

It really lowers my opinion of all the governments involved, if that is possible.

[NUWORLD]

China and for that fact no one is going to shoot anyone down.

 

US advises carriers to comply with China air zone

 

 

BEIJING (AP) - The United States advised U.S. carriers to comply with China's demand that it be told of any flights passing through its new maritime air defense zone over the East China Sea, an area where Beijing said it launched two fighter planes to investigate a dozen American and Japanese reconnaissance and military flights.

It was the first time since proclaiming the zone on Nov. 23 that China said it sent planes there on the same day as foreign military flights, although it said it merely identified the foreign planes and took no further action.

 

[tsap seui]

Ya know, radio calls to identify and state your intentions are really nothing to make. Have they changed them somehow since I last flew?...LOL...I don't know what you could do to make a radio call hard. Buff pilots used to talk for 2 minutes giving a 4 corner grid box with each grid corner having 8 digits each, when they were announcing an Arc Light up along the Ho CHi Minh trail in Cambodia. What would it have hurt when these two Buff's passed through the airspace to make a call to the Chinese controller? That's right....NOTHING

 

I'm with you Credz, only I have already dug a 20 foot deep hole to show where my opinion is of the powers to be. LOL Just acting like playground bullies. God I hate the thought of us having to help out Japan. They want to start something let them take responsibility for their own actions. I mean send their people aid for their disasters, but let them fight their own stupid assed wars. Don't come runnin' to Uncle Mommy if you start something and get slapped back. Let Vietnam fight China for the Japanese...

[tsap seui]

China and for that fact no one is going to shoot anyone down.

 

US advises carriers to comply with China air zone

 

 

BEIJING (AP) - The United States advised U.S. carriers to comply with China's demand that it be told of any flights passing through its new maritime air defense zone over the East China Sea, an area where Beijing said it launched two fighter planes to investigate a dozen American and Japanese reconnaissance and military flights.

It was the first time since proclaiming the zone on Nov. 23 that China said it sent planes there on the same day as foreign military flights, although it said it merely identified the foreign planes and took no further action.

 

There ya go, finally something sensible. Just make the stupid radio calls and stop shakin' yer vienna sausage at them.

 

I would like to be sittin' in a triple 7 and get escorted by one of their jets into Beijing, but the flights we take come down from the extreme north over Russia to Beijing. That'd be cool to see off yer wing. A Chinese pilot with a Chairman Mao rubber mask over his helmet, flying a J-30 or whatever it is they fly, sittin' out there in formation.

[NUWORLD]

Ya know, radio calls to identify and state your intentions are really nothing to make. Have they changed them somehow since I last flew?...LOL...I don't know what you could do to make a radio call hard. Buff pilots used to talk for 2 minutes giving a 4 corner grid box with each grid corner having 8 digits each, when they were announcing an Arc Light up along the Ho CHi Minh trail in Cambodia. What would it have hurt when these two Buff's passed through the airspace to make a call to the Chinese controller? That's right....NOTHING

 

I'm with you Credz, only I have already dug a 20 foot deep hole to show where my opinion is of the powers to be. LOL Just acting like playground bullies. God I hate the thought of us having to help out Japan. They want to start something let them take responsibility for their own actions. I mean send their people aid for their disasters, but let them fight their own stupid assed wars. Don't come runnin' to Uncle Mommy if you start something and get slapped back. Let Vietnam fight China for the Japanese...

 

 

My friend i must say i feel the same.

 

 

Before my father died, he said the worst thing about growing old was that other men stopped seeing you as dangerous. I've always remembered that, how being dangerous was sacred, a badge of honor. You live your life by a code, an ethos. Every man does. It's your shoreline. It's what guides you home. And trust me, you're always trying to get home.

 

 

That last night at home, you think about how you could of been a better dad, a better husband, that bedtime story you should of read, or that anniversary you forgot. You don't expect your family to understand what you're doing. You just hope they understand you're doing it for them, and when you get home you hope you can pick-up right where you left off.

 

 

Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.

[danb]

In the post that Nuworld gave us, I read something that was interesting to me. It said:

 

"The zone is seen primarily as China's latest bid to bolster its claim over a string of uninhabited Japanese-controlled islands in the East China Sea known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. Beijing has been ratcheting up its sovereignty claims since Tokyo's nationalization of the islands last year. However, there are questions whether China has the technical ability to fully enforce the zone due to a shortage of early warning radar aircraft and in-flight refueling capability".

 

I knew that some of these problems started last year when the Japanese Government bought the land from a private family. But I never saw it as the "nationalization of the islands." To be truthful I never thought about that much and didn't see it as significant. But now I can see how China is looking at it. I may not agree with it but I can see it.

 

I looked on Wikipedia and it gives some of the history on the Senkaku/ Daiyou Islands. It give some good background information. Not sure who should legal own the islands but all sides take it to the World courts and settle it there.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

 

From the Wikipedia article most of the other countries seem to really take an interest in after the discovery of potential rich natural resources in that area in the late 1960.

 

"The islands came under US government occupation in 1945 after the surrender of Japan ended World War II.^[27] In 1969, the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) identified potential oil and gas reserves in the vicinity of the Senkaku Islands.^[31] In 1971, the Okinawa Reversion Treaty passed the U.S. Senate, returning the islands to Japanese control in 1972.^[32] Also in 1972, the Taiwanese and Chinese governments officially began to declare ownership of the islands.^[33]"

[NUWORLD]

In the post that Nuworld gave us, I read something that was interesting to me. It said:

 

"The zone is seen primarily as China's latest bid to bolster its claim over a string of uninhabited Japanese-controlled islands in the East China Sea known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. Beijing has been ratcheting up its sovereignty claims since Tokyo's nationalization of the islands last year. However, there are questions whether China has the technical ability to fully enforce the zone due to a shortage of early warning radar aircraft and in-flight refueling capability".

 

I knew that some of these problems started last year when the Japanese Government bought the land from a private family. But I never saw it as the "nationalization of the islands." To be truthful I never thought about that much and didn't see it as significant. But now I can see how China is looking at it. I may not agree with it but I can see it.

 

I looked on Wikipedia and it gives some of the history on the Senkaku/ Daiyou Islands. It give some good background information. Not sure who should legal own the islands but all sides take it to the World courts and settle it there.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

 

From the Wikipedia article most of the other countries seem to really take an interest in after the discovery of potential rich natural resources in that area in the late 1960.

 

"The islands came under US government occupation in 1945 after the surrender of Japan ended World War II.^[27] In 1969, the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) identified potential oil and gas reserves in the vicinity of the Senkaku Islands.^[31] In 1971, the Okinawa Reversion Treaty passed the U.S. Senate, returning the islands to Japanese control in 1972.^[32] Also in 1972, the Taiwanese and Chinese governments officially began to declare ownership of the islands.^[33]"

 

 

The thing is and this is only IMO:

The problem is that it only takes one to start a war.

The one that pushes/pulls the triger first. Then It's just a domino afect.

 

Thought i do not see this happening, but it could and just might.

Just look at past history how wars have started.

It anly takes some ass hole to get the ball rolling.

 

As luck would have it as I'm writing this post the wife and i are watch a TV program on our Chinese satelite about how the Japanese

invaded Chongqing in 1941 killing most of the population of chongqing.

 

Kinda ironic seeing the state were in now with China,Japan and the U.S. and the rest of the world.

Edited December 27, 2013 by warpedbored (see edit history)

[danb]

"China has demarcated an "air-defence identification zone" over an area of the East China Sea, covering islands that are also claimed by Japan.

China's defence ministry said aircraft entering the zone must obey its rules or face "emergency defensive measures". "

Are they looking for a fight or are they merely prodding the Japanese? Pushing, poking and prodding to see what they can get away with. And what about Abe and the Japanese , will they arise to the occasion? I think both side could be playing a dangerous game. I wonder why the UN doesn't step in and offer to mediate this dispute before it get out of hand. I wish they both would come to their senses and seek a fair and peaceful resolution to the issue(s). "

Just read about Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe making a visit to the Yasukuni Shrine on December 26 th. Now, I mostly believe that visiting the shrine is an internal matter or at least should be an internal matter. But on the other hand I can understand the feelings of the others Asian countries. One word comes to mind. "Morons!!" From all sides. They are all ratcheting up the excitement over these affairs. They sure seem to want to head in the wrong direction to resolve this problem. Danb

[Randy W]

 

"China has demarcated an "air-defence identification zone" over an area of the East China Sea, covering islands that are also claimed by Japan.

China's defence ministry said aircraft entering the zone must obey its rules or face "emergency defensive measures". "

Are they looking for a fight or are they merely prodding the Japanese? Pushing, poking and prodding to see what they can get away with. And what about Abe and the Japanese , will they arise to the occasion? I think both side could be playing a dangerous game. I wonder why the UN doesn't step in and offer to mediate this dispute before it get out of hand. I wish they both would come to their senses and seek a fair and peaceful resolution to the issue(s). "

Just read about Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe making a visit to the Yasukuni Shrine on December 26 th. Now, I mostly believe that visiting the shrine is an internal matter or at least should be an internal matter. But on the other hand I can understand the feelings of the others Asian countries. One word comes to mind. "Morons!!" From all sides. They are all ratcheting up the excitement over these affairs. They sure seem to want to head in the wrong direction to resolve this problem. Danb

 

 

One thing you'll find with China is that, with regards to foreign affairs, they have several different voices. That is because the three different ministries - Foreign Affairs, the Military, and Propaganda - speak independently and to different audiences, often resulting in an incoherent or misleading message.

 

In this case, I believe the only "emergency defensive measures" available are to simply identify and monitor any aircraft going through the zone. Based on their actions to date, that DOES seem to be the case (and their intent all along).

 

I also believe that the United States and allies will continue to monitor and probe the zone to make sure that that is the case.

 

Foreign Policy is simply a VERY weak point of the Chinese government.

[Randy W]

Now the U.S. is more directly wanting to know what their game plan is - from the Global Times

 

US presses on South China Sea

 

 

The US on Wednesday urged Beijing to clarify or adjust its claims in the South China Sea, a move denounced by Chinese observers as interference in China's internal affairs.

Danny Russel, the US assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, challenged Beijing's nine-dash line, adding that maritime claims under international law needed to be based on land features.

"Any Chinese claim to maritime rights not based on claimed land features would be inconsistent with international law," Russel told a congressional committee.

 

. . .

 

"We neither recognize nor accept China's declared ADIZ," Russel said. "We made clear to China that it shouldn't attempt to implement that ADIZ and should refrain from taking similar actions elsewhere in the region."

Ji Qiufeng, a professor of international relations at China's Nanjing University, told the Global Times on Thursday that Russel's comments came out of a cold war mentality which sees China as a potential threat and it reflected the US intention to contain China under the "pivot to Asia" or "rebalancing" strategy.