Asiana 777 crash in SFO

[dnoblett]

Tasp, yes the "face" issue use to be a problem on western airlines, I remember a documentary about the worse airline crash in aviation history where at Tenerife a Pan-AM 747 got Clipped by a KLM 747, the senior pilot of the KLM 747 was impatient about taking off, and goosed the throttles once, having his co-pilot tell him they were not clear for take-off, and then he proceeded to jump the gun a second time starting his take off before being cleared, only the second time the co-pilot held back from challenging the senior pilot due to "face" you do not question the senior pilot only this time, the hesitation to call out the mistake proved catostrophic. Americans tend to be much less concerned about this kind of nonsense, so an american co-pilot is encouraged to point out when the senior makes a possible mistake.

http://youtu.be/13PIpTEofXQ

 

Full video:

 

http://youtu.be/FKti4k2gj8o

[ameriken]

@ Tsap Seui....to add insult to error, face may also be the reason why the evacuation order wasn't given for 90 seconds. I believe a flight attendant (female) said she asked one of the pilots if they should evacuate and the pilot initially said no and the evac didn't happen till 90 secs later.

 

Deborah Hersman said "It seems a little unusual that the crew would not announce an order to evacuate after a plane crash" "We don't know what the pilots were thinking."

 

My guess is the pilot was thinking "I'm in charge and I'm not gonna let some woman give the orders around here".​

 

 

Asiana 214: Plane evacuated 90 seconds after crash

The evacuation of Asiana flight 214, which crash-landed on Saturday in San Francisco, was delayed because the pilots initially said passengers should stay put, a safety official has said.

 

 

Continue reading the main story

Edited July 11, 2013 by ameriken (see edit history)

[Steve in USA]

The lastest story, it was not the pilots' fault: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/10/asiana-flight-214-ntsb-pilot-blinded/2507059/

 

I believe Tsap nailed the cause. It was all about saving face (and still is).

[tsap seui]

It was the pilots first landing of a triple 7 and the co-pilots first flight as an instructor. Jesus Christ!!!!!

 

I'm telling ya guys, aviation protocol is pretty much all the same, rather you fly a Cessna on the weekends, or fly multi engine commercial carrier triple 7's. It is basic stuff that you learn and is harped in to you repeatedly (so much so that you do it in your sleep and it becomes automatic like breathing oxygen), especially if you are flying for an airline. They have two front seats for a well thought out and important reason. One pilot of those commercial carriers is flying the plane (when they don't have it on autopilot) especially during takeoffs and landings, and the other pilot is monitoring the instruments, calling out airspeed numbers on takeoff as well and even more so on landings, along with altitude and descent rate on the landings. How the hell hard is that? How do you miss or forget to do that on a landing?

 

Sure, those planes fly by wire (computer) but there are times that a pilot actually take control of the bird. Those effing guys had to be asleep at the wheel to miss something so basic. In flight my ex brother in law who flew 747's and triple 7's until his death from cancer used to laugh and tell me they just input data into a computer and the plane flies itself, he would jokingly say he knew more about the computer then the plane. But, he said the real flying is on takeoffs and landings.

 

For some reason this really pisses me off to no end. I blame all four pilots in that cockpit. To hell with not doing the right thing and somebody saying something about basic aviation protocol to a higher ranking officer in the cockpit. Real pilots never get lax in the basic protocol. This tragic crash is why it is basic drummed into your head over and over protocol.I can't in my wildest dream understand how a whole crew of four pilots in a cockpit missed something as simple as calling out airspeed, altitude, and descent rate on a landing. And to blame it on the throttles??????? That they set???? Or a brief flash of light???? And a new guy on piloting a triple 7 teamed up with a first time instructor????????? What genius put them together on something as important as a commercial flight??? You add the practice of effing "face" in with these so called pilots being bumbling idiots and you see what you have here. Those unfortunate passengers are lucky they aren't all dead. and over "face"....I am so angry I could shit. It's one thing for a bird to go down because of catastrophic mechanical failure at a sensitive and highly vulnerable time like a takeoff or a landing....but sheer stupidity for not following the most basic cockpit protocol with 3 other pilots not saying anything because of some old worn out piece of shit like "face"???? That is outrageous.

 

The two active triple 7 pilots I heard on the radio kept their demeanor about them when they discussed this, one of them now stopped calling it "face" and used the term "cockpit "culture" for Asian pilots flying together, but you could hear in their inflection of voice how incredible they found that no one was reading out airspeed, altitude, and descent rate.

 

You know, when you have a serious operation you put your trust in a doctor, or maybe a small team of doctors, but a commercial aviation pilot has the trust of hundreds of people that he will do his job to the best of his training and his ability....not one person...HUNDREDS. As a pilot, and when I became an aircraft commander that was my biggest concern....the passengers and crew on my chopper, not myself, it was for them. After every flight I went over in my head everything I had done that day, or had allowed a peter pilot was training, to do. How could I better, what could I do different, had I missed anything? The facts as they emerge on this crash give me shivers that a whole damned crew could have been so lax....with the very basics of modern aviation, no matter the particular plane you are in.

 

Aviation is a great trade or profession to be in. But it is also the most responsibly demanding profession that you could get into when you start carrying passengers. Dammit, I could rattle on for hours about how insanely senseless this crash was....not calling out the numbers on a landing for Chrissakes. All four of these pilots and the person in charge of the flight crew roster should be taken out and shot for dereliction of duty. And I am not kidding. Being a pilot for a commercial carrier is one highly demanding position, perfection is not good enough....but missing the basics. Shot the stupid criminal bastards....in the head....three times.

 

I don't know how much training a commercial pilot gets but I can imagine it is for a long time and is very very intense. In the Army, to fly a helicopter I and my class of candidates went through 9 solid months of officer candidate and flight school training that was the most rigorous mentally and physically challenge I have ever been subjected to. Take away the officer candidate part and it was still 9 months of pure hell to become a pilot on a single turbine military helicopter.

 

We started out with a class of approximately 236 candidates and only 86 of us actually got a pair of silver wings pinned on our chests after nine months of flight school. That means 2 out of every 3 guys washed out during the training. You were not allowed to make mistakes. I, as well as any other fight school candidate, have been punched in the arm, hit over the helmet with thick clipboards until the clipboard broke, yelled at unmercifully, and put under immense stress for even beginning to make a mistake in training. My instructors were all combat pilots who had the physical and burn scars to prove what they had been through and they constantly harped and force fed us about aviation protocol until we had much more than the basics drilled into us to the point where we ate, slept, dreamed, and could do the basics and much more without consciously thinking about it. No matter what you are strapped into on any particular day aviation protocol be it military or civilian is all pretty much the exact same. You are flying something with an engine and every bird has basic rules and protocol that is used when shooting an approach to a landing.

 

After nine months of flight school, I went to Vietnam and was assigned to a combat assault helicopter unit. In that unit I was supposed to have 6 months and 600 hundred hours of in country flight before I could even be considered for stepping up to becoming an aircraft commander. Six months and 600 hours. I always had someone with tons of experience in the bird we were flying. Two peter pilots never flew together. And it was hardcore in the cockpit. You didn't even get the chance to make a mistake without getting yelled at as soon as you started making the mistake. It was tough, but you damn well learned your craft and the rank of the guy teaching you had nothing to do with it. He was the aircraft commander and that was the law. He may have to salute your sorry ass on the ground but up in the air in the aircraft something as stupid as "face" NEVER came into play. Face gets people killed.

 

IN my case, my unit got involved in a lot of sustained hardcore combat after I got there and we lost some many aircraft commanders due to KIA or WIA that I was forced into becoming an aircraft commander with only 2 months in country and just 200 hours of flight. Stress doesn't even describe what that meant to me. I had to learn on my own, and I had to do it quickly, often trying things I had no idea if they would work when the shit hit the fan and to do nothing new would get us all killed. After flights I would often go grab an aircraft commander and hit him up with questions. The stress of being in charge of other people, the other 3 crewmen, and a load of grunts be they being taken into combat or to hospitals was overwhelming. Making a mistake, especially one that caused injury or death of another person on my aircraft, due to my not following something as simple and basic as aviation protocol would have devastated me to no end. I, and they were lucky...but I worked my ass off to learn and I certainly followed even the most basic of protocols. ANd yes, I chewed out peter pilots that far outranked me....fuck a bunch of "face". UP in the air there is no damned "face", only life and death.

 

Maybe civilian pilots have a tad more gentle form of training but I'll be it is much the same when it comes to aviation protocol. You don't forget to do the basics, you don't get lax in flight, you effing well don't make "pilot errors" or mistakes. You are either a professional aviator to the fullest measure of the term or you go do something else. It is a demanding profession and there is no room for mistakes. Especially with hundreds of people, or even one person, sitting behind you.

 

I am so sorry for, and I hurt for the folks on this plane. Even if they didn't get injured their lives will forever be changed. The thoughts of those two dead girls, the folks with spinal injuries and other injuries, and the 3 road rashed flight attendants who were in the back and were thrown out when the tail broke of as the idiots up front tried to nose up the bird to get altitude...far too late...they bother me, probably more than they should. Those effing pilots walked away uninjured, and they have time to sit around, scheme, make up their sorry assed "story". They can never repay those passengers who trusted them. I know they won't be taken out back and shot, but I hope they lose their jobs and are never allowed to sit any closer to the cockpit other than the last row in a plane.

 

All four of them, and the scheduling officer for that carrier are criminals.

 

tsap seui

 

I don't care how pretty the flight attendants are, or how good the food is on some "face" practicing commercial carrier. Give me the grumpy old women and the fare served on United Airlines for my precious family, and me. Those grumpy old women on United wouldn't have even bothered to ask some pilot if they should open the doors and evacuate the plane in a crash like this. Those old biddies would KNOW what to do without having to ask, and waiting to being told.

 

Fuck a bunch of "face".

[dnoblett]

Heads are rolling at a San Francisco TV station for getting stung with a classic Bart Simpson --> O'Flanagan's Pub phone call gag.

http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/asian_air_pilots_names.jpeg

Bay Area FOX affiliate KTVU 2 might want to check their NTSB sources a little more closely. The station's news team just aired the (alleged) names of the pilots involved in the Asiana Airlines flight 214 crash, which include Captain Sum Ting Wong and Ho Lee Fuk.
Further, the anchors actually read the names on the air. Behold:
http://youtu.be/wFA7t1sHxBI
We can only assume Bartholomew J. Simpson was the person who confirmed the names.
http://sfist.com/2013/07/12/ktvu_names_asiana_pilots_ho_lee_fuk.php

[Mick]

Unbelievable.....as someone who has spent most of my professional life working in communications/press, etc. I can just imagine the heads rolling up and down the food chain as a result of this screw up. Even the most wet-behind-the-ears greenhorn should have spotted that one when doing a run through of how to pronounce the "names." I can only guess that maybe they didn't even take the time to do a run through. I have a hard time even believing this is for real......what a screw up!

[Dennis143]

Unbelievable.....as someone who has spent most of my professional life working in communications/press, etc. I can just imagine the heads rolling up and down the food chain as a result of this screw up. Even the most wet-behind-the-ears greenhorn should have spotted that one when doing a run through of how to pronounce the "names." I can only guess that maybe they didn't even take the time to do a run through. I have a hard time even believing this is for real......what a screw up!

Well, it's FOX News... strictly entertainment. Those guys are soooo funny.

[dnoblett]

 

Unbelievable.....as someone who has spent most of my professional life working in communications/press, etc. I can just imagine the heads rolling up and down the food chain as a result of this screw up. Even the most wet-behind-the-ears greenhorn should have spotted that one when doing a run through of how to pronounce the "names." I can only guess that maybe they didn't even take the time to do a run through. I have a hard time even believing this is for real......what a screw up!

Well, it's FOX News... strictly entertainment. Those guys are soooo funny.

 

Not FOX news, that was a local TV station in San Francisco, that got pranked.

 

But yes, talking heads are that moronic, all they do is read what is placed in front of them on the tele-prompter, the person who posted that for viewing on the TV, and to be read by the talking head should have caught that, they are in way to much of a hurry to try to "scoop" the competition and get sloppy. kind of reminds me of that Don Henley song "Dirty Laundry"

 

"We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who comes on at five"

"She can tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eye"

[Dennis143]

Update: KTVU 2 issued an apology and explanation for the muck up. The FOX affiliate claims that the names were "confirmed by an NTSB official" in the agency's Washington, D.C. office. In a now-deleted published apology, KTVU said:

"Prior to air, the names were confirmed by an NTSB official in the agency's Washington D.C. office. Despite that confirmation, KTVUY realized the names that aired were not accurate and issued an apology later in the newscast. The correct names of the pilots in the cockpit were Lee Gang-guk and Lee Jeong-Min."

[Randy W]

In the meantime . . .

 

Third Chinese schoolgirl dies in Asiana air crash

[warpedbored]

 

 

Well, it's FOX News... strictly entertainment. Those guys are soooo funny.

 

Not FOX news, that was a local TV station in San Francisco, that got pranked.

 

But yes, talking heads are that moronic, all they do is read what is placed in front of them on the tele-prompter, the person who posted that for viewing on the TV, and to be read by the talking head should have caught that, they are in way to much of a hurry to try to "scoop" the competition and get sloppy. kind of reminds me of that Don Henley song "Dirty Laundry"

 

"We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who comes on at five"

"She can tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eye"

 

They are a FOX station listed online as KTVU FOX News. Shit rolls down hill.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/abc-news-and-san-francisco-fox-affiliate-in-flap-over-plane-crash-coverage_b187375

[Randy W]

 

.

 

San Francisco flight survivors return to China

[Randy W]

.

Study Tours from China

 

When the Zhejiang government learned the organizer of one of the summer camps was operating without the appropriate qualifications, it swiftly cracked down on sending Zhejiang students to overseas summer camps, amid public scrutiny over their safety.

. . .

The company was founded in December 2005, but is neither affiliated with education authorities, nor is it a qualified travel agency.

However, before the company was exposed in media reports in the wake of the crash, it had cooperated with the school to organize summer camps for seven years. The 15-day study tour this summer charged about 30,000 yuan ($4,887) from each student and was approved by the Jiangshan education bureau, the Qianjiang Evening News reported.

Cracking down

Just one day after the plane crash, the Quzhou education bureau cracked down on a range of summer camps. On July 8, the Zhejiang provincial education department issued a notice requiring all high and primary schools in the province to investigate overseas summer camps. Schools that hadn't signed contracts related to summer camps were told to delay travel plans.

The notice also said that summer and winter camps and study tours organized by schools should not pursue profit. It specifically stipulated that the costs incurred by teachers while on these trips should not be covered by the fees paid by students, the Qianjiang Evening News reported.

 

[dnoblett]

Well it seems there has been more fallout regarding the derogatory names that were quoted on the CNN affiliate in Oakland California, it looks like the airline plans a lawsuit against the station, they were also going to sue the NTSB because it was an Intern at the NTSB that pranked the station, however decided drop it with the NTSB because ultimately the station should have caught the prank and never should have aired it.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/15/travel/asiana-offensive-names/index.html?sr=fb071513asianatvstationsuit11a

[dnoblett]

Well, it's FOX News... strictly entertainment. Those guys are soooo funny.

They are a FOX station listed online as KTVU FOX News. Shit rolls down hill.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/abc-news-and-san-francisco-fox-affiliate-in-flap-over-plane-crash-coverage_b187375

Looks like they are an independent station, much like WUHF in Rochester, NY, however their news department is not affiliated with FOX Cable News, the Oakland station's news department is affiliated with CNN, it looks like initial reporting jumped and immediately assumed that somehow FOX news was to blame.

 

KTVU anchor Tori Campbell read the names Friday. The news station, a CNN affiliate, later apologized on air and on its website.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/15/travel/asiana-offensive-names/index.html?sr=fb071513asianatvstationsuit11a