What human rights abuses?

[griz326]

FROM China snubs courageous Nobel Peace Prize which is an educational read. I find his statement below somewhat true too.

 

Perhaps Liu's most poignant critique is directed at the Chinese people themselves. He admonishes them for what he sees as their indifference to -- and even complicity in -- their own oppression. [/b]

 

It seems to me the quote shows both Liu Xiaobo's arrogance and ignorance of his own culture. In my experience, Chinese people, as a group, believe in their collectivist society and seem willing to give small personal sacrifices in hopes of creating a harmonious society.

 

The Wiki article was far more compelling than the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights document. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is an abomination; its intent is to deprive nations of sovereignty and individuals of liberty if they do not comply. The Wiki article makes a better case, but the authors were unable to conceal their anti-Chinese agenda. They gave precious little consideration to the Chinese government's counter-point arguing the value of the collectivist society.

 

My first visit to China was a diplomatic mission. The lead diplomat did not know the importance of the "I Ching" and yet when we returned to Shanghai a second time, the old people were selling yarrow stalks on the street and the Catholic Churches were opening for the first time in many years.

 

I was just a lowly grunt; my shipmates described the Chinese as "those poor bastards" ... but this was the same ship where our drunken skipper tried to buy a 12 year old Filipina girl for the cruise from Manila to Olongapo.

 

It is my personal belief that China, which was still a feudal society only a 100 years (or so) ago, will continue to evolve in a positive direction. IMO, the worst thing the Chinese could do would be to give too much weight to foreign counsel. Aside from the threat of intellectual sabotage, even well meaning counsel cannot comprehend the depth of culture and scale of Chinese society.

[tsap seui]

I'm with Griz, Credzba, and David on this one.

 

And the Nobel Peace Prize? What a funny world we live in.

 

And no, I'm not pro Chinese, nor anti American....but...my eyes are open to reality.

 

tsap seui

[dnoblett]

Already a thread started on that topic.

 

http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42357

 

 

 

ugh I fail

 

Merged,

[danb]

Perhaps you guys are right. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion , and freedom of movement they are much overated.

 

Danb

 

Maybe I am missing the point or not reading between the lines but am I the lone dissenter? That is not a good thing is it? Perhaps my comments should be censored.

[Jeikun]

Perhaps you guys are right. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion , and freedom of movement they are much overated.

 

Danb

 

Maybe I am missing the point or not reading between the lines but am I the lone dissenter? That is not a good thing is it? Perhaps my comments should be censored.

 

 

 

Yes, you aren't minding your Ps and Qs! *WHACK!!* Keep smiling everyone, nothing just happened here.... just some cultural differences...

[amberjack1234]

Perhaps you guys are right. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion , and freedom of movement they are much overated.

 

Danb

 

Maybe I am missing the point or not reading between the lines but am I the lone dissenter? That is not a good thing is it? Perhaps my comments should be censored.

 

No you are not but it is simple some folks can't see the forest for the trees and never will. Been argued many times before and no one will change their minds so no need to I have to say that things are improving in great strides in China but there is a long road to travel. There are many examples of human rights abuse but you won't get the naysayers to admit any of them as they have not seen any of them so they don't exist.

 

Larry

[credzba]

Perhaps you guys are right. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion , and freedom of movement they are much overated.

 

Danb

 

Maybe I am missing the point or not reading between the lines but am I the lone dissenter? That is not a good thing is it? Perhaps my comments should be censored.

 

 

Dan,

Those rights are important, my point was I don't see any more repression in China than in America.

 

Freedom of speech for instance. In China you speak out against the government, they really don't much care unless you begin to build a backing of people whom they fear may try to overthrow their government. Then your revolution is shut down, and your probably thrown in jail.

In America, start talking about shooting a member of the political party, or doing some other violence against the party in power .. you will be shut down, and jailed. If they can't find a legal way to do it, your back taxes will be due or some other problem will arise.

 

Freedom of Religion. You DO realize the largest number of Christians in any country are in China? Also largest number of Muslim, and many other religions. They do not care who you worship, so long as that religion does not challenge the government.

In America, we choose religions we don't like, and label them terrorist.

 

Freedom of movement.

Have you EVER traveled in China at New Years of Fall Festival? Darn near 3/4 of the population goes somewhere other than their home town. If you mean outside the country, then consider I have NEVER been denied a pasport to travel into China, but many of our WIVES were either denied, or we jumped through hoops to let them come into America.

 

I can't say that ANY country is perfect, but I don't think the generic "Human Rights Violation" is fairly leveled.

[amberjack1234]

Perhaps you guys are right. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion , and freedom of movement they are much overated.

 

Danb

 

Maybe I am missing the point or not reading between the lines but am I the lone dissenter? That is not a good thing is it? Perhaps my comments should be censored.

 

 

Dan,

Those rights are important, my point was I don't see any more repression in China than in America.

 

Freedom of speech for instance. In China you speak out against the government, they really don't much care unless you begin to build a backing of people whom they fear may try to overthrow their government. Then your revolution is shut down, and your probably thrown in jail.

 

In America, start talking about shooting a member of the political party, or doing some other violence against the party in power .. you will be shut down, and jailed. If they can't find a legal way to do it, your back taxes will be due or some other problem will arise.

 

Freedom of Religion. You DO realize the largest number of Christians in any country are in China? Also largest number of Muslim, and many other religions. They do not care who you worship, so long as that religion does not challenge the government.

In America, we choose religions we don't like, and label them terrorist.

 

Freedom of movement.

Have you EVER traveled in China at New Years of Fall Festival? Darn near 3/4 of the population goes somewhere other than their home town. If you mean outside the country, then consider I have NEVER been denied a pasport to travel into China, but many of our WIVES were either denied, or we jumped through hoops to let them come into America.

 

I can't say that ANY country is perfect, but I don't think the generic "Human Rights Violation" is fairly leveled.

 

I will have to agree with most of what you have said but two things. you go from just merely criticizing the government in China to threatening the life of someone in politics here in America, not the same thing exactly don't you think.

 

Secondly the religion thing. My wife is a christian and she DID NOT HAVE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP in China and I was not shouting there just capital letters to emphasize my point. There are CCP,PBS etc at the entrance of every church in China that if you look Chinese you will be approached by these folks in plain clothes and ask for your ID or passport and if you are not from another country but just an ordinary Chinese citizen you will not be allowed to enter the church. She said that she tried it just once and only once as they said that they would remember her and be watching for her again. Perhaps she could not be telling the truth but I don't think so as I have read the same thing in many different news sites over the past 10 years including the BBC, CNN, New York Times etc, etc.

 

Now having said that here and in many discussions like this one in the past it was said by even Chinese women here that this was not stepping on your human rights but as they even admitted that they did not believe in God or any kind of religion so this was no problem in their eyes. If you believe in God and have some religious affiliation and are not allowed to enter a Church to worship it will indeed be an issue with you. Depends which side of the street you are on doesn't it?

 

Larry

Edited October 10, 2010 by amberjack1234 (see edit history)

[chilton747]

Perhaps you guys are right. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion , and freedom of movement they are much overated.

 

Danb

 

Maybe I am missing the point or not reading between the lines but am I the lone dissenter? That is not a good thing is it? Perhaps my comments should be censored.

 

 

Dan,

Those rights are important, my point was I don't see any more repression in China than in America.

 

Freedom of speech for instance. In China you speak out against the government, they really don't much care unless you begin to build a backing of people whom they fear may try to overthrow their government. Then your revolution is shut down, and your probably thrown in jail.

 

In America, start talking about shooting a member of the political party, or doing some other violence against the party in power .. you will be shut down, and jailed. If they can't find a legal way to do it, your back taxes will be due or some other problem will arise.

 

Freedom of Religion. You DO realize the largest number of Christians in any country are in China? Also largest number of Muslim, and many other religions. They do not care who you worship, so long as that religion does not challenge the government.

In America, we choose religions we don't like, and label them terrorist.

 

Freedom of movement.

Have you EVER traveled in China at New Years of Fall Festival? Darn near 3/4 of the population goes somewhere other than their home town. If you mean outside the country, then consider I have NEVER been denied a pasport to travel into China, but many of our WIVES were either denied, or we jumped through hoops to let them come into America.

 

I can't say that ANY country is perfect, but I don't think the generic "Human Rights Violation" is fairly leveled.

 

I will have to agree with most of what you have said but two things. you go from just merely criticizing the government in China to threatening the life of someone in politics here in America, not the same thing exactly don't you think.

 

Secondly the religion thing. My wife is a christian and she DID NOT HAVE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP in China and I was not shouting there just capital letters to emphasize my point. There are CCP,PBS etc at the entrance of every church in China that if you look Chinese you will be approached by these folks in plain clothes and ask for your ID or passport and if you are not from another country but just an ordinary Chinese citizen you will not be allowed to enter the church. She said that she tried it just once and only once as they said that they would remember her and be watching for her again. Perhaps she could not be telling the truth but I don't think so as I have read the same thing in many different news sites over the past 10 years including the BBC, CNN, New York Times etc, etc.

 

Now having said that here and in many discussions like this one in the past it was said by even Chinese women here that this was not stepping on your human rights but as they even admitted that they did not believe in God or any kind of religion so this was no problem in their eyes. If you believe in God and have some religious affiliation and are not allowed to enter a Church to worship it will indeed be an issue with you. Depends which side of the street you are on doesn't it?

 

Larry

 

 

Probably not every church. The reason I say this is that my wife and I attended a big church in her hometown of Jiujiang. I didn't see any of the officials that you mentioned but then again I probably wouldn't recognize them. But, my wife did not get questioned or asked for her ID. Looked to me like everyone there was free to come and go as they pleased.

[amberjack1234]

Charles that's great news to hear. Perhaps it shows that things are really changing and I am glad that I may have over stated the current views in China on freedom of worship. I did not mention, sorry ,that these events took place 10 years ago and in Beijing. When we were there 2 years ago she took me by that church and showed it to me there was no one in sight of the building. We did not try to go in. It is one of the oldest churches in China. If I can get her to we will visit that church in Beijing and go inside to see if there is an issue. Hopefully in the next few months. Perhaps credzba can/will add to this. Perhaps he has had the same experience as you have.

 

I have read several article on line and seen at least one documentary on TV about this religious thing and they were reporting the same thing that my wife has related and they have been in the last 3-4 years. But it is the news media. Please don't ask for the links as I was just reading them and not making note of them to use here as ammunition for a debate. I am sure that a search would produce some of the same.

 

Larry

[Randy W]

It's amazing how easily people can be lulled into accepting (and even embracing) a loss of freedom - especially when it doesn't affect them directly and the administration (apparently) has the best interest of the people in mind (however mistaken they may or may not be).

 

Watching CCTV News (CCTV 9), there has been almost daily (continuing as of today) coverage of the Diaoyu Islands incident (ALWAYS including the words "illegal detainment"), but, of course, no mention of the Nobel Peace Prize.

[chilton747]

This was back in 2005. Wife did tell me that the building of this church was overseen by a US citizen. I saw several different nationalities attending there. This was a large church with approx 500 or more people attending the service.

 

Not sure if you remember or not but I stated a while back that I never believed the media in any form anyway.

[Dennis143]

 

 

Probably not every church. The reason I say this is that my wife and I attended a big church in her hometown of Jiujiang. I didn't see any of the officials that you mentioned but then again I probably wouldn't recognize them. But, my wife did not get questioned or asked for her ID. Looked to me like everyone there was free to come and go as they pleased.

 

Churches in China are licensed and overseen by the Chinese government. Messages (sermons) are pre-approved by the government.

 

Private gatherings outside these churches are illegal. Citizens cannot meet for prayer or bible study within their homes or outside these established churches.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Dennis143 (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

I love China, I've never felt threatened there. Unlike America though Chinese are not free to express their disagreement with the Government. I have yet to see one picket line in China or anyone protesting any government policy in a public place. Try protesting the one child policy in front of the court house there and see what happens.

[chilton747]

 

 

Probably not every church. The reason I say this is that my wife and I attended a big church in her hometown of Jiujiang. I didn't see any of the officials that you mentioned but then again I probably wouldn't recognize them. But, my wife did not get questioned or asked for her ID. Looked to me like everyone there was free to come and go as they pleased.

 

Churches in China are licensed and overseen by the Chinese government. Messages (sermons) are pre-approved by the government.

 

Private gatherings outside these churches are illegal. Citizens cannot meet for prayer or bible study within their homes or outside these established churches.

 

 

That's the way I have always heard it as well.