Article about Chinese Language

[Robert S.]

Written Vernaculars in Asia

 

I just happened to run across this and it was so interesting I had to call attention to it.

[JamesnYuHong]

Written Vernaculars in Asia

 

I just happened to run across this and it was so interesting I had to call attention to it.

 

Interesting. The comments, more so than the post.

 

I liked this point about classical Chinese:

 

Beyond simple archaism, the Chinese also developed a sort of coded language, not quite as absurd as Cockney rhyming slang, but almost. Every phrase had to be understood allusively rather than at face value, based on the assumption that all readers had read and memorized the same 30-volume library. Only a few highly-trained Chinese are able to read that particular style of writing any more. It went extinct with the Confucian examination system.

 

It echoes a point made by John Moser in an article called Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard. He notes that "whereas modern Mandarin is merely perversely hard, classical Chinese is deliberately impossible" and makes this comparison:

 

An uninitiated westerner can no more be expected to understand such writing than Confucius himself, if transported to the present, could understand the entries in the "personal" section of the classified ads that say things like: "Hndsm. SWGM, 24, 160, sks BGM or WGM for gentle S&M, mod. bndg., some lthr., twosm or threesm ok, have own equip., wheels, 988-8752 lv. mssg. on ans. mach., no weirdos please."

 

Unfortunately, modern Mandarin is full of idioms and other little twists that come from classical Chinese. There are also the many references to culture, both historical and present, that are hard for a foreigner to catch. I guess it's like that with any language. If you get a group of American guys together, ages 30 to 50, think of how many times they might reference song lyrics, anything from Led Zeppelin to Tone Loc (Funky Cold Medina!) Also, if they're white collar guys, how many times would they quote verbatim from the movie Office Space? How would a Chinese person ever make sense of it all?

 

Fortunately, modern Chinese mainly talk about food and making money, so if you know how to talk about those topics, you're more than halfway to fluency.

Edited July 8, 2010 by JamesnYuHong (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I think part of the reason for the "code" is because some wanted to suggest how the government should be run but could not be so blunt. I have participated for many years at a website where we discuss the translation of the Dao De Jing written by Lao Zi and we often fall into trying to see the 'coded' meaning.

 

The other difficulty is that ancient chinese follows writing on bones and then bamboo and then silk. The character set was very compact and meaning was built into context. Not until the first Qin dynasty was there an attempt to standardize the language. Not only are translates often requiring more words to describe the meaning but an ancient chinese writing re-written in modern chinese also takes more characters.

[david_dawei]

robert... I now read this article and appreciate your posting it even more. I see someone made a comment along my lines:

 

Xiaolongnu wrote, "The First Emperor of Qin . . . was a Legalist reformer and standardized the heck out of everything -- weights, measures, chariot axles, road widths, and of course the writing system." True, but to use the word "reformer" for a criminal psychopath may do him more honor than he deserves. As the anonymous author of Chapter 10 of Zhuangzi recognized, instituting standard weights and measures tends to be the first action of a tyrant who wishes to standardize his theft.

 

Posted by: Dave at May 4, 2004 09:52 AM

For what it's worth, I was using the word "reform" in its neutral sense as a synonym for "restructure." I don't think the word's positive valence is all that strong anyhow. Qinshihuang was a "Legalist reformer" in the sense that he remade Chinese institutions of governance in a Legalist model.

 

And there are a lot comments about poetry which by its nature is more allusive. I have read and studied chinese poetry for almost 6 years and would agree that almost anything can (and is) be hidden in chinese poetry. There may be no better expression than ancient chinese poetry where it is said that the reader feels the setting with only describing a few words.

 

I will give a simple example from a female poety, Li Qing Zhao, who wrote four simple words of 'green fat, red thin': Â̷ʺìÊÝ

 

This is an expression of the lush green leaves invigorated by the rain among the red flowers which survive the windy season.