And another one bites the dust ...

[chengdu4me]

I guess he thought if someone added the pages for him they would not do a name check ...

 

Could be. I guess I'll find out after work when I get home just what his reaction is.

 

It used to be they wouldn't do a name check on adding pages, but now the consulates have instructions to do a name check for everything.

 

What kind of surprised me was that for $2500 in back child support they can nuke a passport, too.

Having been through a divorce in the USA (with children/child support/custody issues) it does not surprise me at all (either that they do it or that the dollar limit is so low). In fact, while I am not trying to defend this guy, it would not surprise me if the back child support amount is only "alleged to be owed" meaning the ex-spouse only has to file a claim for back child support not that it has been proven the person in actually in arrears.

 

 

The state cannot certify to the Department of Human Services that over $2500 is owed unless there is a child support order issued by a judge. That requires a hearing, doesn't it?

 

 

In many states, your payment for child support must be made to the state and then the payment is recorded and then sent on to the custodial parent. If there is no record of payment, the state Child Support Enforcement office merely needs to notify the judge that payments are not being made. This triggers a bench warrant which triggers notification to the HHS which triggers the passport hold/revocation. The burden of proof is on the payer, not the gov. If an $8 an hour clerk makes a typo, you can be screwed!

[GDBILL]

I guess he thought if someone added the pages for him they would not do a name check ...

 

Could be. I guess I'll find out after work when I get home just what his reaction is.

 

It used to be they wouldn't do a name check on adding pages, but now the consulates have instructions to do a name check for everything.

 

What kind of surprised me was that for $2500 in back child support they can nuke a passport, too.

Having been through a divorce in the USA (with children/child support/custody issues) it does not surprise me at all (either that they do it or that the dollar limit is so low). In fact, while I am not trying to defend this guy, it would not surprise me if the back child support amount is only "alleged to be owed" meaning the ex-spouse only has to file a claim for back child support not that it has been proven the person in actually in arrears.

 

 

The state cannot certify to the Department of Human Services that over $2500 is owed unless there is a child support order issued by a judge. That requires a hearing, doesn't it?

 

 

In many states, your payment for child support must be made to the state and then the payment is recorded and then sent on to the custodial parent. If there is no record of payment, the state Child Support Enforcement office merely needs to notify the judge that payments are not being made. This triggers a bench warrant which triggers notification to the HHS which triggers the passport hold/revocation. The burden of proof is on the payer, not the gov. If an $8 an hour clerk makes a typo, you can be screwed!

 

 

I see what you mean. And I'm sure what you described does happen -- though hopefully not often.

[GDBILL]

The bottom line is this...if you have Child Support issues, you need to deal with them before hopping a plane to live in a foreign country. Whether you are going for very innocent reasons or are hiding, BIG Brother will catch up with you.

 

Personally, I support this effort to get proper support for children, but I also think that there is another way to do rather than just hamstring someone once they have left the country.

 

In this guys case, he can't stay and he can't leave without just handing himself over to the Consulate for removal and arrest when he arrives back at a POE.

 

 

I agree. People need to support the children they create and just can't run away from their responsibility. Still, there are cases -- hopefully not many -- where the non-custodial parent gets taken for a ride and / or ends up in arrears on their child support payments through no fault of their own.

 

I have friends from as far back as high school who have been caught up in the whole child support / family court machine and from what they've described it is not a pretty picture. I have a colleague who was actually indicted by a grand jury for willful failure to pay child support because of a moronic family court judge who just couldn't understand the impossibility of being a father to a child born 2 years after the last time he had slept with his wife.

 

So, I think ... There but for the grace of God ... and in such an emotionally charged issue somehow passport denial seems like an option that is just too extreme. There just has to be a better way.

[GDBILL]

" .... Don't assume too much. Not all of us are uninformed, rumor-mongering zealots with overactive imaginations and too much free time on their hands who don't know 1) the definition of privacy, 2) definition of fair play (i.e. innocent until proven guilty) and 3) slander...."

 

Hey Bill ~ !

 

You're the Guy way out there posting the dark comments ~ REREAD YOUR PREVIOUS POSTS ~ " About par for the course with some of the crud they have teaching in China, sadly."

 

I (very carefully) suggested that you only report exactly what you DO know factually---that his passport has been confiscated. I assume that protects the children if necessary, in that it triggers a 'sit down" with his employer to explain why that might have happened.

 

".. and 3) slander...." And here's some news Bill: if its factual, its not slander. you may want to consider deleting those parts of your previous posts which are pure conjecture.

 

 

Don't quit your day job just in case vigilantism can't pay the bills.

 

When privacy legislation prevents even State Department officials from revealing details of consular decisions in individual matters, it's highly unlikely I am stupid enough as you suggest to tell someone's employer that the employee's passport was revoked and run the risk that this causes issues for my wife.

 

If I thought the guy was dangerous I'd alert the PSB to a potential illegal alien issue. And if the issue were really serious then the State Department will see go through the Chinese authorities to seek his return to the US.

 

Listening to the guy last night for a couple of hours has left me with the impression that he may not really be a bad guy.

[knloregon]

Hey ~ ! POINT TAKEN BILL ~ !!

 

Everyone here can read, and will make their own decisions regarding this thread .... WHICH YOU STARTED!

 

btw, here in Oregon, we have a mediatory reporting law, which my wife is subjected too... if she found out about this kind of infraction, (that is: had first hand knowledge, not 'hear-say' ---as YOU do) ---she might be required by law to tell her administrators. I would certainly advise her to do so.

 

HEY! its on your head Guy... do what you thinks best, just note that you have done a 180 in the last 24 hours, and the only thing that seems to have changed is that you have spoken to this teacher and have his side of the story.

 

Doesn't change the fact that YOU know that his passport has been confiscated..

 

All you have-------------------------is his side of the story.

[chengdu4me]

This is not Oregon..this is China! In China, you mind your own business. It is not GDBill's place to inform anyone of anything unless it directly has a negative impact on his own life/business/safety. If he were to say anything to anyone and the facts played out later on to be not as he stated, he would lose face and lose credibility.

 

Whatever mess this guy got himself into with DOS, HHS is his business.

 

I understand that Bill post was a informative one to relate what can happen when you allegedly don't live up to your responsibilities. While his post may have also had some conjecture, the main point is still the main point.

 

While this does not apply to me (no kids), it is a good lesson for anyone that may find themselves in this situation or is thinking of making a move to avoid the financial burden of an greedy ex and/or one-sided legal system.

[shenzhen]

I guess he thought if someone added the pages for him they would not do a name check ...

 

Could be. I guess I'll find out after work when I get home just what his reaction is.

 

It used to be they wouldn't do a name check on adding pages, but now the consulates have instructions to do a name check for everything.

 

What kind of surprised me was that for $2500 in back child support they can nuke a passport, too.

Having been through a divorce in the USA (with children/child support/custody issues) it does not surprise me at all (either that they do it or that the dollar limit is so low). In fact, while I am not trying to defend this guy, it would not surprise me if the back child support amount is only "alleged to be owed" meaning the ex-spouse only has to file a claim for back child support not that it has been proven the person in actually in arrears.

 

 

The state cannot certify to the Department of Human Services that over $2500 is owed unless there is a child support order issued by a judge. That requires a hearing, doesn't it?

 

 

In many states, your payment for child support must be made to the state and then the payment is recorded and then sent on to the custodial parent. If there is no record of payment, the state Child Support Enforcement office merely needs to notify the judge that payments are not being made. This triggers a bench warrant which triggers notification to the HHS which triggers the passport hold/revocation. The burden of proof is on the payer, not the gov. If an $8 an hour clerk makes a typo, you can be screwed!

 

 

I see what you mean. And I'm sure what you described does happen -- though hopefully not often.

Larry is exactly correct in that the burden of proof is on the payer. A judgement can also be ordered/entered into the court system at a hearing without the defendent being present.

Edited April 7, 2010 by shenzhen (see edit history)

[amberjack1234]

This is not Oregon..this is China! In China, you mind your own business. It is not GDBill's place to inform anyone of anything unless it directly has a negative impact on his own life/business/safety. If he were to say anything to anyone and the facts played out later on to be not as he stated, he would lose face and lose credibility.

 

Whatever mess this guy got himself into with DOS, HHS is his business.

 

I understand that Bill post was a informative one to relate what can happen when you allegedly don't live up to your responsibilities. While his post may have also had some conjecture, the main point is still the main point.

 

While this does not apply to me (no kids), it is a good lesson for anyone that may find themselves in this situation or is thinking of making a move to avoid the financial burden of an greedy ex and/or one-sided legal system.

I don't think that it can be said any more better/plainly than that. I agree 100%. I have not always felt this way but I have in the last few years. As a natter of fact I have read post by foreign teachers in China that reported incidents to the police and later found themselves in trouble with the police. One guy ,like Bill, got his wife to call the police on a man somewhere in their housing complex beating his wife. The police could not find the location of the disturbance and then came to his home with accusations of filing a false report. It's China and they do things their own way.

 

Larry

Edited April 7, 2010 by amberjack1234 (see edit history)

[GDBILL]

Hey ~ ! POINT TAKEN BILL ~ !!

 

Everyone here can read, and will make their own decisions regarding this thread .... WHICH YOU STARTED!

 

btw, here in Oregon, we have a mediatory reporting law, which my wife is subjected too... if she found out about this kind of infraction, (that is: had first hand knowledge, not 'hear-say' ---as YOU do) ---she might be required by law to tell her administrators. I would certainly advise her to do so.

 

HEY! its on your head Guy... do what you thinks best, just note that you have done a 180 in the last 24 hours, and the only thing that seems to have changed is that you have spoken to this teacher and have his side of the story.

 

Doesn't change the fact that YOU know that his passport has been confiscated..

 

All you have-------------------------is his side of the story.

 

Please point us to any law in Oregon which requires one to report one who has had their passport revoked or denied to their employer(s).

 

Besides, whether or not I think someone is crud doesn't mean I am going to get involved and interfere with the way they legally make their living. I can just imagine you the type of individual who would narc out a neighbor because they were a week overdue on their library book. Some of us have better things to do with our lives.

 

If I had firsthand knowledge that the guy was an imminent danger, I'd report him as an illegal alien. Otherwise, I'll leave his fate in the hands of the State Department.

[GDBILL]

This is not Oregon..this is China! In China, you mind your own business. It is not GDBill's place to inform anyone of anything unless it directly has a negative impact on his own life/business/safety. If he were to say anything to anyone and the facts played out later on to be not as he stated, he would lose face and lose credibility.

 

Whatever mess this guy got himself into with DOS, HHS is his business.

 

I understand that Bill post was a informative one to relate what can happen when you allegedly don't live up to your responsibilities. While his post may have also had some conjecture, the main point is still the main point.

 

While this does not apply to me (no kids), it is a good lesson for anyone that may find themselves in this situation or is thinking of making a move to avoid the financial burden of an greedy ex and/or one-sided legal system.

 

True.

 

If I thought there was danger lurking around the corner, I might try doing something. But at this point I'll let Uncle Sam do what needs to be done -- if anything.

 

Even if there were some safety related issues at stake, I'd let the cops handle it. Going to someone's employer is pretty low. Not only is there the issue of making a mistake and losing credibility, but there is the possibility of slander / violations of privacy.

 

Personally, I don't agree with the government on passport denial just because someone is in arrears $2500. But that's the law ... they do it ... and it's good to take into consideration lest one be "surprised" one day. Heck, I was susprised they could do that and were I the one with no passport I'd be pooping bricks about now.

[credzba]

its SPECIFICALLY teachers, and others who work with children----to State authorities. And in the 2009 Oregon legislature, the reporting obligation was expanded under a host of new laws addressing a broad category of teachers who have slipped through the system---called: "Pass the Trash" So here are two of several for you Big Guy---all became Oregon law: "House Bill 2063: Adds to teachers existing obligation to report, certain Teacher Standards and Practices Commission employees in the list of people required to report child abuse." "House Bill 2062: Expands background checks for newly hired educators: Prohibits making deals to conceal sexual misconduct."

 

 

I live in Texas, and in fact the law here specifically protects you against legal action based on your reporting suspected abuse.

Certain occupations are required to report suspicious things.

 

That said, GDBILL isn't in America, and really doesn't have any suspicion to report, just the guy is in trouble in America somehow, and really that is best left to the legal folks.

 

I don't agree with the way GBILL presents things, but I do agree that just because a guy has his passport yanked, is not a good reason to be suspicious of him.

Reporting that he is now illegally in the country is honest, and might help the school avoid problems. That seems a reasonable thing to do, if any.

 

Just my opinion, and we all know what that is worth.

[GDBILL]

its SPECIFICALLY teachers, and others who work with children----to State authorities. And in the 2009 Oregon legislature, the reporting obligation was expanded under a host of new laws addressing a broad category of teachers who have slipped through the system---called: "Pass the Trash" So here are two of several for you Big Guy---all became Oregon law: "House Bill 2063: Adds to teachers existing obligation to report, certain Teacher Standards and Practices Commission employees in the list of people required to report child abuse." "House Bill 2062: Expands background checks for newly hired educators: Prohibits making deals to conceal sexual misconduct."

 

 

I live in Texas, and in fact the law here specifically protects you against legal action based on your reporting suspected abuse.

Certain occupations are required to report suspicious things.

 

That said, GDBILL isn't in America, and really doesn't have any suspicion to report, just the guy is in trouble in America somehow, and really that is best left to the legal folks.

 

I don't agree with the way GBILL presents things, but I do agree that just because a guy has his passport yanked, is not a good reason to be suspicious of him.

Reporting that he is now illegally in the country is honest, and might help the school avoid problems. That seems a reasonable thing to do, if any.

 

Just my opinion, and we all know what that is worth.

 

Gotta agree with you.

 

To report suspected abuse you have to have more than just a sneaking suspicion. There has to be something that specifically indicates abuse other than one taking a wild trip on an overactive imagination.

 

Someone mentioning to you that they may have a warrant out on them for some unnamed offense doesn't indicate child abuse. You might call the cops and tell them there is a fugitive living next door to you (unless, of course, they already know), but you're not going to call the guy's employer. Well, at least normal people like us wouldn't.

[shenzhen]

Outcome?

[GDBILL]

Outcome?

 

 

None. The guy's still around. Saw him yesterday leaving the house in our compound where he tutors.

 

Wife asked the legal attache if he needed any additional information on where guy lived or worked and he told her he's still awaiting word from D.C., but his guess is there'll be no follow up.

 

When I spoke with the guy and gave him the letter from the Consulate he offered that he suspected they were going to also try and prosecute him for willful non-payment of child support. Sooner or later he'll have to leave China and, unless he has dual citizenship somewhere, return to the US.

 

I was talking with a few colleagues at work about this and I guess the US isn't the only country to revoke passports in the case of past due child support. Looks like Canada and the UK do the same. Makes you want to think long and hard before you have kids.

[Guest jin979]

Outcome?

 

 

If its now with DOS & USA legal system, better wait MANY years for any decision of course send many of thousands of $$$$$ to lawyers