clarifications

[Orrin]

I think that, in my last posting, I may have left a few wrong impressions, and that I didn't explain my points well enough. What follows are a few more explanatory thoughts which may help to clear things up a bit.

 

It is said that pain is one sensation that the human body cannot remember. That may be true for physical pain, but emotional pain, such as that caused by prolonged separation from a loved one, is an entirely different story. I know exactly what most of you are going through. As our former fearless leader, and strong military supporter, William Jefferson Clinton once said; "Ah feeeel yer pain". I have experienced that pain myself, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I have dealt with the people at the GZ consulate on numerous occasions, and I'm well aware of the unclear statements, broken promises, and outright lies that you can, on occasion, get from them.

 

After visiting my wife in China in March of 2000, I mailed the K1 petition to the INS center in Texas on April 4, 2000. The 11 months that followed turned out to be a nightmare of frustration and emotional roller coaster rides for both Kellee and I. I never did receive a Notice of Arrival. I made countless phone calls to Texas, and kept getting replies such as; It has not arrived yet. We can't find it. It must be lost in the mail. and, finally, We have your envelope with the petition, but there's no money in it! Instead of sending a personal check with the petition, I had sent a money order in the mistaken belief that it would speed the processing time.

 

Finally, I got to speak with a supervisor at the Texas center. She told me to re-file the petition, but that I would not have to send any more money with it. I did exactly that.

 

About a week later, she called to tell me that they had received the new petition, but they couldn't approve it because there wasn't sufficient proof of my visit to China. All of the photos, the entry and exit stamps in my passport, and the airline ticket-stubs were not, to them, sufficient proof of my visit. Kellee and I were both devastated.

 

During all of this time Kellee and I had maintained daily contact on ICQ and by phone. Because we were both so depressed, our daily chats or conversations, which had once been the high point of my day, now became almost a dreaded chore. Our relationship was almost at the brink of dissolution. I had suggested that she try to come to the U.S. on a tourist visa. At least she would be here, and we could address the immigration issues later. I even suggested that she try for a tourist visa to Cuba. Once there, she could hop onto the first boat headed anywhere near Key West and try to swim ashore. At that time, the Ilian Gonzalez thing was going on, and some officials within the U.S. government were not only offering this 12 year-old boy an instant visa, but CITIZENSHIP!! She firmly rejected that plan. She wanted to do things correctly, and not wind up as an illegal alien in the U.S. I (we) were at our wits end.

 

You must remember that, when you are dealing with the GZ consulate, the NVC, the FBI, or the BCIS, you're dealing with an agency of the federal government. Who are agencies of the federal government staffed by? They're staffed by a bunch of overpaid, under-worked, strap-hanging beaurocrats who could give a damm less about your situation or that of your lady. Do you think for an instant that they really care whether you have spent a lot of $$ for wedding reception reservations or non-refundable airline tickets as a result of something that they told you? I don't think so. To them, you are nothing more than a case number, or a name on a list.

 

When the DOS, the GZ consulate, the BCIS, the FBI, the NVC, or any other government agency tells you that something will be, or should be, or is scheduled to be completed in 2 days, 3 months, or 2 years, THAT IS AN ESTIMATE, and you know as well as I do that the government can't give a reasonably accurate estimate about what time the sun is going to come up tomorrow. Why should they be any more accurate with the estimate about your immigration petition?

 

So, if you lose a bunch of $$ on non-refundable airline tickets, wedding reception deposits, or the like, that you purchased as the result of something that someone in the GZ consulate , or some other government agency told you, who is really at fault? Them, or YOU for making those financial commitments before you actually have the visa in-hand? I had a difficult time getting my wife a tourist visa in Jan. of '02. Dispite my wife's pleadings, I held off buying the air tickets until she had the tourist visa in her passport. Yes, it cost me a few bucks more than if I had bought them earlier, but it saved me a hell of a lot more than if I had bought them prior to her first visa interview, at which time, her visa was denied.

 

I fully understand that this board is an excellent place to get some helpful information and to vent our frustrations with the whole miserable process, and it distresses me to read about the emotional stress that many of you are going through while you wait for your lady's paperwork to emerge from the "black holes" of the BCIS, NVC, FBI, or the GZ consulate.

 

I have a very dear friend whose fiance just happens to be my wife's best friend back in China. I should mention here that he met her completely independent of any involvement form my wife or I. He submitted her K1 petition in March of this year. When he did, he got the standard reply; "This will take approximately 180 days for approval." From that point on he was counting the days. He and I had almost daily contact on the Internet, and I was in the middle of the I-130 process for my wife; (I was still in China at that time.) As each day passed, I could sense the emotional distress he was experiencing. After 180 days had passed and nothing had happened, every passing day became pure torture for him. Believe me, this man was torturing himself with the unrealistic assumption that the government was going to get everything done when they said they would, in the time-frame that they estimated. Finally, after 196 days, he got word of his P2. When he got word of the P2, his emotional release was absolutely heartbreaking. Now, his petition has cleared the FBI and NVC, but still has not been recorded by the people in the GZ consulate...................... more self-torture!

 

Most, not all, but most, of this emotional pain and distress can be avoided if one realizes that the government is going to do things in their own sweet time. They will get it done when they get it done, and there isn't a dammed thing you can do to speed it up other than to make sure that ALL of your paperwork is complete and correct when you submit it. That's an area where this board can be extremely helpful.

 

If I thought for an instant that staging a demonstration in GZ, Texas, Nebraska, Vermont, or any other place would speed up the process by one nanosecond, I'd be the first one in line with the biggest sign. The truth of the matter is that, by staging such an action, you have absolutely NOTHING to gain, and EVERYTHING to lose. If your lady doesn't realize and understand that you are doing everything, within the system, to get her visa for her, then there are many more serious questions you should be asking yourself.

 

I wish everyone here the best, and hope that you are with your loved one as soon as possible.

 

BTW, one thing that I forgot to mention in my last posting is that, when I returned to the U.S. from Nam, I became one of the very early members of the VVAW. I'm certain that there are some of you out there who are old enough to remember what that organization was all about. In 1970 I made the trip to Washington DC where my Purple Heart and Viet Nam service medals found their way to the steps of the US Capitol building. During the entire 4 years that I was in the military I was a world-class "bitcher". The way I saw it, the military could do nothing right, and I took every opportunity to let everyone know it. After all, I was a 20 year-old who knew everything there was to know about the military, the government, and the world in general. Why wouldn't those stupid, old, brass-hat farts listen to me, and instantly implement every suggestion I made? It's amazing how 30+ years can change one's whole outlook on times past.

[Patrick & Li]

Nice post Orrin, But you need to understand..... Not everyone sent in their petitions knowing what a timeline was. And the truth is for me.... Yes, i am bitching about the Government because i think they unduly delay this process. Every single step is laborious. Redundancy is absolutely horrible with this immigration process. It drives me crazy!

But you want to know what really drives me to whine and complain?

I miss my wife! I miss her soft voice, I miss her kisses. I miss her caring for me. I miss her love! Those are the things that are truly driving me to bitch, whine and complain about this process, and i truly wont be happy till she is here.

 

Have a good day, Patrick

[frank1538]

I think that, in my last posting, I may have left a few wrong impressions, and that I didn't explain my points well enough.  What follows are a few more explanatory thoughts which may help to clear things up a bit.

Orrin, thanks for the elaboration, but I think that many of us know what you meant. I certainly did. It is not fatalism. It is realization and a determination to see it through despite the endless snafus that the government throws our way. You certainly felt some of the highest frustration levels foisted upon a citizen by the government.

 

As relates to the Viet Nam era, I think we were both young Turks in those days. As the song goes: "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

[keelec]

Orrin,

 

Thanks for the long, interesting story. I am glad that not only does our country recognize differences of opinion, but the moderators of this board do to (as long as opinions are discussed without personal insults)..

 

The world would be so boring if everyone was taking Soma (Huxley, Brave new World), and everyone lived in a daze, thinking exactly the same way.

 

I know that you have had a tremendous nightmare with the visa application process, and yours probably was much worse than the "average", even including the original black hole group and applicants receiving the famous "White Slips"

 

I am still hoping that I am nearing the end of this nightmare. I have now been waiting for my P3/P4 packet for over 3 months with seemingly no progress (bringing my total wait to 11 months now, and the earliest possible arrival date for my Fiancée to be in February or March (14 months or so).

 

Personally, I have very little to gain with protesting the processing delays in February as it will be late in my application. Perhaps someone will get pissed off at me if they think of me as an "organizer" and cause the application to be inappropriately denied.

 

However, my point is that this process is inappropriate. And, until we let others know including the American Public, it will continue to be handled improperly.

 

We have a small voice. 20,000 immigrants enter the USA on K1-K4 visas each year including only a handful from China and Russia. Perhaps there are 100 "active" users on this BB system.

 

Why would anybody listen to us……. The laws were written because of the "Mexican Problem". We have millions of illegal aliens from the south to deal with…… If given a chance, they would overrun our country and take away all of our JOBS!!!!!!!

 

Unfortunately, the "Candle" will never make national news. I doubt that anybody at CNN actually knows that we exist.

 

The way to change the process is to let the American People know that there is a problem. To make it a big enough issue that the US Congressmen will stop just sending polite inquiries to the different offices, and start to write legislation that is designed to streamline the process.

 

If we can hit CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC with reports about what we have been going through, even for one day, it could make an impact on the process.

 

--------------

 

You bring up that you are a Vietnam Veteran. In many senses, it was the "Forgotten War", or at least the "Forgotten Warriors". In the past, WW1 and WW2 veterans returned as American Heroes. They had job opportunities waiting for them. Monuments were erected to their sacrifice.

 

Yet, the Vietnam Soldiers returned to the USA with no jobs. Many of them were severely maimed. Many had serious issues from their time in Jungle Warfare where anybody could be the enemy and a rustling tree or a rumble of a plane overhead could be bringing death.

 

They returned in a time that the USA was ready to put that bad experience behind them and move on.

 

With 30 years of perseverance, the Vietnam Veterans of America finally have a monument in Washington DC to symbolize their sacrifice forever. The names of every soldier that died in the war is permanently etched on granite in our capital to be seen forever.

 

Had your fellow soldiers just tried to forget that nightmare, there would never have been a monument built in Washington DC, and the country would not be recognizing your sacrifice.

 

Of course, I do not believe the world should bow to every soldier wearing a purple heart. At some point, they also need to move on with their lives and take responsibility for their actions.

 

-------------

 

If we do not speak up, we will be forgotten like the forgotten warriors of the past.

 

----- Clifford -----

[hypoclear]

wanted to post this quickly before I go out. I had skimmed your post last week and some of the replys before we went out than as well. So on the lo9ng bus ride to... doesn't matter where you go always a long bus ride.. even to the mail box downstairs..

 

Bitching and complaining are want of a better life and the knowledge that we can have it.

 

But the thought was a documentary. This would be a long one with as many people as possible and naturely a few couples to focus on. Tough thing to do but putting a face on these so called immigrants, hey!! we're we all them at one time??, and the fact that these peole come from the former communist countries would have an aded spin to it.

 

I think it could raise maybe a small national debate or at the least put a human touch on this whole process.

 

You know the ups and downs of it, dreams and disillussions of it etc.

 

Mark

[keelec]

Hypoclear,

 

Yes, perhaps one of the problems is that for many Americans this is a "faceless" issue. A group of foreigners just finding an excuse to be able to come to the USA.

 

They don't think about the Americans who are dedicated to their fiancees and spouses. They don't think about the loving families that are being seperated. And they don't think about the freedom that we have to enter nearly any country in the world.... Only to block our own citizen's spouses from coming into the USA.

 

----- Clifford -----

[MarkLuvsShuPing]

Extremely well written and thoughtful posts gentlemen. You both (Orrin and keelec) make very valid points, both of you are very right in your perspectives. This is an issue that confronts each and every one of us on this board, even the ones who are blessed enough to have their spouses here with them. They have been through the fire and care enough to show the way for the rest of us, they maintain a quiet protest by providing this forum. We all handle this in our own way.

 

I am very new to this process and I've already learned more than I want to know. The pain and anquish, the frustration and disappointment lay before me and I wish to God there was someone who could just fix it before I have to deal with it. But I have chosen a path that I can not turn away from now.

 

I'll relate this story only because it makes a point, not because I am a hero. The night of September 11th I went to my job figuring to have another uneventful overnight shift. I am the overnight supervisor of a residential treatment facility for mentally/emotionally ill children. They range in ages from 8 to 18. To make a long story short, 2 boys, 17 and 18 had run away, they came back to pair up with 2 girls who tried to run, but were stopped by 2 of my staff and I. Marci, one of the staff was holding one of the girls on the ground when James, one of the boys, came running out of the shadows with a stick bigger than a baseball bat. He would have killed a defenseless Marci if I had not run up to intercept him. I was hit instead of her. In the end, we subdued the boys and the police took them away and the girls came back on their own.

 

The point of my story is, in that moment when I realized that I had to get hit with a stick or watch someone get killed or seriously injured, my thoughts were "I don't want to do this, but I have to. God, just make it go away." Still I continued to move forward, with a surreal determination that I've never experienced before.

 

This process that I have been and am about to go through, has been like that. When I decided that I would marry ShuPing I began doing things, taking initiative to get things done that I would never have been motivated to do before. I am, by nature, pretty lazy and I procrastinate to avoid lots of things. This process is different, I continue to move forward, even though it is a hassle and I don't want the aggrevation. It has already changed me and I'm not even married yet.

 

So when we talk about protesting this crap, I don't want to do it. I want to be the guy who just fills out the forms to the best of his ability, ensures that everything is in order, plays the game that the system has set up and waits my alloted time for the whole thing to be over with. I don't have time to go to Washington or Texas or wherever the hell else I need to go to complain. I just want someone to fix it and make it work faster.

 

Problem is, there's nobody but us who can get it fixed. There's no one else who can take a stick to the head to prevent someone else from suffering.

 

Prior to the Revolutionary War, 2 cousins helped to begin the process, Samuel Adams was a radical, protesting and causing trouble for the British, taking his case to the people in the loud voice of anarchy, while his cousin, John Adams, a lawyer, did his part with quiet, legal types of protests, laying the foundations for change, while he played the game given to him by the British monarchy.

 

I'm not a radical, I won't be going to any demonstrations or sit-ins or protests in Texas or D.C. or GZ or anywhere, sorry guys. But I do want this to change, I'm willing to contribute whatever knowledge I gain, whatever talent I have, to bring about the change, even though it would be a pain in my ass, I can't see just sitting here, doing nothing.

 

Change must come, this world is shrinking and the number of international relationships will only increase with time. Can we simply sit back and do nothing or do we move forward and sacrifice so that others don't have to?

[Orrin]

To all of you who have taken the time and effort to reply,

 

Thank you for your posts. You have my unending support in your efforts. I would like to offer this Christmas gift to all of you. I hope that on Christmas eve you will all be at the airport to welcome your sweetheart with open arms and wet eyes. What a wonderful Christmas it would be for all of us.