Democracy is not easy

[Yuanyang]

ok...ok... the point being there is not a pure democracy, never has been.

 

Closest ever was the Swiss city states, but please Socrates, Athens a city where only the select/upper class could vote, I think some of you guys should look back at Greek history, a democracy for just some.

 

Also I would just suggest when you throw in the "founding fathers" look at at how many slaves they had or their position of the emancipation all races and genders. I always find this founding fathers position interesting, but I guess from a country with less than 300 years history we have to start somewhere.

 

If you really want a definition of democracy read "rousseau" the social contract

 

Your right Rob, a "pure democracy' is just a theory. Is anything ever pure? Rousseau was one of the sources for the development of the Declaration of Independence, and also the Constitution. As was Voltaire, and the philosophers of the Scottish Enlightenment such as Hume, and Smith. Also John Locke who was influential upon Rousseau and Voltaire. The founders also were well read on Greek democracy and the Roman Republic.

 

I still think we need election reform.

 

Was it Churchill that said something like "democracy is a terrible form of government ... except for all the rest." {I really butchered it.}

He said "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

 

He also said ¡°The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.¡±

Thank You!

[david_dawei]

When I first saw the title, "Democracy is not easy"... my first thought was:

 

Democracy is not necessary.

 

I think it depends mostly on the region, culture and history... but I don't see democracy as a foregone conclusion as the right (and only) way.

[knloregon]

"..When I first saw the title, "Democracy is not easy"... my first thought was:

 

Democracy is not necessary.

 

I think it depends mostly on the region, culture and history... but I don't see democracy as a foregone conclusion as the right (and only) way..."

 

This is a GREAT segue David, I'm as hard boiled, at this point, as any of us who has been on the ground in China (basically ALL of us---which is why this conversation is relevant )...

 

And in extended conversations with (one in particular) Communist member---the old line really do believe in democracy for China........ just not now. And as I have posted here----(Authoritarian) China has done a much better job in the very basics of human dignity than has (Democratic) India..

 

But that can change ~ ! And its my firm belief---(along with the old Communist).... IT WILL! It needs the passage of time, material security, and then, the focus on the physical environment (where your children play) and secondly, the political environment (why isn't the play ground cleaner ~!)

[A Mafan]

"..When I first saw the title, "Democracy is not easy"... my first thought was:

 

Democracy is not necessary.

 

I think it depends mostly on the region, culture and history... but I don't see democracy as a foregone conclusion as the right (and only) way..."

 

This is a GREAT segue David, I'm as hard boiled, at this point, as any of us who has been on the ground in China (basically ALL of us---which is why this conversation is relevant )...

 

And in extended conversations with (one in particular) Communist member---the old line really do believe in democracy for China........ just not now. And as I have posted here----(Authoritarian) China has done a much better job in the very basics of human dignity than has (Democratic) India..

 

But that can change ~ ! And its my firm belief---(along with the old Communist).... IT WILL! It needs the passage of time, material security, and then, the focus on the physical environment (where your children play) and secondly, the political environment (why isn't the play ground cleaner ~!)

Democracy means: the people rule, or populist rule.

Nowhere in the term does it say anything about voting.

 

If the government is responsive to the needs/desires of the people, keeping them safe and creating opportunities for wealth-building, it is a democracy, regardless of whether there is voting or not.

 

...on the other hand, it is *extremely* difficult to know what the will of the people is without allowing a better form of input than street riots (the main method of popular input available to the average Chinese rural citizen).

 

Voting is one of the best ways of providing that feedback to elected officials.

 

But just because it is a good method doesn't mean it is the only way, nor is it the only good way.

 

The legend of the old Chinese emperor who disguised himself as a servant and talked with all his subjects is also a form of democracy.

[knloregon]

unfortunately, really can't agree with any of your last post AM.

 

Voting is necessary, because majority rule defines Democracy. You can't determine a majority without a count. Nixon thought you could. (he had the silent majority on HIS side..) But alot of us war protesters at the time had to differ..

 

And in China, even a complacent population (one without street riots) doesn't necessarily mean a happy one---as in supportive of government decisions.

 

the vote is one of the classic tools of a true Democracy. (I believe the term 'black ball' came from the early Greek experiment ---to vote against.)

[A Mafan]

unfortunately, really can't agree with any of your last post AM.

 

Voting is necessary, because majority rule defines Democracy. You can't determine a majority without a count. Nixon thought you could. (he had the silent majority on HIS side..) But alot of us war protesters at the time had to differ..

 

And in China, even a complacent population (one without street riots) doesn't necessarily mean a happy one---as in supportive of government decisions.

 

the vote is one of the classic tools of a true Democracy. (I believe the term 'black ball' came from the early Greek experiment ---to vote against.)

I'm not sure what you disagree with.

 

Etymology of democracy:

1570s, from M.Fr. democratie, from M.L. democratia (13c.), from Gk. demokratia, from demos "common people," originally "district" (see demotic), + kratos "rule, strength" (see -cracy).

 

In the US, we instituted democracy through voting. No dispute.

 

But there is nothing in the original greek words about voting, which was my point.

 

How do you understand and explain Wen Jiabao's claim that China has democracy, then? He made the claim back in 2006-7.

[Guest Liuling]

unfortunately, really can't agree with any of your last post AM.

 

Voting is necessary, because majority rule defines Democracy. You can't determine a majority without a count. Nixon thought you could. (he had the silent majority on HIS side..) But alot of us war protesters at the time had to differ..

 

And in China, even a complacent population (one without street riots) doesn't necessarily mean a happy one---as in supportive of government decisions.

 

the vote is one of the classic tools of a true Democracy. (I believe the term 'black ball' came from the early Greek experiment ---to vote against.)

I'm not sure what you disagree with.

 

Etymology of democracy:

1570s, from M.Fr. democratie, from M.L. democratia (13c.), from Gk. demokratia, from demos "common people," originally "district" (see demotic), + kratos "rule, strength" (see -cracy).

 

In the US, we instituted democracy through voting. No dispute.

 

But there is nothing in the original greek words about voting, which was my point.

 

How do you understand and explain Wen Jiabao's claim that China has democracy, then? He made the claim back in 2006-7.

 

Only in ancient Greece was democracy practiced. The Greek citizens voted on every legislative agenda. In America, we have a Republic; not a democracy! We elect representatives to vote for us on legislative issues and hope that they are not representing other interests.

[b.c]

unfortunately, really can't agree with any of your last post AM.

 

Voting is necessary, because majority rule defines Democracy. You can't determine a majority without a count. Nixon thought you could. (he had the silent majority on HIS side..) But alot of us war protesters at the time had to differ..

 

And in China, even a complacent population (one without street riots) doesn't necessarily mean a happy one---as in supportive of government decisions.

 

the vote is one of the classic tools of a true Democracy. (I believe the term 'black ball' came from the early Greek experiment ---to vote against.)

I'm not sure what you disagree with.

 

Etymology of democracy:

1570s, from M.Fr. democratie, from M.L. democratia (13c.), from Gk. demokratia, from demos "common people," originally "district" (see demotic), + kratos "rule, strength" (see -cracy).

 

In the US, we instituted democracy through voting. No dispute.

 

But there is nothing in the original greek words about voting, which was my point.

 

How do you understand and explain Wen Jiabao's claim that China has democracy, then? He made the claim back in 2006-7.

 

Only in ancient Greece was democracy practiced. The Greek citizens voted on every legislative agenda. In America, we have a Republic; not a democracy! We elect representatives to vote for us on legislative issues and hope that they are not representing other interests.

 

On that note....

 

 

[Stepbrow]

When I first saw the title, "Democracy is not easy"... my first thought was:

 

Democracy is not necessary.

 

I think it depends mostly on the region, culture and history... but I don't see democracy as a foregone conclusion as the right (and only) way.

 

 

Well, the title holds true to its meaning. Even within a political system that is based on democracy, some do not believe it is necessary.

 

What are some other "right" ways of governance that have worked well in the past? Or could work better in the future?

 

In light of the Supreme Court decision giving corporations the right to give unlimited amounts of money to political campaigns, I think that we need to have a Constitutional Amendment regulating our elections.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Stepbrow (see edit history)

[Urkidding]

Democracy means....http://i47.tinypic.com/313hdtu.jpg http://i49.tinypic.com/157oz0z.gif

[knloregon]

BCCO ~ !

 

Great Picture ~! Apparently George McGovern has developed quite the political bite in his old age ~!

[knloregon]

AM: "...But there is nothing in the original greek words about voting, which was my point...."

 

Agree with Liuling: ".....Only in ancient Greece was democracy practiced. The Greek citizens voted on every legislative agenda. In America, we have a Republic; not a democracy! We elect representatives to vote for us on legislative issues and hope that they are not representing other interests...."

 

AM: ...How do you understand and explain Wen Jiabao's claim that China has democracy, then? He made the claim back in 2006-7..."

 

According to the Old Communist: slight exaggeration on Wen's part..

[Stepbrow]

AM: "...But there is nothing in the original greek words about voting, which was my point...."

 

Agree with Liuling: ".....Only in ancient Greece was democracy practiced. The Greek citizens voted on every legislative agenda. In America, we have a Republic; not a democracy! We elect representatives to vote for us on legislative issues and hope that they are not representing other interests...."

 

AM: ...How do you understand and explain Wen Jiabao's claim that China has democracy, then? He made the claim back in 2006-7..."

 

According to the Old Communist: slight exaggeration on Wen's part..

 

Actually China has been a democracy since at least 1982 with the adoption of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China. "Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship..." so there you have it.

 

Also the People's Republic of China has very broad civil rights for its citizens. These are listed in Section II. these include freedom of the press, speech, assembly,and religion. Of course in the real world things don't always go as the theory suggests.

 

Here is a link the the Constitution: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/constitu...nstitution.html

[A Mafan]

AM: "...But there is nothing in the original greek words about voting, which was my point...."

 

Agree with Liuling: ".....Only in ancient Greece was democracy practiced. The Greek citizens voted on every legislative agenda. In America, we have a Republic; not a democracy! We elect representatives to vote for us on legislative issues and hope that they are not representing other interests...."

 

AM: ...How do you understand and explain Wen Jiabao's claim that China has democracy, then? He made the claim back in 2006-7..."

 

According to the Old Communist: slight exaggeration on Wen's part..

 

Actually China has been a democracy since at least 1982 with the adoption of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China. "Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship..." so there you have it.

 

Also the People's Republic of China has very broad civil rights for its citizens. These are listed in Section II. these include freedom of the press, speech, assembly,and religion. Of course in the real world things don't always go as the theory suggests.

 

Here is a link the the Constitution: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/constitu...nstitution.html

That's the age-old problem of the difference between policy as written, and policy as enacted.

 

Bureaucracy has its uses, but in general, bureaucracy sucks.

[dnoblett]

Although, if I understand correctly, Thomas Jefferson was referring to direct, or "pure" democracy. Which IS probably one of the worst forms of government.

Correct, that is why the USA is a Representative Republic, not a Democracy.