Obama in China.

[Rachel + Will = Together Forever]

We are Americans we do not bow to anyone! Good foreign policy comes from strength. Not from a courtsey. What makes me so upset since the Cold War has ended is that we Americans have let our Great Nation nation slip into mediocritcy.

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

Good points, bcco. I can appreciate much of what you've said.

[A Mafan]

Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

 

Hey, we should make sure all the college students are female! That would help balance their gender ratio!

[b.c]

We are Americans we do not bow to anyone! Good foreign policy comes from strength. Not from a courtsey. What makes me so upset since the Cold War has ended is that we Americans have let our Great Nation nation slip into mediocritcy.

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

Mankind is a predator. A predator only respects stregnth.

 

Thats old school Tony. I would like to think us younger generations are a little more enlightened.

[A Mafan]

We are Americans we do not bow to anyone! Good foreign policy comes from strength. Not from a courtsey. What makes me so upset since the Cold War has ended is that we Americans have let our Great Nation nation slip into mediocritcy.

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

Mankind is a predator. A predator only respects stregnth.

 

Thats old school Tony. I would like to think us younger generations are a little more enlightened.

Maybe in the US.

 

Putin isn't.

Chavez isn't.

Iran seems to think/act like predators.

Both China and Japan bluff and bluster to intimidate nations into giving up most of their advantages, and THEN start negotiating halfway from there.

The leaders in Burma aren't all that impressed with niceness, either.

 

This is a lowest-common-denominator equation, alas.

 

And I'm still waiting for someone to give me a few good examples of anything the United States gained from having the world like us more. Because I'm trying to be as fair as I can, and I can't think of anything.

[weiaijiayou]

Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

This would be fantastic. At Chinese universities there are people from Korea, Japan, England, Indonesia, African countries... but there are hardly any Americans. Perhaps China could help out by lowering or subsidizing tuition, which is a lot higher for foreign students than for Chinese...

 

 

has to be a 2 way street

Very true, but our universities already have tons of Chinese, and for good reason: the quality of the education and value of the degrees are generally higher in the US.

Much of this I would think has to do with the percentage of chinese students who are fluent in english vs american students who are fluent in chinese.

That's an important imbalance that needs to be rectified, BUT... I'd imagine that most American students presently at Chinese universities are there studying Chinese -- this doesn't require Chinese fluency and is what the US and China should promote first. A second area to put some money into might be partnerships between American and Chinese universities to help develop MBA students...

[amberjack1234]

We are Americans we do not bow to anyone! Good foreign policy comes from strength. Not from a courtsey. What makes me so upset since the Cold War has ended is that we Americans have let our Great Nation nation slip into mediocritcy.

 

Imo, this is the type of better than thou attitude that has helped lead us into mediocrity. I think we have entered into a new era that calls for understanding, respect, and dialogue more so than force and strength. Yes, we should carry a big stick and be prepared to use it but there is also such a tool as diplomacy which I feel we have collectively gotten away from over the years.

 

Kudos to Obama for having the courage to do this, knowing that he would face a lot of criticism for such an action.

Mankind is a predator. A predator only respects stregnth.

 

Thats old school Tony. I would like to think us younger generations are a little more enlightened.

I was just reading this and it occurred to me that pretty much the same things said here could appropriately be applied to peoples attitude right here on CFL. There seems that some think that their way is the only way and that they are far more intelligent and thus more superior to others as human beings.

 

Oh by the way I was not just referring to this post I was thinking about a lot of the post that have been been made lately. It just occurred to me while I was reading this one.

 

Larry

Edited November 18, 2009 by amberjack1234 (see edit history)

[Guest Pommey]

We are all right, we are all wrong simple dialectics to find the synthesis .

Only problem is you have to be prepared for change.

[weiaijiayou]

And I'm still waiting for someone to give me a few good examples of anything the United States gained from having the world like us more. Because I'm trying to be as fair as I can, and I can't think of anything.

To be fair, we would also have to ask what the United States has gained from having the world not like us. Making people prove where Obama's foreign policy has done good for the US in the last year assumes that, e.g., Bush's years in the Oval Office would be rife with examples of how military aggression has benefited the US.

 

Many of diplomacy¡¯s benefits are either non-riveting (and not news worthy in the US) or involve avoiding something negative such as war, and are therefore hard to prove. In 2008, for example, how much play was given to the success of the Bush administration for helping resolve ¨C through diplomacy ¨C the armed conflicts in the Congo? Did it help the US? I don¡¯t know. We didn¡¯t get anything tangible from it like oil pipelines, but if the conflict had escalated ultimately it could have spilled over into American¡¯s lives either economically or through terrorism.

[knloregon]

"..China's education superiority might also have to do with schools being more concerned with education than teacher benefits, combined with intense parental concern/interest in education..."

 

Of course, the teaching is modeled from the very beginning by a written language that must be mostly rote learned, which requires a level of attention and diligence that probably translates to other subjects as well (math comes to mind)...

 

.... but your observations, AM, are consistent with our experience. And not just parental concern for learning and extreme deference and respect shown to teachers, but also the fairly universal expectations of behavior within the group. ie., individuals are not permitted to be disruptive to the whole (class). And community standards quickly enforce conformity when individuals step out of line.

 

Thats totally different than in the US in K-12 experience, where it seems its socially encouraged for parents to challenge teacher's authority, and most often it seems that challenge comes from the parents least academically prepared to have a worthwhile opinion.

 

For instance, the single parent, out until 2:00 am, who didn't bother to feed the child breakfast, and thinks that when he's disrupting class--- bouncing off the walls---that its just Jimmy showing his 'creativity'.

[A Mafan]

And I'm still waiting for someone to give me a few good examples of anything the United States gained from having the world like us more. Because I'm trying to be as fair as I can, and I can't think of anything.

To be fair, we would also have to ask what the United States has gained from having the world not like us. Making people prove where Obama's foreign policy has done good for the US in the last year assumes that, e.g., Bush's years in the Oval Office would be rife with examples of how military aggression has benefited the US.

 

Many of diplomacy¡¯s benefits are either non-riveting (and not news worthy in the US) or involve avoiding something negative such as war, and are therefore hard to prove. In 2008, for example, how much play was given to the success of the Bush administration for helping resolve ¨C through diplomacy ¨C the armed conflicts in the Congo? Did it help the US? I don¡¯t know. We didn¡¯t get anything tangible from it like oil pipelines, but if the conflict had escalated ultimately it could have spilled over into American¡¯s lives either economically or through terrorism.

Well, for one thing: China allowed uncensored broadcasts of Bush's comments in China, but not Obama's.

The number of nations that signed on to help in Afghanist and and Iraq are good examples of Bush getting cooperation despite people not like the US, too. NATO did not want to pony up troops in Afghanistan!

Russia actually agreed to help with sanctions against Iran when Bush pushed for it, and they actually followed through on those promises.

Bush got Syria to back off in Lebanon a little bit.

Bush got the EP-3 crew out fairly quickly...we're still waiting on Iran to release the hikers they took from Iraqi territory.

Bush got North Korea to agree to, and take several steps to fulfill, the 6-party talks.

Bush got Taiwan to tone down some of their more inflammatory rhetoric toward China, and got China to increase their transparency on their military budget.

I think it is also clear that the pro-democracy Color Revolutions we saw between 2003-2005 were the direct result of Bush foreign policy giving them courage to stand up to dictators.

 

Now, we are looking at 8 years of Bush successes vs 1 year of Obama, so naturally there is going to be a disparity in numbers. I'm not trying to argue Bush has done 8 times as much as Obama, because that would be dishonest and unfair.

 

It's just that since President Obama has taken over, all sorts of rivals are getting more boisterous. I haven't seen any trade concessions from Germany, France, UK, etc. I see France calling the US too weak and indecisive. I see Russia getting concessions out of us in exchange for promises they blatantly refuse to follow through on. I see Iran doing whatever they want. I see Venezuala threatening Columbia due to its relationship with the US, and the US not doing anything. I see North Korea being more combative than it has been in the last 20 years.

 

It might be that the State Dept is inept, not the Office of the POTUS.

 

I do think that after nearly a year in office, there should be some diplomatic successes. I've seen zero.

Edited November 19, 2009 by A Mafan (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

This thread has veered off topic too far. I don't see it going in a positive direction. Now we have the right criticizing Obama and the left Bush. It always leads to nasty fighting and the thread being deleted. The topic is Obama's visit to China. Try to discuss it without a right or left wing agenda. We didn't allow Bush bashing when he was president. We aren't allowing Obama bashing either.

[knloregon]

AM not really wanting to get into this, since its on the edge of the topic, but do you really think there has been any progress in the last 4 administrations in dealing with North Korea?

 

"...I see North Korea being more combative than it has been in the last 20 years..."

 

I've never seen them less combative (on paper) in last 20 years... is this really a good example? They always push to the brink, to get attention, (and win concessions) and then back off. If anything, maybe this could be a diplomatic success for Obama, as long as he resists one-on-one talks, and insists on the resumption of 6 party talks.. But even then, I don't really see the possibility of change until the old man dies..

[A Mafan]

AM not really wanting to get into this, since its on the edge of the topic, but do you really think there has been any progress in the last 4 administrations in dealing with North Korea?

 

"...I see North Korea being more combative than it has been in the last 20 years..."

 

I've never seen them less combative (on paper) in last 20 years... is this really a good example? They always push to the brink, to get attention, (and win concessions) and then back off. If anything, maybe this could be a diplomatic success for Obama, as long as he resists one-on-one talks, and insists on the resumption of 6 party talks.. But even then, I don't really see the possibility of change until the old man dies..

We can move it to PMs.

[Wendy W]

As the leader of the only super power in the world he should be bowing to no one.

 

This is the second time he has done this.

 

I didn't read all the post but I do think Obama is very well manner to bow to the elder in Japan. The powerful one doesn't have to raised their head high. Remember when you are in economic crisis you have to turn to the developing country to ask for help.

[A Mafan]

This thread has veered off topic too far. I don't see it going in a positive direction. Now we have the right criticizing Obama and the left Bush. It always leads to nasty fighting and the thread being deleted. The topic is Obama's visit to China. Try to discuss it without a right or left wing agenda. We didn't allow Bush bashing when he was president. We aren't allowing Obama bashing either.

FWIW, I didn't take his questions about Bush's accomplishments to be bashing. I wasn't bothered by it because no one can remember anything, and questions are an attempt to acquire knowledge, or assistance in acquiring knowledge.

 

I also didn't intend my questions about President Obama's accomplishments to be seen as bashing, either. I'm not insisting he has no accomplishments, I am not insisting anything has been screwed up. I guess I didn't make that clear enough.

 

I am hoping someone can remind me of some diplomatic breakthrough or international gain since President Obama took office. I completely accept that I have either forgot or didn't notice one.

 

Anyone can feel free to PM me with answers.