Daily life for most Chinese people

[NewDay2006]

Don't know what the arguments are about, but, I was poor over 30,35 years ago and probably not as poor as I'm stating, but that picture really looked sad and it was probably only a year or so ago. Are there poorer people? Yes, I'm sure there are, what difference does it make? My thought would be to feel Blessed that we are in love and are able to live together with our wives.

[knloregon]

Sorry,

 

I'm back.

 

And to fill in those of you in who didn't know-----(and thanks for the support for those of you who did, or guessed it) --- I was censored (briefly) by the Mods for, yes, inappropriate remarks, but remarks which came after substantial baiting directed at a father, who is trying the best he can, to raise two Chinese orphans (and guess what? Its both a protective role, and emotional as well) while the 'experts' question not only my motives-----but those of my family in China-----AND MODS, THAT IS A MATTER OF RECORD HERE-----so, if you want to delete that part (as you did my posts on adoption in China) ---- you better get started....

 

As I have stated over several years I do hold the Expat experience as very important to the Candle, but what I have discovered is that one Expat can spoil the whole barrel ----- and to the detriment of the all the others, to who I would just say: Please, don't leave ! Hang in there, the Mods EVENTUALLY have to see the light ~ But in the meantime---great posts on this thread ~!!!

[A Mafan]

¡°Some people live their whole lives in it.

 

Interestingly, it doesn't seem to be as unsanitary as we westerners seem to think. At least, no one seems to die from it, or even get sick from it very often.¡±

 

I do disagree. People living in squalor may not know their condition because they have not lived elsewhere. But they do die from it. I was also a rural paramedic for the military in Laos and Cambodia. I was the so-called village doctor for several tribes there. They do die of some of the most terrible diseases. Worms and parasites ate their insides. Infections, including tuberculosis, are a main problem, especially of the mouth, ears and legs. Try walking in the jungle without any protection for a while. If they cannot get medical care under these conditions, they die slow horrible deaths.

 

 

FWIW....

Good point. I wrote badly, in that my attempt to write in a somewhat literary style obscured my intent.

 

What I mean is that modern sanitation is, well, modern.

It is a luxury.

 

If people died from bad hygiene as easily as modern people think, humans would never have survived long enough to develop language, much less the civilization that eventually resulted in modern sanitation.

 

But yeah, people do get sick from lack of sanitation, and people die from it. I just don't think it is as easily as we think...or at least as easily as I used to think.

 

When you investigate some of the more horrific stories of people held hostage, forced to live in their own filth with no option for bathing/cleaning for more than a year, no sunlight, eating rotten/infested bread...far worse, actually, than some of the most poor people who at least can move around, be in sunlight, find fresh fruit, etc, etc, it seems amazing these hostages even survive...they have all sorts of malnutrition-based diseases, but they survive.

 

When I mention inner-city stories of poverty worse than that of China, I'm speaking of people living in places where the cockroaches are so numerous, they eat the eyelashes of the children while they are sleeping.

 

But people survive. People strive for a better life. People's ability to adapt to hardships/difficulties is amazing.

 

I don't think we should ignore the plight of those less fortunate than our own. But I think aid should be a personal issue, and should not be used to aggrandize oneself, or to try to make others feel bad for what they have, or for how much they choose to give or not give.

 

I believe in the inherent dignity of everyone making their own choices in life, and in making reasonable efforts to help others maximize their choices in life, and in helping people understand which choices lead to a more fulfilling, more abundant life. I don't believe in taking away someone's responsibility for their own life and making that responsibility mine.

 

All my writings in this thread may be considered tangential to the main point of the thread...if I could figure out exactly what the main point of the thread is.

[whome?]

If you are really interested google the author and read some of his earlier work regarding his thoughts on China and the USA (the government in particular) and the ROW. Then you will see that, perhaps, some of this long rant is related to his bitter feelings for whatever happened between him and his employer....

 

I finally had time to read this article... I think you totally nailed the author's motivations and baggage. I feel a little sorry for this guy. When he didn¡¯t get the special recognition he thought he deserved at the university, he set off to find the ¡°real¡± China. Through black-and-white reasoning he deluded himself into thinking that, if the well-off people were jerks, then the poor people must be loving natives who want nothing more than to open their homes and hearts to this "laowai yeye" and listen, enthralled, to his humble descriptions of all his amazing travels and academic accomplishments. The way he talks about poor people in China reminds me of Margaret Mead and her portrayal of Samoans, which was also based on the experience of an outsider (in both cases, one who probably made the people feel like they were being scrutinized by an alien) who couldn¡¯t understand most of what was going on.

 

Overall the main point of this article seems to be that the author is such a cool guy -- he sees himself as "going where no laowai has gone before¡± (and from what I can tell this was his other motivation for going there: bragging rights). It is annoying to read his claims that he ¡°lived there¡± or that he really experienced the poverty that surrounded him (e.g., he says something like ¡°I¡¯m poorer than my students!¡±).

 

For this guy the poor people in Henan are a caricature. They¡¯re the selfless and accepting natives he needs to create in his mind to contrast with the privileged and stand-offish well-to-do who ¡°forced him out¡± of China. I feel bad for him if this is the way he needs to understand the complexities of China¡­

I never said that I was in love with the author or agreed with his philosophy on life in China or anywhere else for that matter of fact but what I got out of it was how the people lived and where they and the conditions that they lived in. But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right. My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right?

 

Larry

 

But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right.

 

No no one denies that there are not a lot of poor people in China. But what is the point. You do not think in the last 30 years there have been no improvement for the quality of life in China? Do you think if the Chinese government became a USA democracy the poor people would go ahead overnite? There are almost 40 million people in the USA who are living below the poverty line (13.2% in 2008).

 

My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right?

 

This is the standard party line when someone has even a slightly different viewpoint of China. Some look at the glass half-full. Others look at it half-empty.

 

I am not an english teacher but I do work in China. Can you explain your reasoning as to why people who donot 100% agree with your viewpoint on China must be english teachers?

[knloregon]

No one, that I'm aware of here has suggested that there is no poverty in China.... Or in fact, that there isn't a lot of poverty in China.

 

----so its a classic strawman to hold that up as an issue. Every member here has seen it, some more than others, but there is no point in trying to measure who has seen more.

 

And special attention to the Mods: The MO employed which ----- in any argument, straight out of the gate: And Whome's illustration is classic----attempts to marginalize the poster---in this case, aspersions about his profession (inaccurate, btw, similar, if not the same as Bill) ---should not be allowed. Not only is it one-up-manship at its worst, but it does nothing to further civil discourse, and focus the issue.

 

This particular forum could have been alot better than it is, and that its informative anyway, is because all---not just a few---not just two---- have had a reasonable level of experience in China. And the vast majority of Candle members have visited China, and should not be panned, discounted, or insulted right out of the gate--- ("moron, idiot") for offering their experiences and opinions.

 

Another concern for the Mods: Totally unprovoked attacks of another poster's family members who have, in essence, NOTHING to do with the discussion.

 

I'm also trying to figure out a scenario where a family member being brought into the topic gratuitously by others is ever appropriate. If the poster isn't bringing up his or her family, I can't really see why others might have a valid need to.

 

Specifically on the topic: I agree, poverty equals an early death in the modern world. Can't argue with the mortality stats gathered by any of a number of impartial international organizations. China is no exception. The number one killer is dirty water, and the water borne diseases which go with it. China is no exception here either, but what's worse, is the added factor of unchecked industrial pollution, adding toxins into what otherwise, would be water relatively easy to treat for drinking and bathing. I'd be surprised if anyone here disagrees...

[david_dawei]

Sorry,

 

I'm back.

 

And to fill in those of you in who didn't know-----(and thanks for the support for those of you who did, or guessed it) --- I was censored (briefly) by the Mods

You were not the only one censored briefly... but evidently your the only need who feels a need to announce it... and continue to stir the pot with a second post.

 

If you have a mod issue, take it up with the mods, not in threads.

[whome?]

In a total of 8 months in china, I've hardly stayed at a place with running hot water; I had memories of shaving with cold water just as we did during boot camp drills. At least I had a mirror. One place had no kitchen; another I wish didn't have one; A kitchen with no frig; everything is left out. Better eat it tomorrow or it eats you. Where else can I be forced to go get fresh food everyday. Gotta savor it.

 

Hallways so full of smoke from cooking pots that you hold your breath through six flights; all the broken windows don't help the hallway except to chill you during winter on each flight. Often one had to walk in the dark in the hall as there is no light at night. And don't dare touch the railings are they haven't been cleaned since the republic was established.

 

Spit on the streets, toss your trash anywhere you want; kids pissing on the sidewalk which you have to walk around. Restaurants with floors so dirty you figure it's easier to just to toss your trash as well on it to get into the true groove of things. At night, when drunk, the entire city is a bathroom for your own use. At least I heard that rumor... I wouldn't know. Gotta savor it.

 

Public bathrooms? I've never seen a bath in one yet but most need a bath 3x overs; even those in the mall. Sometimes no stalls. Squat next to a guy who is close enough to shake my hand. And he'll likely offer me a cigarette if I look his way. Yep, I know where his hand has been so might as well take it and the light, then take in a long drag...where else in the world would this happen to me. Gotta savor it now. The worst in the world were in Yunnan (sorry to say Jin); so foul you could smell them two blocks away. The locals just piss on the sides of the street instead. I had to venture into one... just to confirm it's repulsiveness is all the smell made it out to be... yep... not cleaned since the republic since I could tell. The street seemed more hospitable to use. Somehow I got back on bathrooms, or lack thereof... gotta savor it.

 

Some houses didn't have a bathroom; there's an outhouse to go to. One had pigs running underneath to take care of the waste. One pool hall said they had a 'mens only' bathroom. I found out why; it's a bucket with a handle tethering on a water line. I saw some courageous girls go in just to show they can hold up half the world. I'm thinking it's the heavier half. Another pool hall had a 'bathroom' in the hallway; where a water fountain used to be, was now a hole... it was routinely honored with some 'water'. I always liked the bathrooms in the restaurants where there is only one bathroom; unisex stalls. When you ask your neighbor if 'she' has any tissue you realize it's definitely the heavier half. I guess a book could be written about the bathroom experiences... but I just feel like I gotta savor it.

 

All in all, I wouldn't trade it for any other experience. Why would I? Why would I complain? I guess if I were expecting china to be more red carpet or cater to my needs, attitude, and expectations. But I never did and never will. gotta savor it...

In 8 months in China you only saw a third world country? Nanjing was like this?

Go about 25 miles north of Lake Charles LA to a few pool halls, bars, and communities on the river/swamp area there --- it would make you savor the experience also.

[david_dawei]

In 8 months in China you only saw a third world country? Nanjing was like this?

Go about 25 miles north of Lake Charles LA to a few pool halls, bars, and communities on the river/swamp area there --- it would make you savor the experience also.

Not while in Nanjing. that a 10+ day stop over to see some old friends which was quite a bit cleaner. Sorry to not hook up with you.

 

I spoke mostly of Hebei (southwest of BJ) also in the small back villages in Yunnan between Dali and Lijiang. The parts of Shenyang/Fushun I have visited were clearly closer to the dirty Hebei, while Guangzhou/Shenzhen were not. A friend from Fushun said that they always thought Fushun was a small and dirty city until they went with me on a trip to Hebei area I described... Fushun suddenly seemed to rate higher in their estimation

[whome?]

In 8 months in China you only saw a third world country? Nanjing was like this?

Go about 25 miles north of Lake Charles LA to a few pool halls, bars, and communities on the river/swamp area there --- it would make you savor the experience also.

Not while in Nanjing. that a 10+ day stop over to see some old friends which was quite a bit cleaner. Sorry to not hook up with you.

 

I spoke mostly of Hebei (southwest of BJ) also in the small back villages in Yunnan between Dali and Lijiang. The parts of Shenyang/Fushun I have visited were clearly closer to the dirty Hebei, while Guangzhou/Shenzhen were not. A friend from Fushun said that they always thought Fushun was a small and dirty city until they went with me on a trip to Hebei area I described... Fushun suddenly seemed to rate higher in their estimation

Ok now I can understand. You can see the same in small back villages outside of 3rd tier cities in Hubei. My future sister-in-law's parents live in one of these villages. We got to spend two days there last Chinese New Year. We did not hot water from the newly installed solar heater....

[david_dawei]

In 8 months in China you only saw a third world country? Nanjing was like this?

Go about 25 miles north of Lake Charles LA to a few pool halls, bars, and communities on the river/swamp area there --- it would make you savor the experience also.

Not while in Nanjing. that a 10+ day stop over to see some old friends which was quite a bit cleaner. Sorry to not hook up with you.

 

I spoke mostly of Hebei (southwest of BJ) also in the small back villages in Yunnan between Dali and Lijiang. The parts of Shenyang/Fushun I have visited were clearly closer to the dirty Hebei, while Guangzhou/Shenzhen were not. A friend from Fushun said that they always thought Fushun was a small and dirty city until they went with me on a trip to Hebei area I described... Fushun suddenly seemed to rate higher in their estimation

Ok now I can understand. You can see the same in small back villages outside of 3rd tier cities in Hubei. My future sister-in-law's parents live in one of these villages. We got to spend two days there last Chinese New Year. We did not hot water from the newly installed solar heater....

maybe my post was a bit apathetic... but that's the way I am in china.... I have no problem being in the midst of dirty, poor, pushing, spitting, shit-sharing-a-cigarette situations. i'm not going to china expecting it to be like my relative comfort ethic of the US. I want to meet the people and be among them, whatever the setting.

 

I've made friends with police, government officials, hookers, and mafia. School kids from 10-20 years old and teachers. I've meet people who will lie through their teeth (what few they have) and those who will give you the shirt off their back. I've shared drinks with guys who look like they where given a jacket already 50 years old and their hands shake as they talk... this old looking drunkard was so moved by my attention to him that he showed me something of his youth he must of suddenly recalled; some Qigong and brick breaking. He just walked along the street, found a brick and then showed me. I savor all these experiences. There is so much to write about rather than bitch about is my feeling.

[knloregon]

"......You were not the only one censored briefly... but evidently your the only need who feels a need to announce it.." News to me David, so thanks for sharing that info----I obviously couldn't have received it if I didn't post it...

 

".....also in the small back villages in Yunnan between Dali and Lijiang...."

 

I know that area a little... which ones? Lots of tourists doing the Shangri-La tour take side trips to the area...

[david_dawei]

"......You were not the only one censored briefly... but evidently your the only need who feels a need to announce it.." News to me David, so thanks for sharing that info----I obviously couldn't have received it if I didn't post it...

Valid point... enough said.

 

".....also in the small back villages in Yunnan between Dali and Lijiang...."

 

I know that area a little... which ones? Lots of tourists doing the Shangri-La tour take side trips to the area...

that was 5 years ago... at this point, the most disguising and most scenic memories stay. The trip started in Kunming to Dali to Lijiang... alot of ground to cover by bus and train and back... but seeing the majority groups were a highlight; and the boat ride to an island. So, more than just toilets are recalled to mind

Edited October 28, 2009 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[knloregon]

Well, David,

 

Its an area I love... Dali----particularly.... a University town on a stunning lake...... With an old city, and remnants of a great city wall... Super clean air, and friendly people.... the minorities do seem to affect even the Han, and make them more outgoing, or maybe its just such a great environment---that everyone's happy... I've mentioned more than once that Dali is a city I could live in to the other half..... maybe too far west...

[GDBILL]

He is talking of spending time in 2006 in a poverty section of an older poor Chinese city. You can do the same thing all over the USA.

 

This does not imply that "most" Chinese live in this condition nor that the government does not give a damn.

 

If you are really interested google the author and read some of his earlier work regarding his thoughts on China and the USA (the government in particular) and the ROW. Then you will see that, perhaps, some of this long rant is related to his bitter feelings for whatever happened between him and his employer....

 

 

It's much more than feeble to compare poverty that exists in the US with that you can find in China.

 

And it does appear that the government isn't overly concerned about the issues until it threatens the Party's monopoly on power. That said, nobody really knows for sure exactly what actual concern the government does have unless you are privy to the inner workings of the State Council -- and anybody here who thinks they are is delusional.

[GDBILL]

If you are really interested google the author and read some of his earlier work regarding his thoughts on China and the USA (the government in particular) and the ROW. Then you will see that, perhaps, some of this long rant is related to his bitter feelings for whatever happened between him and his employer....

 

I finally had time to read this article... I think you totally nailed the author's motivations and baggage. I feel a little sorry for this guy. When he didn¡¯t get the special recognition he thought he deserved at the university, he set off to find the ¡°real¡± China. Through black-and-white reasoning he deluded himself into thinking that, if the well-off people were jerks, then the poor people must be loving natives who want nothing more than to open their homes and hearts to this "laowai yeye" and listen, enthralled, to his humble descriptions of all his amazing travels and academic accomplishments. The way he talks about poor people in China reminds me of Margaret Mead and her portrayal of Samoans, which was also based on the experience of an outsider (in both cases, one who probably made the people feel like they were being scrutinized by an alien) who couldn¡¯t understand most of what was going on.

 

Overall the main point of this article seems to be that the author is such a cool guy -- he sees himself as "going where no laowai has gone before¡± (and from what I can tell this was his other motivation for going there: bragging rights). It is annoying to read his claims that he ¡°lived there¡± or that he really experienced the poverty that surrounded him (e.g., he says something like ¡°I¡¯m poorer than my students!¡±).

 

For this guy the poor people in Henan are a caricature. They¡¯re the selfless and accepting natives he needs to create in his mind to contrast with the privileged and stand-offish well-to-do who ¡°forced him out¡± of China. I feel bad for him if this is the way he needs to understand the complexities of China¡­

I never said that I was in love with the author or agreed with his philosophy on life in China or anywhere else for that matter of fact but what I got out of it was how the people lived and where they and the conditions that they lived in. But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right. My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right?

 

Larry

 

But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right.

 

No no one denies that there are not a lot of poor people in China. But what is the point. You do not think in the last 30 years there have been no improvement for the quality of life in China? Do you think if the Chinese government became a USA democracy the poor people would go ahead overnite? There are almost 40 million people in the USA who are living below the poverty line (13.2% in 2008).

 

My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right?

 

This is the standard party line when someone has even a slightly different viewpoint of China. Some look at the glass half-full. Others look at it half-empty.

 

I am not an english teacher but I do work in China. Can you explain your reasoning as to why people who donot 100% agree with your viewpoint on China must be english teachers?

 

Your grasp on poverty statistics is weak.

 

While approximately 13% of the US population lives in poverty, poverty in the US is defined as a family of three having an income lower that $18,310 per year. By that standard, probably 90% of China lives in poverty.

 

A common international standard used to define poverty is roughly $1.20 a day. In the US, UN figures put the US at about 2% and China at anywhere from 6 - 20% -- with the higher percentage being likely more accurate.

 

Again, your comparison of poverty in the US with that in China is feeble. Very feeble.