Starting a pizzeria

[george lee]

asians are lactose, no?

[weiaijiayou]

I'd love to keep it on the legal side but from the looks of it (went down there today) all the street food (that's pretty much what it is here in Tianjin) stands and even permanent building structures connected to larger buildings don't run with licenses.

 

What we were told today by such a property owner is that the police will give notice (not sure how advanced) that they will be coming, when that happens they make everyone close their stalls, stands and shops for roughly 2-3 days and then its back to business as usual, mind you these stands and restaurants have been around for years operating like this and the business will be in her name only.

 

As for start up costs and remodeling that will cost a bit and we're crunching the numbers now, looks like a year from now to start, year and 3-4 months until opening.

 

You are really ... er ... well, naive.

 

You expect that authorities turning a blind eye works when an expat is involved? Sooner or later you'll have immigration and a whole platoon of police there and you will get FITA. If you're really lucky, they'll just fine the hellout of you, confiscate your business and not deport you.

 

That's the kind of response I was looking for Bill, not intended for me exactly.

 

I've been planning this for a bit with her, wanting to do it in her home town where her father has the right connections in government to make those hoops easy to fit through, but she wants to try it here in Tianjin.

I don't think GZBill was saying not to do it in Tianjin -- he was just saying to do it legally.

 

It seems to me that the bigger the city the more likely a pizza shop will be successful in China (so depending on where your fiancee's hometown is, you'll need to take into account the market there).

 

I feel like you're someone who perhaps gets extremely excited about something and wants to jump in head-first. Was a pizza shop the first idea you had for a small business in China? I believe there would be a market for it on or near most large university campuses, but you could probably also think of about a dozen other types of businesses that could be highly profitable and that would require less capital and, once up and running, would be funner and less labor-intensive than a pizza shop. If you sit down and think hard now you might come up with a less obvious idea that you'll be even more excited about. A pizza shop where there's a market for pizza can be difficult because there are generally already pizza shops there.

[carl.hops]

We were looking at ovens last night on taobao, with a convection oven and pizza stone you need to hit 500F or 260C and most of these get up to 250 so we will probably be buying one of the more expensive ovens that get up there. There is a large expat community next to my work, one store is devoted to ovens.

 

I've been looking into how to build a brick oven, the idea is to make it like the Mongolian grill (not sure if that's just a northwest thing) where everyone can see the brick oven behind some glass or back in the kitchen.

 

I've talked to a lot of my Chinese friends and some like pepparoni and salami, some don't. My girl does, sea food is definitely going to be on the menu (shrimp).

Were planning on making the pizza price low so that college kids can afford it, but the whole logistical side of importing food is foreign to me, I may have to go down to HK every once in a while and buy it there.

 

Right now there are no pizza places selling by the slice, this is what is going to give us our edge. We will of course make fresh pizza's and have a place inside to sit but people can come in and pick from pre-made pizzas as well. As for the taste your right, Papa Johns and Pizza Hut are easy to beat. We had some real pizza at a new Italian place in town and then Papa Johns right after, PJ didn't even have tomato sauce. We will perfect our menu before we spend a dime on the restaurant. (I have a plan for this one that wont cost us anything but time and a bit of organizing of an English corner in our apartment with dinner).

 

You can find Peking duck on a pizza here at one of the most popular hang outs for expats called Alibaba's. I'll make sure to borrow that idea as well, as for the normal sized pizza's I think I could do that with a proper brick oven otherwise I think it would be a bit too much cheese for most Chinese to eat (the thickness of the crust varies).

 

Where are you going to buy a pizza oven? I would bet they don't have them in China. You would have to import a lot of your ingredients, and Chinese people don't like pepperoni.

There's a great place in SheZhen called NYPD pizza. I believe I mentioned them before. Normal sized pizzas. Better than Papa Johns and Pizza Hut (that's not hard I know). Pizza's were generally 20 RMB less than the big chains. I talked the Chinese American running it and he told me he brings a lot of the ingredients over from the US. Unfortunately, it was a little far from us in ShenZhen, and we went over there rarely. It was basically a storefront and couple of seats and tables outside.

 

What I think would be better for you would be like the pizza place i saw in YangShuo. Pizzas were smaller and less expensive and individual sized but very good. Pizza was cooked in a traditional brick oven. Didn't taste corporate at all. More like home-made, but not on the level of an indie-pizza parlor in the US. Probably 6 booths inside, but very Italian looking. There was a similar set-up in FengHuang but with more eclectic decorations and couches and wifi that didn't work on my Mac.

 

I understand your desire to do this. I had fantasies about opening a hamburger place in ShenZhen with a fresh toppings bar like Fuddruckers. Or even a Buffalo wing place. Now that we are in the US I fantasize about opening a hot pot restaurant or Guilin noodle establishment.

Where are you going to buy a pizza oven? I would bet they don't have them in China. You would have to import a lot of your ingredients, and Chinese people don't like pepperoni.

 

Don't know about that one. I'll try to get a hold of my friend mentioned above to gain insight on all of this, and get back to you. I do know that she does buy most of her ingredients from the nearby Metro supermarket. Robert S, may be right though about the cheese. I'll ask around and get back to you. My wife likes pepperoni pizza

 

 

Buy a Peking duck restaurant - I'll bet that'll be a good combination

 

Chinese cheeses

 

[carl.hops]

asians are lactose, no?

 

Not sure if they have a common genetic thing, but I highly doubt this! Milk is everywhere.

[Guest Pommey]

all we say is do have contacts and relationships with the right people ?

[Jaseball]

Opening a pizza restaurant in China is about as risky as opening a steakhouse in an Indian religious mecca.

[Randy W]

Opening a pizza restaurant in China is about as risky as opening a steakhouse in an Indian religious mecca.

 

 

Outback Steakhouse Expanding to India

[GZBILL]

I think it would be beneficial to interview some students and ask them "If there were a pizza restaurant here what are some things you would like to see in it and also ask them all together do you think it is a needed thing to have here...." Just a thought hope it was helpful just speaking from seeing 1 failure and one near and maybe soon failure on this type of place

 

This is great advice. Anything that can help refine and strengthen your marketing plan is a plus. One note:

 

I'm assuming you're going to teach people how to make pizzas. One thing about Chinese chefs is that they can be highly inconsistent. I have a good friend who opened up an Italian restaurant. She said that she's always having problems with the help being a bit too creative - adding their own take to the recipe. Apparently, this is fairly common in China. From what she tells me, a chef must create something spectacular, something which will set them apart from other chefs.

 

The only problem with this is that when creating "foreign" food, there is an expectation (from foreigners) for there to be some consistency (one meal to the next) on how, let's say a pizza, is made.

 

My friend, who is a Chinese citizen, finally had to hire a guy from Italy to come in and re - retrain them on how she wants it done.

 

Great, yes. But some would also call it common sense. In fact, iirc, you need some type of feasibility study done for the licensing process for most things like this in China. But maybe a store/restaurant is different than what I was looking at (factory). Maybe Bill can chime in on this.

 

My wife likes pepperoni. And I would imagine you could get oven and most ingredients in China but maybe ingredients from US would make for a better pizza, i dont know. But I like pizza hut pizza in China better than US. And typical US ingredients might not be best in China. Seafood seems to be very popular for pizza in China.

 

Agree totally about Pizza Hut being, for the most part, better in China than back home. Only problem is that 80% of their menu is seafood and they don't like putting tomato sauce on their pizzas. Once you navigate around that, though, it's pretty good.

 

Not sure about pepperoni. Pizza Hut used to have a pepperoni pizza, but has since taken it off the menu. Perhaps it wasn't very popular?

 

Someone has mentioned Chinese people generally being lactose intolerant. This is generally in the south, but even so people eat pizza. Not sure why.

 

I think it will be crucial to see what the market is in your area before opening up a pizza restaurant. If there's a Pizza Hut in the area, be careful. Pizza Hut has been very careful to keep prices low and offer what Chinese refer to as "set meals" that are cheap. Also, especially in Tianjin, there is a huge difference between what people tell you they'd buy and what they actually fork over cash for. Tianjin is not noted for having a lot of rich students and the vast majority of them would probably never even think about spending more than 10 RMB for a meal.

 

No matter what government connections one thinks they have, a non-Chinese passport holder having anything to do with a business that is not 100% legitimate is a serious risk. I've seen it hundreds of times -- it's not a pretty picture. The days when you can hold off immigration and tax authorities with a well-placed phone call have passed into myth in Tianjin.

[GZBILL]

Opening a pizza restaurant in China is about as risky as opening a steakhouse in an Indian religious mecca.

 

 

Outback Steakhouse Expanding to India

 

Guess Outback is trying to diversify the places in which it is going bankrupt.

[Guest Pommey]

I think it would be beneficial to interview some students and ask them "If there were a pizza restaurant here what are some things you would like to see in it and also ask them all together do you think it is a needed thing to have here...." Just a thought hope it was helpful just speaking from seeing 1 failure and one near and maybe soon failure on this type of place

 

This is great advice. Anything that can help refine and strengthen your marketing plan is a plus. One note:

 

I'm assuming you're going to teach people how to make pizzas. One thing about Chinese chefs is that they can be highly inconsistent. I have a good friend who opened up an Italian restaurant. She said that she's always having problems with the help being a bit too creative - adding their own take to the recipe. Apparently, this is fairly common in China. From what she tells me, a chef must create something spectacular, something which will set them apart from other chefs.

 

The only problem with this is that when creating "foreign" food, there is an expectation (from foreigners) for there to be some consistency (one meal to the next) on how, let's say a pizza, is made.

 

My friend, who is a Chinese citizen, finally had to hire a guy from Italy to come in and re - retrain them on how she wants it done.

 

Great, yes. But some would also call it common sense. In fact, iirc, you need some type of feasibility study done for the licensing process for most things like this in China. But maybe a store/restaurant is different than what I was looking at (factory). Maybe Bill can chime in on this.

 

My wife likes pepperoni. And I would imagine you could get oven and most ingredients in China but maybe ingredients from US would make for a better pizza, i dont know. But I like pizza hut pizza in China better than US. And typical US ingredients might not be best in China. Seafood seems to be very popular for pizza in China.

 

Agree totally about Pizza Hut being, for the most part, better in China than back home. Only problem is that 80% of their menu is seafood and they don't like putting tomato sauce on their pizzas. Once you navigate around that, though, it's pretty good.

 

Not sure about pepperoni. Pizza Hut used to have a pepperoni pizza, but has since taken it off the menu. Perhaps it wasn't very popular?

 

Someone has mentioned Chinese people generally being lactose intolerant. This is generally in the south, but even so people eat pizza. Not sure why.

 

I think it will be crucial to see what the market is in your area before opening up a pizza restaurant. If there's a Pizza Hut in the area, be careful. Pizza Hut has been very careful to keep prices low and offer what Chinese refer to as "set meals" that are cheap. Also, especially in Tianjin, there is a huge difference between what people tell you they'd buy and what they actually fork over cash for. Tianjin is not noted for having a lot of rich students and the vast majority of them would probably never even think about spending more than 10 RMB for a meal.

 

No matter what government connections one thinks they have, a non-Chinese passport holder having anything to do with a business that is not 100% legitimate is a serious risk. I've seen it hundreds of times -- it's not a pretty picture. The days when you can hold off immigration and tax authorities with a well-placed phone call have passed into myth in Tianjin.

[Guest Pommey]

I think it would be beneficial to interview some students and ask them "If there were a pizza restaurant here what are some things you would like to see in it and also ask them all together do you think it is a needed thing to have here...." Just a thought hope it was helpful just speaking from seeing 1 failure and one near and maybe soon failure on this type of place

 

This is great advice. Anything that can help refine and strengthen your marketing plan is a plus. One note:

 

I'm assuming you're going to teach people how to make pizzas. One thing about Chinese chefs is that they can be highly inconsistent. I have a good friend who opened up an Italian restaurant. She said that she's always having problems with the help being a bit too creative - adding their own take to the recipe. Apparently, this is fairly common in China. From what she tells me, a chef must create something spectacular, something which will set them apart from other chefs.

 

The only problem with this is that when creating "foreign" food, there is an expectation (from foreigners) for there to be some consistency (one meal to the next) on how, let's say a pizza, is made.

 

My friend, who is a Chinese citizen, finally had to hire a guy from Italy to come in and re - retrain them on how she wants it done.

 

Great, yes. But some would also call it common sense. In fact, iirc, you need some type of feasibility study done for the licensing process for most things like this in China. But maybe a store/restaurant is different than what I was looking at (factory). Maybe Bill can chime in on this.

 

My wife likes pepperoni. And I would imagine you could get oven and most ingredients in China but maybe ingredients from US would make for a better pizza, i dont know. But I like pizza hut pizza in China better than US. And typical US ingredients might not be best in China. Seafood seems to be very popular for pizza in China.

 

Agree totally about Pizza Hut being, for the most part, better in China than back home. Only problem is that 80% of their menu is seafood and they don't like putting tomato sauce on their pizzas. Once you navigate around that, though, it's pretty good.

 

Not sure about pepperoni. Pizza Hut used to have a pepperoni pizza, but has since taken it off the menu. Perhaps it wasn't very popular?

 

Someone has mentioned Chinese people generally being lactose intolerant. This is generally in the south, but even so people eat pizza. Not sure why.

 

I think it will be crucial to see what the market is in your area before opening up a pizza restaurant. If there's a Pizza Hut in the area, be careful. Pizza Hut has been very careful to keep prices low and offer what Chinese refer to as "set meals" that are cheap. Also, especially in Tianjin, there is a huge difference between what people tell you they'd buy and what they actually fork over cash for. Tianjin is not noted for having a lot of rich students and the vast majority of them would probably never even think about spending more than 10 RMB for a meal.

 

No matter what government connections one thinks they have, a non-Chinese passport holder having anything to do with a business that is not 100% legitimate is a serious risk. I've seen it hundreds of times -- it's not a pretty picture. The days when you can hold off immigration and tax authorities with a well-placed phone call have passed into myth in Tianjin.

[Guest Pommey]

I think it would be beneficial to interview some students and ask them "If there were a pizza restaurant here what are some things you would like to see in it and also ask them all together do you think it is a needed thing to have here...." Just a thought hope it was helpful just speaking from seeing 1 failure and one near and maybe soon failure on this type of place

 

This is great advice. Anything that can help refine and strengthen your marketing plan is a plus. One note:

 

I'm assuming you're going to teach people how to make pizzas. One thing about Chinese chefs is that they can be highly inconsistent. I have a good friend who opened up an Italian restaurant. She said that she's always having problems with the help being a bit too creative - adding their own take to the recipe. Apparently, this is fairly common in China. From what she tells me, a chef must create something spectacular, something which will set them apart from other chefs.

 

The only problem with this is that when creating "foreign" food, there is an expectation (from foreigners) for there to be some consistency (one meal to the next) on how, let's say a pizza, is made.

 

My friend, who is a Chinese citizen, finally had to hire a guy from Italy to come in and re - retrain them on how she wants it done.

 

Great, yes. But some would also call it common sense. In fact, iirc, you need some type of feasibility study done for the licensing process for most things like this in China. But maybe a store/restaurant is different than what I was looking at (factory). Maybe Bill can chime in on this.

 

My wife likes pepperoni. And I would imagine you could get oven and most ingredients in China but maybe ingredients from US would make for a better pizza, i dont know. But I like pizza hut pizza in China better than US. And typical US ingredients might not be best in China. Seafood seems to be very popular for pizza in China.

 

Agree totally about Pizza Hut being, for the most part, better in China than back home. Only problem is that 80% of their menu is seafood and they don't like putting tomato sauce on their pizzas. Once you navigate around that, though, it's pretty good.

 

Not sure about pepperoni. Pizza Hut used to have a pepperoni pizza, but has since taken it off the menu. Perhaps it wasn't very popular?

 

Someone has mentioned Chinese people generally being lactose intolerant. This is generally in the south, but even so people eat pizza. Not sure why.

 

I think it will be crucial to see what the market is in your area before opening up a pizza restaurant. If there's a Pizza Hut in the area, be careful. Pizza Hut has been very careful to keep prices low and offer what Chinese refer to as "set meals" that are cheap. Also, especially in Tianjin, there is a huge difference between what people tell you they'd buy and what they actually fork over cash for. Tianjin is not noted for having a lot of rich students and the vast majority of them would probably never even think about spending more than 10 RMB for a meal.

 

No matter what government connections one thinks they have, a non-Chinese passport holder having anything to do with a business that is not 100% legitimate is a serious risk. I've seen it hundreds of times -- it's not a pretty picture. The days when you can hold off immigration and tax authorities with a well-placed phone call have passed into myth in Tianjin.

 

 

business should be opened by PRC citizen , its easy

[GZBILL]

I think it would be beneficial to interview some students and ask them "If there were a pizza restaurant here what are some things you would like to see in it and also ask them all together do you think it is a needed thing to have here...." Just a thought hope it was helpful just speaking from seeing 1 failure and one near and maybe soon failure on this type of place

 

This is great advice. Anything that can help refine and strengthen your marketing plan is a plus. One note:

 

I'm assuming you're going to teach people how to make pizzas. One thing about Chinese chefs is that they can be highly inconsistent. I have a good friend who opened up an Italian restaurant. She said that she's always having problems with the help being a bit too creative - adding their own take to the recipe. Apparently, this is fairly common in China. From what she tells me, a chef must create something spectacular, something which will set them apart from other chefs.

 

The only problem with this is that when creating "foreign" food, there is an expectation (from foreigners) for there to be some consistency (one meal to the next) on how, let's say a pizza, is made.

 

My friend, who is a Chinese citizen, finally had to hire a guy from Italy to come in and re - retrain them on how she wants it done.

 

Great, yes. But some would also call it common sense. In fact, iirc, you need some type of feasibility study done for the licensing process for most things like this in China. But maybe a store/restaurant is different than what I was looking at (factory). Maybe Bill can chime in on this.

 

My wife likes pepperoni. And I would imagine you could get oven and most ingredients in China but maybe ingredients from US would make for a better pizza, i dont know. But I like pizza hut pizza in China better than US. And typical US ingredients might not be best in China. Seafood seems to be very popular for pizza in China.

 

Agree totally about Pizza Hut being, for the most part, better in China than back home. Only problem is that 80% of their menu is seafood and they don't like putting tomato sauce on their pizzas. Once you navigate around that, though, it's pretty good.

 

Not sure about pepperoni. Pizza Hut used to have a pepperoni pizza, but has since taken it off the menu. Perhaps it wasn't very popular?

 

Someone has mentioned Chinese people generally being lactose intolerant. This is generally in the south, but even so people eat pizza. Not sure why.

 

I think it will be crucial to see what the market is in your area before opening up a pizza restaurant. If there's a Pizza Hut in the area, be careful. Pizza Hut has been very careful to keep prices low and offer what Chinese refer to as "set meals" that are cheap. Also, especially in Tianjin, there is a huge difference between what people tell you they'd buy and what they actually fork over cash for. Tianjin is not noted for having a lot of rich students and the vast majority of them would probably never even think about spending more than 10 RMB for a meal.

 

No matter what government connections one thinks they have, a non-Chinese passport holder having anything to do with a business that is not 100% legitimate is a serious risk. I've seen it hundreds of times -- it's not a pretty picture. The days when you can hold off immigration and tax authorities with a well-placed phone call have passed into myth in Tianjin.

 

 

business should be opened by PRC citizen , its easy

 

If it's in the name of the PRC citizen, it's easy to start a business. The problem starts when the non-PRC spouse is a beneficial owner or performs labor of any type. Unless the non-PRC spouse has a work permit tied directly and exclusively to the business and the resulting residence permit, there can be major tax and immigration compliance issues.

[Jaseball]

Opening a pizza restaurant in China is about as risky as opening a steakhouse in an Indian religious mecca.

 

 

Outback Steakhouse Expanding to India

 

 

 

 

To avoid using cow meat, the new restaurants will import Yak meat from neighboring Tibet. ¡°It tastes like chicken¡±, claims Shamta.

 

 

Yeah, sounds like a real smart move.

[carl.hops]

Thanks to everyone who's commented, you've given me a lot to think about.