How Owen and I Obtained a Meeting in GZ

[Mick]

Several members of the "pit" have written and/or posted that they would like information regarding how Owen and I managed to get a meeting with on of the higher ups on the GZ food chain back in February of this year. What follows is a brief account of how we managed to get the meeting.

 

Perhaps a bit of background is necessary in order to appreciate the situation the Black Holers found themselves in by January, 2003. Since August GZ had been issuing the famous "white slips" rather than visas upon successful completion of the interview. From August to January we were submitted to endless waiting, mass confusion, conflicting information from the various agencies involved, and just given the general run around. Some visas started trickling out in January but most of these were for folks who had been interviewed in November and even some in December. Those of us from August were still stuck in the Black Hole and we couldn't get straight answers from anyone. Several folks at DOS and CA were helpful but were soon either silenced or transferred to other positions. The information pipeline was basically shut. This was particularly true for Owen and I who were living in China. Calling DOS/CA was a nightmare for us due to the time differential, not to mention expensive. Calling GZ was a complete exercise in futility. No information was given out and it was hard to get past the front line of defense in terms of the phone answering system.

 

Meanwhile, many Black Holers were at their wits end due to conflicting reports coming out of the various agencies. One member, for example, was told in late December that his case was cleared, then told, no it is not cleared, then told it was in fact cleared, and finally told it had to be resubmitted. There were so many cases of mixed signals and snafus that everyone's patience was tried to the limit.

 

Owen and I were getting pretty fed up by this time. I rarely could get through on the phone to GZ. Their email responses were cut and paste and they never answered my questions. Ditto Owen. It all came to a head one day when Owen, after waiting an interminable time on hold with GZ, finally got through to a VO. The VO basically told him that GZ "didn't make mistakes" and when Owen tried to talk to him about this, the VO hung up on him. Last straw!

 

It was at this point that Owen and I decided we would try to get an appointment with one of the leaders at GZ. We intended to represent not only ourselves, but all Candle members who were stuck in the Black Hole. We managed to get the email address of Richard Adams, then head of the IV Unit at GZ. So we emailed him asking for a meeting. No response.

 

So, at this point we asked that Candle members start a flood of emails and faxes to RA in our behalf, requesting that he meet with us. This happened over a period of several days. Meanwhile, Owen and I were still emailing him requesting a meeting. He was overwhelmed by the volume of email and started responding to us, asking what we wanted. We explained that we were not interested in a "bitch and complain meeting" but instead, wanted to sit down and discuss the concerns of a large group of people. Next followed a strange series of three way emails between RA, Owen, and myself. These communications were actually to bizarre to explain in a rational manner. He finally said we could have a meeting but suggested we ask people to stop emailing him. We wrote back and basically told him that we would not call off the dogs until we had a meeting confirmed complete with date and time. He finally agreed, gave us an appointment on February 10 at 2 PM. We then called off the dogs.

 

Now you have to understand that obtaining the meeting was difficult and required the concerted efforts of not only Owen and myself, but a large number of Candle members who wrote, faxed, emailed, and called. In this case, it finally paid off. We got the meeting. Getting there was a problem. Owen lived in Shenyang, a long way from GZ. He had problems making travel arrangements due to the fact that this fell within the time frame of Spring Festival and most trains and planes were booked out. Through the help of a Candle member who lived in Beijing, he was able to get tickets and he and his lovely wife traveled all the way to GZ. For Li and I, getting to GZ was an easier proposition, or so we thought. We lived in Shantou which is about six hours by bus from GZ. So on Feb. 8 we hopped aboard one of those big cruiser busses and set out. About an hour into the trip, coming down a steep hill in a driving rain, the bus's brakes failed. Through an act of road planning genius, a toll plaza was placed at the bottom of the hill. We crashed into the back of a Toyota at about 70 miles per hour, running over the top of it before clipping off part of a toll booth and dragging the Toyota 150 yards down the road. One person in the Toyota died instantly and another was near death. Li was uninjured but I sprained my shoulder and had severely bruised ribs. We stood in the rain for about an hour and a half and they sent another bus for us. Finally, we arrived in GZ.

 

On Monday, Feb. 10 Owen and I had our meeting with RA. We were ushered in to the Consulate compound the back way due to construction. They frisked us, confiscating my felt tip pen.

 

We had a two hour meeting with RA and I must admit he was well prepared for us. We had emailed him an advanced copy of our agenda and he had prepared well for the meeting. He was cordial, informative, and generally receptive to us. I cannot complain about his attitude or his efforts. We also went to the meeting armed with a letter written by a Candle member and signed by numerous members whose cases were still up in the air. Also, a nice group of fiances and wives of Candle members met us in GZ and waited outside during the meeting in an effort to give us moral support.

 

All in all, I think the meeting was successful in many ways. But the real issue here is how we got the meeting. That is what people seem to want to know. Fact is, we made one hell of a lot of noise and this noise came from quite a few people. Many on the board were involved. Eric, AngryTexan, JoninDenver, Bob, Joseph-1, Bbzou, Jennifer Lam, JoeandLiyan, Don and PJ of course, R2D2, Ana, Charlotte, and many, many others. It was a concerted, orchestrated effort and we refused to back down. That is basically how we managed to get a meeting.

 

Times have changed. RA is no longer there. Also the "pit" crowd is facing different procedural issues than we of the Black Hole faced. Would the same tactic work again? I can't say.....but what I can say is that a group of voices has more power than one voice. And if you make enough noise, someone will listen.

 

Owen, if you read this, add your experience and advice. I am sure I left a few things out. Seems like this all happened years ago, but it has only been nine months ago.

 

Hope this helped.

[se_lang]

I first posted this message in "P-3 Pit Crew update (11/7)" But I think might fit better here.

 

 

 

I just started this process I am only 60 days into TSC but everybody talks about contacting GZ about delays with P3 has anyone contacted the Embassy in Beijing this I would think is their boss I think when the people in Beijing are taking time reading letters about GZ they might get a bit annoyed and do something, think about it when you go to wal-mart and the clerk says sorry cant help you what is your next response, mine is "let me see your manager" maybe a group complaint hand written and passed around the CFL members to be mailed to Beijing Via DHL, as individuals we have no power base CFL has over 600 members not to mention all the other different groups we all need to find a way to pull together as a group so we can be heard, Maybe a group trip to GZ,what do you think GZ or Beijing would think with a bunch of pissed Americans standing around outside talking to news agencies, Call me naive or ignorant but I know until we make ourselves heard nothing will change.

[keelec]

Mick,

 

Thank you for the very thorough explanation. It sounds like even the GODS were working against you. Fatal Bus Crash on the trip, No Train Tickets, etc. I am a little surprised that they don't do the trains Italian Style..... Put in as many people as one can cram inside..... I remember one trip that I was on with 1 seat for 6 people!!!!

 

I think we should first elect some fearless leaders that are actually either in China, or could plan to go to China. Perhaps 2 individuals is a good idea. I know that robhon has been quite vocal lately. But, I would suggest taking nominations..... Then, the Candle has a wonderful voting capability (hmmm, could I create a hundred bogus accounts and stack the deck?????). I presume the leaders should be American, although an argument could be made for including a third Chinese leader. Although the "Old Advisors" may be helpful for us, our representatives should also be somewhere in the process (BCIS through GZ).

 

The next thing that needs to be decided (or perhaps in conjunction with choosing leaders) is an agenda.

 

I would recommend not approaching this with too narrow of a scope. However, we still need to come up with suggestions that are "reasonable" in the eyes of the GZ management and the government.

 

For example,

It is a wonderful idea to "fix" the P3 Pit...... We could just throw everyone that is in the P3 Pit into the P4 Pit!!!!!!! Problem fixed, done with, and onto the next!!!!!

 

A better approach would be to come up with a better way to avoid the pits altogether. Perhaps it would be as simple as improving record keeping. Perhaps the NVC needs to organize their paperwork better prior to sending it to GZ (I.E. Something that could be coordinated stateside).

 

GZ definitely needs to be able to FIND all of the applications, and have some reason for their order of processing cases.

 

Oh, and the "Real Boss" is neither in GZ, nor in Beijing. It is our good old Federal Government, right here in the USA.

 

----- Clifford ------

[se_lang]

well Keelec you have my vote, But I still think 100 pissed Americans with picket signs is more fun. However it is done something need to be done for the long term not a quick fix to silence the squeaky wheel, I am just one that believes if you want big results you need to make big waves and th eonly way to make a big wave is with a lot of people.

[Mick]

well Keelec you have my vote, But I still think 100 pissed Americans with picket signs is more fun. However it is done something need to be done for the long term not a quick fix to silence the squeaky wheel, I am just one that believes if you want big results you need to make big waves and th eonly way to make a big wave is with a lot of people.

With all due respect, I would advise against the picket outside. The Chinese authorities would swoop down on you faster than you could say "Chinese slammer". Above all, the Chinese treasure stability. I am afraid any kind of protest would be ill received.

[se_lang]

well Keelec you have my vote, But I still think 100 pissed Americans with picket signs is more fun. However it is done something need to be done for the long term not a quick fix to silence the squeaky wheel, I am just one that believes if you want big results you need to make big waves and th eonly way to make a big wave is with a lot of people.

With all due respect, I would advise against the picket outside. The Chinese authorities would swoop down on you faster than you could say "Chinese slammer". Above all, the Chinese treasure stability. I am afraid any kind of protest would be ill received.

Gesh Mick where is your sense of adventure

 

I know it is not the US, but I can dream.

[Dave G.]

well Keelec you have my vote, But I still think 100 pissed Americans with picket signs is more fun. However it is done something need to be done for the long term not a quick fix to silence the squeaky wheel, I am just one that believes if you want big results you need to make big waves and th eonly way to make a big wave is with a lot of people.

With all due respect, I would advise against the picket outside. The Chinese authorities would swoop down on you faster than you could say "Chinese slammer". Above all, the Chinese treasure stability. I am afraid any kind of protest would be ill received.

Gesh Mick where is your sense of adventure

 

I know it is not the US, but I can dream.

No...no...no...no...no...no...no...no............you're all going about it the wrong way! You're talking about overt tactics. Perhaps this calls for covert tactics.

 

Let's use the movie True Lies as our plan of action template. Send Eric into the embassy -- scuba gear and all -- through the sewers of GZ. He can pop (pop...not poop) out of some urnal and plant listening devices throughout the toilet systems of the embassy. Then, when GZ staff members share potty time together, their sneers and snide remarks regarding visas can be monitored. Based on what we learn, we can know how best to push things along.

 

So, ya up for the challenge, 0069? http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-025.gif

 

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/aktion/action-smiley-082.gifhttp://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/aktion/action-smiley-062.gif

 

BTW: Why is 77 better than 69? Because you get "eight" more. Think about it.......http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-034.gif

[Eric&Yuhui]

Let's use the movie True Lies as our plan of action template.  Send Eric into the embassy -- scuba gear and all -- through the sewers of GZ.  He can pop (pop...not poop) out of some urnal and plant listening devices throughout the toilet systems of the embassy.  Then, when GZ staff members share potty time together,

Great idea !

But I don't do sewers.. sorry

[keelec]

well Keelec you have my vote, But I still think 100 pissed Americans with picket signs is more fun. However it is done something need to be done for the long term not a quick fix to silence the squeaky wheel, I am just one that believes if you want big results you need to make big waves and th eonly way to make a big wave is with a lot of people.

With all due respect, I would advise against the picket outside. The Chinese authorities would swoop down on you faster than you could say "Chinese slammer". Above all, the Chinese treasure stability. I am afraid any kind of protest would be ill received.

I guess it all depends on where the picket is, and how it is held.

 

I liked what happened, perhaps spontaneously, when Mick & Owen did their meeting with the group of Fiancees/Spouses outside the embassy. No signs, but just there enough to be noticed.

 

Also, remember, the true BOSSES are here in the USA. A 1000 man march on Washington DC would be enough to get the media attention..... Of course, it would be difficult to get that many people together at the same time, all with the same needs.

 

----- CK -----

[warpedbored]

well Keelec you have my vote, But I still think 100 pissed Americans with picket signs is more fun. However it is done something need to be done for the long term not a quick fix to silence the squeaky wheel, I am just one that believes if you want big results you need to make big waves and th eonly way to make a big wave is with a lot of people.

With all due respect, I would advise against the picket outside. The Chinese authorities would swoop down on you faster than you could say "Chinese slammer". Above all, the Chinese treasure stability. I am afraid any kind of protest would be ill received.

I guess it all depends on where the picket is, and how it is held.

 

I liked what happened, perhaps spontaneously, when Mick & Owen did their meeting with the group of Fiancees/Spouses outside the embassy. No signs, but just there enough to be noticed.

 

Also, remember, the true BOSSES are here in the USA. A 1000 man march on Washington DC would be enough to get the media attention..... Of course, it would be difficult to get that many people together at the same time, all with the same needs.

 

----- CK -----

Keelec I don't think that's all that far fetched. I have often thought that someone should create a moderators group and unite all of the K-visa websites into a cohesive political action commitee. There are thousands then. Add in thier friends and relatives and I don't think a 1000 man march would be unrealistic. Alas I am more of a dreamer than an organizer. I like to think up ideas but I am poor at following them through.

[king]

Going back to the basic need, to get the PIT people petitions moving. I am not sure why there is a PIT. Maybe some of you know or have indications why. My thought is because of the additional security checks in the U.S. when there is "hit" on the alien's name. I have several cases that are long delayed in the U.S. because of such checks. I received an inquiry today from an American lawyer with a long delayed file at NVC. Her client recently received a visit from the FBI.

 

In any case, first try to identify the cause and location of the problem, so the effort can be direced at the right target. A protest directed at Guangzhou may get attention, but if the Visa section is not making the decisions any effort there may not be very effective.

 

The new IV unit chief is a Martha Hutchens.

 

By the way it would be very interesting to see a protest at the Consulate if you all can get some benefit out of it. If you would do that, get as many USCs and PLRs as possible inside the consulate compound before you bring out the signs and done have any signs outside the compound, that way you will be on "American soil" and technically out of China's jurisdiction.

[robhon]

My sense is that the security stuff is already done when it reaches GZ. The Pit Crew has already endured months and months of security check delays while their cases were at the NVC. This, from all I can tell, is almost purely office mismanagement. The NVC says our cases have been forwarded. We've confirmed their delivery to the consulate. But the consulate says our cases "haven't been received." I believe this is code for, "We haven't opened the box that came from DHL and entered your case into our system yet." And when they DID start opening boxes they didn't bother to find the oldest boxes to open. GZ says they process the oldest cases first but that seems to only pertain to the oldest cases they have entered into their system.

 

This is the P3 Pit as I understand it.