Riot in Shishou

[Guest jin979]

Dont start fighting or getting personal. the topic is the riots in china, not expats. Which many of us living here are too

[knloregon]

Sorry I was camping on the coast----missed all the fun...

 

Can we stop splitting hairs on this? I think we have common ground.

 

China doesn't have effective Rule of Law. There are few impartial courts where people can take grievances to be resolved in any semblance of fairness or impartiality.

 

so they take to the streets---most of the incidents cited here are exactly those kinds of issues that the courts resolve in the US---personal in nature---crimes of local corruption, and injustice against individuals.

 

The liberal western press (NYTimes is particularly wishful in this respect) usually misinterprets these riots as a sign of broader dissatisfaction with the Chinese gov. and political system on a broader scale----its not.

 

And as Jin suggests---its also cultural. As a paraphrase from central China---- (sorry I cant quote it correctly)From the Song dynasty I think (but stand to be corrected) "Of course we are totally loyal to the Emperor, but there many mountains between him and us."

[Guest Pommey]

Its not only in China

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p-yiJaiHNg...feature=related

 

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

The liberal western press (NYTimes is particularly wishful in this respect) usually misinterprets these riots as a sign of broader dissatisfaction with the Chinese gov. and political system on a broader scale----its not.

 

It's not so much the happenings in China are "misinterpreted," in the Western press, but that they deliberately misrepresented for the sake of the audience that has come to expect it.

[knloregon]

~ It's not so much the happenings in China are "misinterpreted," in the Western press, but that they deliberately misrepresented for the sake of the audience that has come to expect it. ~

 

Extremely lucid observation.

 

There most certainly are NYT's reporters with extensive experience in China, with their heads on straight---and more than capable of getting the story right (sometimes I read them, and am surprised by the balance ---so I have to recheck the source---still, its the exception) ---but these reporters also must submit though the labyrinth of editors (thought-police)---who in order to placate, and entertain its oh-so liberal readership, are dishing it up-----and I'm sure, many are tearing their hair out in Beijing, reading the edited version of their own words in the Sunday NYT's..

 

Our local liberal rag ---(actually, not so local, largest circulation north of SF) --- The Oregonian ---is much worse than the NYT's, since it doesn't have the benefit of a pool of international reporters (only one that I know of), calling in to remind editors of the real world out there. Their coverage in the past on China hasn't just been slanted---its been fiction. On Page One.

[potato]

I've been living in China for the past 2.5 years, and I can speak and understand Mandarin(also the local variant) relatively well, so I would say I have a decent understanding of what goes on. The police/law enforcement is very different here than in America. Firstly, many police seem to take their job a lot less seriously. I often see police and security guards with unbuttoned shirts, sleeping on the job, and chatting with each other on the job. Even the armored cars that take money from the banks in the morning are just lightly modified old vans which are filled with guys in their early 20s holding shotguns who love to shout "hello!" as I walk past their van.

 

There are also lots of police/law who are really assholes and corrupt. There was a posting on XiaoNei, the Chinese version of FaceBook, which had a phrase: "The greatest enemy of fairness in China is the police station". There are these old trucks that drive around with some variant of "law enforcement" stenciled on the side. They are really assholes. These are the guys who chase the people with carts selling stuff on the streets away. Their job is still not 100% clear to me, but they seem to just pick on whoever they feel like. Once they just blocked this guy who was riding a scooter and pushed him off/confiscated the stuff that he was carrying (he was selling stuff on the street a minute earlier). Another time, there was some scaffolding set up by some workers so they could repair a shop sign above the shop's entrance. The "enforcers" came over and were ordering them to take down the scaffolding, saying it was blocking the street(it wasn't). The workers pleaded, but the enforcers insisted that they take it down. These enforcers are probably the people who beat that old woman selling ice cream or whatever. I think those enforcers are not actually police, but somehow are indirectly sanctioned by the police. I was also unlucky enough to be on a busy street market when those enforcers showed up on one end, prompting every seller to book it down the street in my direction, carts in tow.

 

Another thing is that lots of things are put on as a show. For example, the police or health inspection would be coming to inspect a small restaurant. They would tell the restaurant before they came there exactly when they were coming. Then, the restaurant would put on their show of being so clean and perfect. The health inspector does his show of inspecting and approving the restaurant. He has to do this so the local government can boast about how all the restaurants in the area have a perfect health rating, etc. The funny thing is, everyone knows it's all a show, but they have to just go along with it so the people one level above them can be appeased. Even those "enforcers" don't really passionately oppose street sellers, they just have to be able to tell their boss that the streets are merchant-free.

 

That's all I'll say for now. I don't claim to have 100% knowledge of everything that goes on, but this is some of the stuff I've observed while living here.

Edited June 29, 2009 by potato (see edit history)

[knloregon]

~ two and a half years is a good track record...

 

What city are you in?

[potato]

~ two and a half years is a good track record...

 

What city are you in?

 

Xi'an

[knloregon]

I love Xi'an, particularly inside the old city wall.... Lucky Guy...

[Tony_onrock]

Well, in China whether you have more freedom, really depends on who you are. I have too many stories to tell but then I don't want to offend those who genuinely love China.

So let me just pick one that happened in Shanghai. In Shanghai, it is perfectly safe almost in any part of the city and any time of the day or night. So one day I was chatting with some cops on why they don't wear a bullet proof vest. But then found out they don't even carry guns. A few days later came the news that a yong man went into a police station and stabbed and killed six cops. He was hailed as a hero generally by the public. Now, Shanghai cops based on what I have seen and experienced are probably the most polite in all of China. The fact that people hate the cops so much speak for something. The funny part of it is that before each cop got stabbed, he was yelling at him something like how dare you try to stab me. There are lots of riots, real ones. One could easily find out about them on the internet before. But now most of the posts are deleted by the government. On the other hand people do argue or fight with cops more than in the US. One Chinese tourist learned it the hard way in upstate NY that there is something called resisting arrest. You can see mostly women engaged in yelling matches with on the streets of Shanghai on a routine basis and most oftern over traffic violations. Then the young man who killed 6 cops was from Beijing. He was stopped for questioning about the bike he was peddling. Cops suspected it was stolen though it was rented. He had an attitude and refused to answer questions. In the US cops may probably take to the precinct and rough him up a bit and then he would file a complaint. Then there is a civilian complaint board review, etc. But here they beat him up, hitting him in the private areas. A NY cop may have done the same and probably a bit worse. The Young man in NY would then hire a lawyer, claim 7 million in damages and settle for 3. Mr. Yang, the young man here did the same. Filed a complaint, was not satisfied with the settlement of a few thousand RMB. Had he tried to file a legal claim, chances are the court would refuse to take the case. (they did with our attempt to file one against the Bureau of Propaganda in Shanghai for a commercial dispute, citing social effect as an excuse). The young man got upset and killed a few. He was denied his right to chose lawyers, volunteer lawyers who share his view. Eventually he got a bullet in the head as justice. Then again every day of the court proceeding there were a group of people demonstrated in front of the court house. Is there freedom in China? Is there more freedom? I was taken into police station a couple of times, once for breaking some one's nose, once for a fight that was fare and even and twice for roller blading on the streets with about 100 others and racing against the cops on scooters trying to stop us. In the US I would be arrested for the first two incidents, charged and I would then win or maybe not. In the latter incidents get a ticket and pay a fine. But in China, in the first incident I payed damages mitigated by the police, quite a bargin considering 1500 RMB for fractured bones. But then the other guy was a laborer. In the second one, the cops said that since each suffered about the same damage, call it even, shake hands and go to have a drink together. In the roller blade incidents, the group were predominantly expats, we were told to appologize and let go. If I were a laborer or look like one will probably get the treatment Mr. Yang would get, beaten up first. I may have lost some important bodily functions and received little compensation because I already have a few kids. I would then have to figure out a way either to start a riot or figure out a way to burn down a police building or stab a few to get justice. TIC= this is China. It is not really any worse or better, just depends on who you are. Well, I know a friend who tried to help negotiate a settlement for a murder case, really bad. The guy killed his girl friend, cut her into several parts and took her car. There was a quote from the judges and the police involved in the investigation on how much it would cost from death penalty to life in prison. The man's family could not afford it. In another bar fight, one good friends brother killed one man with a bottle. His dad works somewhere that is helpful that my friend did some small scale developments, so cash was not that big a problem. His brother is now a free man. He was sentence to death, with a two year delay. Then commuted to life, then reduced to 15 and then release after a few on good behavior. He always regretted it. Had he paid out more, said he, his brother could have gotten off as an a neglegent killing (Manslauter?). Three year he would be out. Or better still had his dad been the head of some local government, like the incident in Guizhou that sparked a riot of thousands, he would be able to get off completely free. " I was doing some push up and the girl just said, life was so boring and jumped into the river, killing herself." " I did not rape her or kill her". The boy was arrested and then released when cops found out who his dad was. The girl's uncle was almost killed after he left the police station protesting alone. A "mob" or "gangster" group of 50 thousand in a small town surrounded the local government building and torched it. Autopsy was then performed by government and no rape was found, of course. Some mobsters were arrested. The a few government officials were fired and now "pushup" is a new word in the Chinese dictionary, at least over the internet before the recent internet censorship was tightened. This is China, the good, the bad and the suffocating oppression.