Zhao Ziyang

[samsong]

Prisoner of the State: The Secret Journal of Premier Zhao Ziyang

 

I just purchased the book thru Amazon. I think it will be a valuable book to have. It is worth being with the Iris Chang book I purchased shortly after her untimely death. They both have venerable attributes imo.

 

 

 

 

~In the last chapter, Zhao praises the western system of parliamentary democracy and says it is the only way China can solve its problems of corruption and a growing gap between the rich and poor.

[Guest shutterbug]

...

Zhao might have known this. He might have felt guilty all the years later. He might realized that he unintentionaly made a mistake along that political decision process.

...

 

Agree. As you said, I don't think he realized it until after the fact; on the other hand, the same cannot be said for many of the student leaders, they were opportunists - their "uncompromising" tactics essentially said "come get me!", and they certainly showed little tolerance toward dissenting views (someone I knew took part in the hunger strike, when he wanted to quit he was prevented from doing so).

[griz326]

Would saying "screw the protesters they knew the rules" make me an apologist? ...or I am I just saying the protesters were experiencing intellectual ignorance complicated by illusions of grandeur?

Edited May 28, 2009 by griz326 (see edit history)

[samsong]

...

Zhao might have known this. He might have felt guilty all the years later. He might realized that he unintentionaly made a mistake along that political decision process.

...

 

Agree. As you said, I don't think he realized it until after the fact; on the other hand, the same cannot be said for many of the student leaders, they were opportunists - their "uncompromising" tactics essentially said "come get me!", and they certainly showed little tolerance toward dissenting views (someone I knew took part in the hunger strike, when he wanted to quit he was prevented from doing so).

The students were used as a 'front' by a handful of revolutionist eager to overthrow the government. The plan did not work. Deng Xiaoping ordered the crushing blow to the students.

Deng Xiaoping; Time magazine's "person of the year- 1985".

[usagroom]

Zhao may be a good person, but he failed as a politician. He is partially the cause of the June 4 incident, in my opinion.

 

I have no doubt the publication of this book about Zhao is funded by organizations supported by anti-China

Zhao Ziyang is responsible for the military massacre? Failed as a politician? You said you are from the north in Beijing. Ask some from the south where Zhao served in Guangdong and elsewhere. Then read his own words about it and the context. Maybe he is lying and this is all a plot by anti-China forces as you say. Many Chinese who participated at Tiananman and around the country disagree with you.

 

I would be interested in your knowledge that this book is funded by, like people in your family, who are in anti-Chinese organizations. Your post reads rather biased.

[usagroom]

Zhao Ziyang = anti-China........ NOT!

[Guest shutterbug]

Prisoner of the State: The Secret Journal of Premier Zhao Ziyang

 

I just purchased the book thru Amazon. I think it will be a valuable book to have. It is worth being with the Iris Chang book I purchased shortly after her untimely death. They both have venerable attributes imo.

 

 

 

 

~In the last chapter, Zhao praises the western system of parliamentary democracy and says it is the only way China can solve its problems of corruption and a growing gap between the rich and poor.

 

While it is obvious in the long run democracy will take hold and that is the way to go, many things take more than simply giving everyone a vote. What about the largest democracy in the world? I have met a number of Indian friends over the years, when it comes to corruption the situation is as bad if not worse than that in China. Things aren't so black and white, and don't expect any panacea to cure all the social ills.

[Guest shutterbug]

Zhao may be a good person, but he failed as a politician. He is partially the cause of the June 4 incident, in my opinion.

 

I have no doubt the publication of this book about Zhao is funded by organizations supported by anti-China

Zhao Ziyang is responsible for the military massacre? Failed as a politician? You said you are from the north in Beijing. Ask some from the south where Zhao served in Guangdong and elsewhere. Then read his own words about it and the context. Maybe he is lying and this is all a plot by anti-China forces as you say. Many Chinese who participated at Tiananman and around the country disagree with you.

 

I would be interested in your knowledge that this book is funded by, like people in your family, who are in anti-Chinese organizations. Your post reads rather biased.

 

Joanne's post came off too strong, but it is hardly surprising, because I know where she was coming from.

 

You asked for the opinion of someone from the south, and even better someone from Guangdong. You got it, from someone who lived in Guangdong for nearly a decade and right through the events of 1989. The wave of demonstrations started in Beijing in April, but nothing happened in Guangzhou for over two weeks. It was not until the middle of May when students started taking trains to Beijing. Some quickly grew disillusioned. After Li Peng's speech on May 19, Zhao Ziyang disappeared from public view, movement of troops was discovered, it was clear that a crackdown was coming. Most students from out of town got back on the train again - my friends all got free rides back to Guangdong, because the government wanted them out of sight. There was a big demonstration in Guangzhou in the small hours of May 20, right after the combative speech by Li Peng, but it quickly fizzled and many went home. Campuses in Guangzhou were mostly empty on June 3. After a small demonstration in the early morning of June 4, when the students were looking for confrontation in the streets of Guangzhou but found none (it was hard to even find any traffic police that day, apparently a deliberate move by the provincial government), they returned to their campuses, packed their bags and went home, until classes resumed a few days later. Back then students in Guangzhou was the least enthusiastic about politics, most were far more interested in making money; for better or worse, the rest of the country are like that now - young people in general are far more pragmatic and interested in financial gains, politics is among the last things on their minds. When I was in college in 1989, no one I knew was a Communist Party Member, by the time I graduated the rate was 1-2%, and nowadays the percentage is several times higher than that among college students. Go figure.

 

One thing many foreigners fail to understand, is that nationalism runs high in China. Many are not happy with the government, yet they see it as a family feud and wish others to stay out of it, and become rather upset when someone from "outside" offers his opinion. Is it logical? No. However, when flag-waving starts, rational thoughts are out of the window. As I recall, certain elected officials here renamed French fries "freedom fries", even though the chips had nothing to do with the French; a number of patriots (including a few I know personally) cancelled vacation plans to France in 2003; fearful of a backlash that would hurt its business, hotel chain Sofitel quietly removed the French flag from its establishments in the US and kept it that way for a while.

 

Why are many Chinese so suspicious of western media? Certainly government propaganda is part of it, nationalism is part of it, but don't forget the western media earned it, too. Two recent examples: when one of China's oil companies tried to buy Unocal, it triggered a political storm in the US, politicians of all stripes were eager to wave the flag, and the media fanned the flames, everyone conveniently failed to mention that 90% of Unocal's reserve was in Southeast Asia, but then Americans are used to see the rest of the world as their backyards; then there was the torch relay before last year's Olympic Games, it was such a fiasco - media in the west dismissed massive turnout of Chinese students and ex-pats in San Francisco and in Australia as a show organized by the Chinese government, refusing to recognize it was a grassroot effort resulting from the anger that built up over earlier incidents, and ironically Fa Lun Gong supporters, who are among the most persistent demonstrators, were completely forgotten by the media. Everyone was guilty of making it way too political.

Edited May 29, 2009 by shutterbug (see edit history)

[samsong]

Zhao may be a good person, but he failed as a politician. He is partially the cause of the June 4 incident, in my opinion.

 

I have no doubt the publication of this book about Zhao is funded by organizations supported by anti-China

Zhao Ziyang is responsible for the military massacre? Failed as a politician? You said you are from the north in Beijing. Ask some from the south where Zhao served in Guangdong and elsewhere. Then read his own words about it and the context. Maybe he is lying and this is all a plot by anti-China forces as you say. Many Chinese who participated at Tiananman and around the country disagree with you.

 

I would be interested in your knowledge that this book is funded by, like people in your family, who are in anti-Chinese organizations. Your post reads rather biased.

Joanne is entitled to her thoughts and opinion without being assaulted behind a post of hers that has been taken out of context.

She should be respected as a young Chinese teacher that was present during those tumultuous times and her words debated, if one feels so inclined, but not slammed, as you have presented, as if you know better than her.

[Joanne]

Zhao may be a good person, but he failed as a politician. He is partially the cause of the June 4 incident, in my opinion.

 

I have no doubt the publication of this book about Zhao is funded by organizations supported by anti-China

Zhao Ziyang is responsible for the military massacre? Failed as a politician? You said you are from the north in Beijing. Ask some from the south where Zhao served in Guangdong and elsewhere. Then read his own words about it and the context. Maybe he is lying and this is all a plot by anti-China forces as you say. Many Chinese who participated at Tiananman and around the country disagree with you.

 

I would be interested in your knowledge that this book is funded by, like people in your family, who are in anti-Chinese organizations. Your post reads rather biased.

 

You are putting words in my mouth.

[HongKong2LA]

I want to say how f***ing awesome it is to have this discussion and how incredible it is to have actual real time witnesses like Joanne and Shutterbug to such dramatic historical events that were played out on the worlds stage engaged in this discussion is priceless. This truely makes CFL such a magnificiently unique experience that I feel blessed to be a part of it.

 

While being a real time, on-site witness to these events affords Joanne a certain elevated status, I think Zhao Ziyang's contribution to the development of a psuedo western style free market economy and the resident trappings for better or worse that go along with such a reform given China's previously relatively closed market communist economy, are largely recognized throughout the world as genuinely positive progress for the nation and it's people. I'm not sure we can label him as a failed politician although I agree he may have inadvertently contributed to the escalation of the confrontation between protesters and government when he addressed the crowd in person with his pleas for them to return home. The result may have given the protesters more bona fides than they may have had if he had not attended. In other words, his presence may have elevated their cause to higher degree of legitimacy than they might have otherwise achieved.

[usagroom]

Joanne is entitled to her thoughts and opinion without being assaulted behind a post of hers that has been taken out of context.

She should be respected as a young Chinese teacher that was present during those tumultuous times and her words debated, if one feels so inclined, but not slammed, as you have presented, as if you know better than her.

I did not slam her. She said some rather outrageous things and I asked her questions about it.

You are putting words in my mouth.

No, I asked you questions based on what you said. You said Zhao was a failure, responsible for the massacre, and his memoirs are published by anti-China people. Since from what I know he was not a failure (one day does not a failure make), tried to stop the massacre and get the students to stop(by many accounts), and wonder how you think anti-China people are publishing his memoirs (first time I heard that). Just questions for you about Zhao.

It might be wise to accept a personal report of being there at the time. Were you?

My SO was. My questions are about Zhao, the subject of this thread. As other Chinese have told me and posted here, Zhao was a longtime leader in the south, not just during 1989, and well respected. I don't seek confrontation from anyone, just explanation.

[usagroom]

I should say that I am only half way through the memoir and while I have read many many books and have had many conversations with people about him, this book from his own mouth is quite relevatory. Mostly because it is from him, others have said much of the same. I'd recommend it for anyone who is interested in the inner workings of the government and insight into the figures at that time. Quite the pageturner.

[samsong]

Joanne is a long time and respected member of this board and you came down too hard on her. As mentioned, she is entitled to her opinion, especially since she has 'up-close and personal' knowledge and feelings about the incident. I respect that immensely and pay attention to what she has to say about it every year.

Joanne doesn't post as much as she used to but as she mentioned, she post about Tiananmen Square around this time each year so respect should be shown for the feelings she has about it. Afterall, she was there.

Joanne was also a board moderator at one time and I have never seen her post anything bad or out of line since she's been here. Her post have always been nice and a joy to read.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion as well and you can debate whatever you read here. Just try to keep it tactful and within reason.

I appreciate your interest in the subject and in purchasing the memoirs. I too just purchased the book and am waiting for it in the mail. I think it is worth having and keeping; a part of history to read about.

 

Welcome to Candle, usagroom.

[usagroom]

I don't seek confrontation from anyone, just explanation.

"I would be interested in your knowledge that this book is funded by, like people in your family, who are in anti-Chinese organizations. [/b]Your post reads rather biased."

 

Seems rather confrontational to me.

Perhaps you neglected to read that she said "I have no doubt the publication of this book about Zhao is funded by organizations supported by anti-China.... I have a relative who is an activist in one of those groups."

 

Apologize for asking an appropriate question? What kind of place is this?

Edited May 29, 2009 by usagroom (see edit history)