China demands release...

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

China is growing increasingly upset over the thousands of artifacts that were stolen in years past, and displayed by other countries and individuals as if they belonged to them. China is rightfully demanding the return of its national treasures.

 

Fuming China bans Christie's, seeks return of 1.6m relics from 47 countries

 

BEIJING: A fuming China has decided to launch a worldwide drive seeking the return of 1.67 million cultural relics being shown in 2,000 museums.

 

It has also issued orders making it difficult for Christie's to do business in China after the auction house sold two Chinese cultural relics on Wednesday.

 

The anger stems from China's failure to stop the auction of two Chinese bronze heads, which the auction house sold for $35.9 million at a Paris auction. A group of Chinese lawyers had moved the court to block the auction while the government put pressure on the French government to intervene in the matter. The efforts proved futile.

 

China's State Administration of Cultural Heritage thundered on Thursday that the move will have "serious effects on Christie's development in China". The Administration condemned the auction of the bronze heads that were looted by British and French forces from Beijing's Summer Palace in 1860 saying that it "damaged Chinese citizens' cultural rights and feelings".

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/F...how/4196693.cms

[michaln]

they were bought by a chinese man who refuses to pay for them

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/a...0,6518067.story

Edited March 3, 2009 by michaln (see edit history)

[georgeandli]

Elgin Marbles[sp]. Situation stinks, Jesse. On the plus side, Iran opened their natonal museum again.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

they were bought by a chinese man who refuses to pay for them

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/a...0,6518067.story

 

 

I heard about this updated story this morning before leaving for work. One can only hope that Christies and Yves stupid Larauent takes a real pasting in world opinion. The right thing to do, is to return these, and ALL other artifacts stolen from China by Westerners throughout the centuries.

[Robert S.]

China should develop an elite corps of art recovery "ninjas" to steal back the stolen items.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

China should develop an elite corps of art recovery "ninjas" to steal back the stolen items.

 

 

That's what these guys are...

 

Reporting from Beijing -- And the bronze goes to . . . no one.

 

The identity of the bidder who promised to pay the estate of the late designer Yves Saint Laurent $40 million for bronze heads of a rabbit and a rat that had been looted from an imperial Chinese palace was revealed today: an advisor to a nonprofit group dedicated to repatriating missing relics.

 

But the winning bidder, Cai Mingchao, said he had no intention of paying for the heads, which the Chinese government maintain should be returned as stolen property.

Edited March 3, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Guest Pommey]

The UK,Europe and the US has hundreds of years of history of stealing treasures for museums and private rich collectors, from many countries they visited, going to be really hard to get them returned.

[warpedbored]

The red guard destroying so many of China's treasures during the cultural revolution doesn't give them a lot of credibility in the matter either. One could argue that the countries that have these artifacts preserved them from being destroyed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Destroy_old_world.jpg

Chinese poster saying: "We'll destroy old world and build new." Classical example of the Red art from the early Cultural Revolution. Worker crushes the crucifix, Buddha and classical Chinese texts with his hammer; 1966

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

The red guard destroying so many of China's treasures during the cultural revolution doesn't give them a lot of credibility in the matter either. One could argue that the countries that have these artifacts preserved them from being destroyed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Destroy_old_world.jpg

Chinese poster saying: "We'll destroy old world and build new." Classical example of the Red art from the early Cultural Revolution. Worker crushes the crucifix, Buddha and classical Chinese texts with his hammer; 1966

 

 

You're right Carl. So many thousands of national treasures and memories were destroyed during that awful period. Still, even as horribly sad as that is, these items still belong to China.

[warpedbored]

Perhaps Jesse but history is full of such examples. Should we give California back to Mexico? Should we restore the Monarchy and give Hawaii back to the native Hawaiians? Perhaps China should be negotiating to buy these relics back instead of demanding their unconditional return. The people or institutions that have them are not going to want to lose hundreds of millions on their investments just to appease China. If anything it gives China the image of throwing their weight around. Not very becoming.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Perhaps Jesse but history is full of such examples. Should we give California back to Mexico? Should we restore the Monarchy and give Hawaii back to the native Hawaiians? Perhaps China should be negotiating to buy these relics back instead of demanding their unconditional return. The people or institutions that have them are not going to want to lose hundreds of millions on their investments just to appease China. If anything it gives China the image of throwing their weight around. Not very becoming.

 

 

I guess I just don't see it that way. While wonderful that some treasures were rescued by taking them out of China, during the Cultural Revolution, they still belong to China.

 

I don't quite understand your references to California and Hawaii though. The borders of the US are clear, both continental and regarding Alaska, Hawaii, and other territories. I know the US has taken steps, though more would help, to ensure that the indigenous people of America, are respected for their national heritage and relics.

 

I guess there are some, like yourself, that don't see China's outrage when it comes to relics that were taken from within it's borders, which are also well-defined. I can see why they would be outraged when watching someone from another country behave as if a national relic belonging to China, somehow belonged to them. It's sort of like having someone from France or Germany waltz in and take a US relic like the constitution, or declaration of independence back to their country during the American Civil War, under the belief that they wanted to save it from ruin. The items still belong to the US.

 

The cultural revolution is over. Any relics that were taken away during that period should be returned.

[warpedbored]

Perhaps Jesse but history is full of such examples. Should we give California back to Mexico? Should we restore the Monarchy and give Hawaii back to the native Hawaiians? Perhaps China should be negotiating to buy these relics back instead of demanding their unconditional return. The people or institutions that have them are not going to want to lose hundreds of millions on their investments just to appease China. If anything it gives China the image of throwing their weight around. Not very becoming.

 

 

I guess I just don't see it that way. While wonderful that some treasures were rescued by taking them out of China, during the Cultural Revolution, they still belong to China.

 

I don't quite understand your references to California and Hawaii though. The borders of the US are clear, both continental and regarding Alaska, Hawaii, and other territories. I know the US has taken steps, though more would help, to ensure that the indigenous people of America, are respected for their national heritage and relics.

 

I guess there are some, like yourself, that don't see China's outrage when it comes to relics that were taken from within it's borders, which are also well-defined. I can see why they would be outraged when watching someone from another country behave as if a national relic belonging to China, somehow belonged to them. It's sort of like having someone from France or Germany waltz in and take a US relic like the constitution, or declaration of independence back to their country during the American Civil War, under the belief that they wanted to save it from ruin. The items still belong to the US.

 

The cultural revolution is over. Any relics that were taken away during that period should be returned.

The world was a barbaric place in the 1800s when these relics were taken. My inference to Ca and Hi were we stole California from Mexico and Hawaii from it's legitimate monarch.

[Robert S.]

I would like to partly take back my previous statement. If an object that was stolen or looted, like the Elgin Marbles, and then is preserved in the museum of a highly secure country, and the country it came from is not nearly as secure, then it should not be returned. Perhaps it could be returned sometime in a better situation. What I'm really against is private collectors who don't let the public see or even know what they have. That is who the art recovery ninjas should go after using high technology and covert means. The amount of art theft that is still taking place today is sickening, and most of it is commissioned by corrupt private collectors. As for things from China held by museums in other countries, some should be returned and some should not, depending on how important and secure is the museum holding the item and whether it is actually available to be viewed by the public. Besides, should not China have to pay a price for their previous self-destructiveness?

 

Great art is a legacy to all humankind, not just one country.

[IllinoisDave]

I would like to partly take back my previous statement. If an object that was stolen or looted, like the Elgin Marbles, and then is preserved in the museum of a highly secure country, and the country it came from is not nearly as secure, then it should not be returned. Perhaps it could be returned sometime in a better situation. What I'm really against is private collectors who don't let the public see or even know what they have. That is who the art recovery ninjas should go after using high technology and covert means. The amount of art theft that is still taking place today is sickening, and most of it is commissioned by corrupt private collectors. As for things from China held by museums in other countries, some should be returned and some should not, depending on how important and secure is the museum holding the item and whether it is actually available to be viewed by the public. Besides, should not China have to pay a price for their previous self-destructiveness?

 

Great art is a legacy to all humankind, not just one country.

Well said.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

So stealing from a thief is OK? I fail to see the morality of that.

 

 

It's going to be one for the courts to decide I guess:

 

Now the question is: What will happen if Cai doesn't pay?

Shan Jing, chief representative of Christie's Beijing office, said such a case would usually be submitted to the company's legal affairs department, and its lawyers would decide on the further course of action.

 

Wang Fenghai, chief lawyer at the China Association of Auctioneers, told China Daily that he is not optimistic about Cai's legal prospects.

 

"Theoretically, Cai is required to pay for the auction objects at the price agreed," he said. "In case of failing to do that, he is supposed to bear liabilities for default or, with the consent of ex-owner, Christie's may put the items up for auction again."

 

He added that Cai might be asked to pay the commission for the sale, estimated at 7 million euros for the 30-million-euro deal.

 

China worked hard to stop the sale, but Christies insisted on going through with it anyway:

 

The Chinese government has repeatedly demanded Christie's halt the sale of the two bronzes and return them to China.

 

Christie's insisted on the sale despite sweeping criticism and objections from China and around the world. After the sale, China said it would tighten checks on the auction house's operations.

 

The bronzes were once part of a fountain that displayed the 12 animals of the Chinese zodiac at the Old Summer Palace. Five of the bronzes have been returned to China while the whereabouts of the remaining five are unknown.

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-03...ent_7527977.htm