History of China

[david_dawei]

the problem here is truly one of history... or the lack of understanding thereof...

 

if someone wants to possibly understand chinese long history without actually studying it... then study the nomadic history of the Mongols, the northern tribes which would be similar to compressing chinese history... and yet on their small size they ruled vast territories and eventually China!

 

Their laws and ways are not unlike their more southern vast plain of china...

 

Here are the main issues, IMO. It all starts long ago with symbolism. this is what shamans understood; portend the future through kinship with the heavens and earth. Allegiance is paramount; loyalty is a blood brother. The common denominator is mankind. This is what makes them overly humanistic in the end.

 

Why do laws come into effect? Is it so much to control the masses? or protect the masses from each other? Or to protect a government from the masses?

 

The origin of why cultures institute laws is very telling of both their past and their hopeful future...

 

The northern enemies changed from fighting-for-survival tribes to rulers over vast lands in very little time... And instituted laws at a rapid rate... laws way ahead of history... yet, despite this very fast transformation it is ultimately similar to the way of China's very long history... and not at all like the fast track of the western way of the US...

 

I know... nobody is much interested in studying the impact of history.... it's too much fun to laugh about the modern issues we cannot understand... B)

[rogerluli]

You've certainly nailed down the whole thingie for me David...

 

I couldn't possibly undesrtand it any better with shamans portending the future and all...

[Jeikun]

To say the way things happened in the US is "fast track" is also to ignore history, David. Perhaps you are trivializing the familiar in favor of the exotic and thus robbing yourself of perspective.

 

Americans did not spring forth from the ground 232 years ago. Our philosophy and government and culture largely decended and evolved over the last 2,400 years and before from Ancient Greece, Plato, Germanic and Celtic Europe, the Roman empire, european culture and monarchy... to say because America's identity as a soverign nation is barely over 200 years old, that we were not built on these things would be just as silly as saying because Communist China's government is only 60 years old that China is a baby country, culture, and people. 2,500 years is a long time. Maybe "fast tracked" to you, but compared to what?

 

I learned Aesop's fables as I was learning to read. I heard Grimm's fairy tales, and european children's songs as a child. I studied English literature and Greek philosophy in high school. This is all part of our history and culture, and in my mental framework.

 

And while I know you aren't saying it... US culture and history isn't just yankee doodle dandy, monday night football, hollywood, and hot dogs. If any of our SO's see it that way, that is OUR failure, not theirs.

[Guest jin979]

Dave you are a well educated inteligent man, self learnt or big university it does not matter. unfortunatly most are not this way (not just usa)

it is strange most do not like to learn history these or others, i think it is the best thing from history we understand.

i did not go to high school, but have taught myself english, read history and philosophy all my life and compare to real street lives.

 

USA is country of many races that is true and new leader brings chance of new understandings for this i hope, but i think in some ways still usa culture is very too young but thinks its understands old.

 

AS i rember when one of Robs best friends call me "slanty eye mexican" and others have silantly just dissapered. my point is not to make discussion on racism (its here as in all countries) but that USA is a young country and from start oppressed others, to be white and from europe descent is best, you hear this all the time, right oh I'm Irish/americm, I'm Italian/american, but mostly they talk about cultures and countries they know nothing about and/or have ever lived in, or studied ther histories.

 

i think what i'm saying is that you say american history is a development from europe history, but most/many here have no knowlegde, understanding or concern of that, they really think usa history/culture is hot dogs, dinners, big trucks, crazy size houses and baseball and the right to buy anything you want on credit, its toy culture.

 

this makes me think it is a culture of children, i mean this with no offense.

[Jeikun]

 

 

i think what i'm saying is that you say american history is a development from europe history, but most/many here have no knowlegde, understanding or concern of that, they really think usa history/culture is hot dogs, dinners, big trucks, crazy size houses and baseball and the right to buy anything you want on credit, its toy culture.

 

this makes me think it is a culture of children, i mean this with no offense.

 

 

I agree in this to a point, in that many Americans are ignorant of even their own backgrounds, history, and culture. Yes many people's lives and viewpoints never expand more than 100 miles from their home, and their history is only as long as their grandfather's memory. Sadly, I think this does not just apply to Americans. It's a disease of the modern age when the "next" and the "new" is shoved down your throat faster than you can swallow the "now". America is just the most obvious example of it because we got to this point first.

 

Look to yourself, and teach your children well, is all I can advise. China, or the USA... in both places (and all) the majority of us will never have control of what others do and think.

 

Of course here, it's interesting to talk about it, even argue, but in reality we all just do what we must to survive and try to have a fulfilling life. Not enough energy to try to run everyone else's life too.

 

However, it doesn't mean our culture isn't worth understanding. Look outside your own walls and prejudices.

 

I hear many people give David (deserved) praise for wrapping his mind around Chinese concepts. But why do we always assume that an American can see the wisdom in Eastern thought if he is smart enough, but a Chinese person cannot see the wisdom in Western thought? Is it that Chinese are inferior thinkers? Or that western thought is so foolish that any Chinese person is too wise to be so foolish? I find both ideas insulting and arrogant to a degree.

 

So instead of REALLY sharing ideas and concepts and our own culture, we trivialize it. We reinforce our SO's own old stereotypes, while at the same time giving ourselves a big ol' pat on the back for trying to overcome our own. We do ourselves discredit, and willingly accept labels that do not define us, to appease, rather than to grow together.

 

And many who do "defend" the US on messageboards and such, do it with such zeal that it will never be accepted except by someone who alreayd agrees, and could never change anyone's mind anyway because of all the opinions a Chinese woman has to consider, a loud angry guy on a messageboard isn't likely one she will think of

 

I just see a lot of one-sidedness, closed-mindedness, and pontificating (and yeah I know I've been a part at times) out there, and often it is not from the people we want to believe it's coming from.

 

But again, nothing I say will change anyone's opinion, and many of you probably just take me as a blowhard. I have my own opinions of those of you who do

Edited January 29, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

my 'fast trak' comment is more about how quickly a country comes to a set of "laws"... it's interesting to look at the historical forces for what drove one to the laws they put in place.. after all, the beef we keep hearing on CFL is about either the lack of laws in china or the enforce of those laws (or maybe more rightly so, the enforcement of phantom laws)...

 

Chinese law came into fruition over a very long history and for very specific reasons... but it's maybe too much to study in fact... but when one considers the influence from the dynasty rule by non-ethic rulers, it adds in another interesting realm to look at. The northern tribes shared much in common and yet there are strong differences...

 

yes Jin.. .self educated; no university for me... just an interest and willingness to suspend anything I've learned to understand another culture.

[Guest jin979]

 

 

i think what i'm saying is that you say american history is a development from europe history, but most/many here have no knowlegde, understanding or concern of that, they really think usa history/culture is hot dogs, dinners, big trucks, crazy size houses and baseball and the right to buy anything you want on credit, its toy culture.

 

this makes me think it is a culture of children, i mean this with no offense.

 

 

I agree in this to a point, in that many Americans are ignorant of even their own backgrounds, history, and culture. Yes many people's lives and viewpoints never expand more than 100 miles from their home, and their history is only as long as their grandfather's memory. Sadly, I think this does not just apply to Americans. It's a disease of the modern age when the "next" and the "new" is shoved down your throat faster than you can swallow the "now". America is just the most obvious example of it because we got to this point first.

 

Look to yourself, and teach your children well, is all I can advise. China, or the USA... in both places (and all) the majority of us will never have control of what others do and think.

 

Of course here, it's interesting to talk about it, even argue, but in reality we all just do what we must to survive and try to have a fulfilling life. Not enough energy to try to run everyone else's life too.

 

i agree completly, survival is key, but survival through undrestanding is best, and best achieve when its goal is alls survival.

you make most important point teach your children. i will add teach yor children to care for family and society.

[Guest jin979]

my 'fast trak' comment is more about how quickly a country comes to a set of "laws"... it's interesting to look at the historical forces for what drove one to the laws they put in place.. after all, the beef we keep hearing on CFL is about either the lack of laws in china or the enforce of those laws (or maybe more rightly so, the enforcement of phantom laws)...

 

Chinese law came into fruition over a very long history and for very specific reasons... but it's maybe too much to study in fact... but when one considers the influence from the dynasty rule by non-ethic rulers, it adds in another interesting realm to look at. The northern tribes shared much in common and yet there are strong differences...

 

yes Jin.. .self educated; no university for me... just an interest and willingness to suspend anything I've learned to understand another culture.

 

ok David let me think, its so hard to explain this in english for me.... problem is to explain chinese thinking into english understanding , its too complex.

ok harmony in family and society, balance, selficeness

Edited January 29, 2009 by jin979 (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

You've certainly nailed down the whole thingie for me David...

 

I couldn't possibly undesrtand it any better with shamans portending the future and all...

Almost every culture around the world started in shamanism.... it is the oldest religion... it is essentially universal... western civilization promoted itself to a bevy of gods... and then reduced to one.. not two... sorry a trinity B)

 

The point is... I'm not sure what your contributing as an understanding of the history of china.

[Jeikun]

Also I wanted to add, I realize the difference is in that China's history and culture is continuous. Government may have changed, but language, culture, and ethnicity has evolved in a steady stream from the most ancient times... as China is the only of the great ancient civilizations that still exists.

 

I in no way mean to trivialize this, or imply I am too dense to get it.

 

I also don't mean to imply insofar as richness and depth, that our culture is in the same league. I value our culture, but compared to China, all the world's cultures are young.

 

I just don't like to see it exaggerated to the point that it often is. There are so many great things to be seen in American and English literature, western philosophy and culture. I just keep getting visions of some redneck living in a trailer park with his Chinese wife, and the horrible and shallow vision of America that must come from that.

 

Just wish we could take joy and pride in both, and pass it on to your kids as something to be proud of and appreciate on both sides, you know?

[Guest jin979]

You've certainly nailed down the whole thingie for me David...

 

I couldn't possibly undesrtand it any better with shamans portending the future and all...

Almost every culture around the world started in shamanism.... it is the oldest religion... it is essentially universal... western civilization promoted itself to a bevy of gods... and then reduced to one.. not two... sorry a trinity B)

 

The point is... I'm not sure what your contributing as an understanding of the history of china.

 

did not Plato and Aristople warn agaist them ?

[david_dawei]

my 'fast trak' comment is more about how quickly a country comes to a set of "laws"... it's interesting to look at the historical forces for what drove one to the laws they put in place.. after all, the beef we keep hearing on CFL is about either the lack of laws in china or the enforce of those laws (or maybe more rightly so, the enforcement of phantom laws)...

 

Chinese law came into fruition over a very long history and for very specific reasons... but it's maybe too much to study in fact... but when one considers the influence from the dynasty rule by non-ethic rulers, it adds in another interesting realm to look at. The northern tribes shared much in common and yet there are strong differences...

 

yes Jin.. .self educated; no university for me... just an interest and willingness to suspend anything I've learned to understand another culture.

 

ok David let me think, its so hard to explain this in english for me.... problem is to explain chinese thinking into english understanding , its too complex.

ok harmony in family and society, balance, selficeness

I do agree these are the basic hallmarks of chinese thought... social harmony and order; balance; group responsibilty. What's most interesting is that this is not just philosophical thought but also covered traditional chinese medicine to describe the need to balance the body; And it was drawn from the understanding of how the universe operated and came about... So here, history is carried forward from neolitic cultures to modern culture

[Guest jin979]

Also I wanted to add, I realize the difference is in that China's history and culture is continuous. Government may have changed, but language, culture, and ethnicity has evolved in a steady stream from the most ancient times... as China is the only of the great ancient civilizations that still exists.

 

I in no way mean to trivialize this, or imply I am too dense to get it.

 

I also don't mean to imply insofar as richness and depth, that our culture is in the same league. I value our culture, but compared to China, all the world's cultures are young.

 

I just don't like to see it exaggerated to the point that it often is. There are so many great things to be seen in American and English literature, western philosophy and culture. I just keep getting visions of some redneck living in a trailer park with his Chinese wife, and the horrible and shallow vision of America that must come from that.

 

Just wish we could take joy and pride in both, and pass it on to your kids as something to be proud of and appreciate on both sides, you know?

 

 

 

 

there are many great things in both cultures to embrace. just need open mind right.

 

 

But have too say i will never like mcdonalds burgers , yuk

[david_dawei]

Also I wanted to add, I realize the difference is in that China's history and culture is continuous. Government may have changed, but language, culture, and ethnicity has evolved in a steady stream from the most ancient times... as China is the only of the great ancient civilizations that still exists.

 

I in no way mean to trivialize this, or imply I am too dense to get it.

 

I also don't mean to imply insofar as richness and depth, that our culture is in the same league. I value our culture, but compared to China, all the world's cultures are young.

 

I just don't like to see it exaggerated to the point that it often is. There are so many great things to be seen in American and English literature, western philosophy and culture. I just keep getting visions of some redneck living in a trailer park with his Chinese wife, and the horrible and shallow vision of America that must come from that.

 

Just wish we could take joy and pride in both, and pass it on to your kids as something to be proud of and appreciate on both sides, you know?

good points...

 

for me, the continuity of chinese culture is a wonderment... not in pure exaggerated appreciation but in awed shock. It is the world's oldest surviving civilization... To treat it purely with modern sentiment is to miss why they survived and why they are the way they are today... JMO.

[david_dawei]

Also I wanted to add, I realize the difference is in that China's history and culture is continuous. Government may have changed, but language, culture, and ethnicity has evolved in a steady stream from the most ancient times... as China is the only of the great ancient civilizations that still exists.

 

I in no way mean to trivialize this, or imply I am too dense to get it.

 

I also don't mean to imply insofar as richness and depth, that our culture is in the same league. I value our culture, but compared to China, all the world's cultures are young.

 

I just don't like to see it exaggerated to the point that it often is. There are so many great things to be seen in American and English literature, western philosophy and culture. I just keep getting visions of some redneck living in a trailer park with his Chinese wife, and the horrible and shallow vision of America that must come from that.

 

Just wish we could take joy and pride in both, and pass it on to your kids as something to be proud of and appreciate on both sides, you know?

 

 

 

 

there are many great things in both cultures to embrace. just need open mind right.

 

 

But have too say i will never like mcdonalds burgers , yuk

yes.. I much prefer fish eyes, pig stomach and ears, duck brain, and beef tongue... Oh... and donkey meat is to die for on a cold northern morning Oops..left out the dog meat...

Edited January 29, 2009 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)