P O L Y G A M Y

[Dennis143]

On Wednesday nights I assist our Church¡¯s Intercultural Pastor, Mary Li, with ESL/Bible Study for Chinese.

 

Last night¡¯s lesson was the story of Laban, his two daughters Leah and Rachel and of Jacob. The story tells how Jacob stays with Laban for a month and how Jacob wants to marry beautiful Rachel, the youngest of Laban¡¯s two daughters. It is agreed that Jacob will work for Laban for seven years to earn the right to marry Rachel. After seven years the wedding takes place, but to Jacob¡¯s surprise in the morning he finds not Rachel but Leah in his bed. Jacob protests to Laban where it is agreed that after one week Jacob would also marry Rachel. Thus, Jacob becomes husband to both daughters.

 

Moral to the story¡­? Mary looks at me for an answer or suggestion. I am at a loss, I tell her. I have not a clue as to what is God¡¯s law about this subject or where it is written that polygamy is a sin. I wasn¡¯t much help to her. I¡¯m not sure what the class thought about it. I made some cracks about er nai, san nai, si nai, wu nai¡­how poor Jacob would end up with two angry women instead of just one¡­and how Jacob should thank God that Laban only had two daughters¡­ yuk, yuk, yuk

 

But, IS there a moral to the story, I wonder? I decided to do some searches¡­

 

I found this article quite poignant and interesting:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/colum...03-turley_x.htm

 

For polygamists, it is simply a matter of unequal treatment under the law.

 

Individuals have a recognized constitutional right to engage in any form of consensual sexual relationship with any number of partners. Thus, a person can live with multiple partners and even sire children from different partners so long as they do not marry. However, when that same person accepts a legal commitment for those partners "as a spouse," we jail them.

 

Likewise, someone such as singer Britney Spears can have multiple husbands so long as they are consecutive, not concurrent. Thus, Spears can marry and divorce men in quick succession and become the maven of tabloid covers. Yet if she marries two of the men for life, she will become the matron of a state prison.

 

So, I come here to my Candle brethren and sistren to help me. Here are my questions:

 

1. Where does the Bible state that polygamy is a sin?

2. What are the valid reasons and basis for laws against polygamy today?

Edited October 25, 2008 by Dennis143 (see edit history)

[Randy W]

 

So, I come here to my Candle brethren and sistren to help me. Here are my questions:

 

1. Where does the Bible state that polygamy is a sin?

2. What are the valid reasons and basis for laws against polygamy today?

 

 

I think the legal background on polygamy falls with Brigham Young and the Church of Letter Day Saints and Utah's statehood.

Some of the prominent visitors to pioneer Utah, such as Richard Burton and Mark Twain, looked at polygamy with respectful curiosity or irreverent amusement. However, there were reformers in the eastern states who were shocked by its affront to Protestant and Victorian mores, generally overlooking the fact that biblical prophets and some earlier Protestants had practiced polygamy. In 1854 the first Republican party platform inveighed against the ¡°twin relics of barbarism¡± ¡ªslavery and polygamy¡ªand after Congress passed the Merrill anti-Bigamy Act of 1862, Abraham Lincoln signed it into law. Believing that the revelations of God took precedence over laws of man, Mormons ignored it. Yet, the political pressure against polygamy increased throughout the century. Utah was still a territory and desperately seeking statehood so it could legalize polygamy; as it happened, polygamy was one of the central reasons Utah could not obtain statehood.

 

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/essay...monpolygamy.htm

[Dennis143]

 

So, I come here to my Candle brethren and sistren to help me. Here are my questions:

 

1. Where does the Bible state that polygamy is a sin?

2. What are the valid reasons and basis for laws against polygamy today?

 

 

I think the legal background on polygamy falls with Brigham Young and the Church of Letter Day Saints and Utah's statehood.

Some of the prominent visitors to pioneer Utah, such as Richard Burton and Mark Twain, looked at polygamy with respectful curiosity or irreverent amusement. However, there were reformers in the eastern states who were shocked by its affront to Protestant and Victorian mores, generally overlooking the fact that biblical prophets and some earlier Protestants had practiced polygamy. In 1854 the first Republican party platform inveighed against the ¡°twin relics of barbarism¡± ¡ªslavery and polygamy¡ªand after Congress passed the Merrill anti-Bigamy Act of 1862, Abraham Lincoln signed it into law. Believing that the revelations of God took precedence over laws of man, Mormons ignored it. Yet, the political pressure against polygamy increased throughout the century. Utah was still a territory and desperately seeking statehood so it could legalize polygamy; as it happened, polygamy was one of the central reasons Utah could not obtain statehood.

 

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/essay...monpolygamy.htm

Yes, I read that in my search today, Randy. That's what prompted my question: 2. What are the valid reasons and basis for laws against polygamy today?

 

Toplaw - how say you, counselor?

[Guest jin979]

so you think ok woman has more than one husband/lover. yes ?

[Dennis143]

so you think ok woman has more than one husband/lover. yes ?

Please, stay on topic and keep self-rightious judgements out of it. If you don't understand the question, please restrain yourself.

 

BTW, female polygamy is called polyandry.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Dennis,

 

This is a matter than runs into deep debate between many Christians. To simplify, from a Christian perspective, there is Old Testament Law, which is referred to in Theology as legalism. Many of these laws are based in the Ten Commandments, but of course there were many other laws that the people of the Old Testament were to obey.

 

Then comes the New Testament, a new sacrament. Christians are expected to obey the laws of their land, and also submit to their leaders. All laws in the US forbid a man or woman from having more than one spouse. Christians are admonished in the book of Hebrews, Chapter 13, verse 17, to be obedient to their leaders.

 

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

 

I love the story you mentioned about Laban, so much so that my daughter's middle name is "Rachel."

 

Edited October 24, 2008 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Guest Rob & Jin]

so you think ok woman has more than one husband/lover. yes ?

Please, stay on topic and keep self-rightious judgements out of it. If you don't understand the question, please restrain yourself.

 

BTW, female polygamy is called polyandry.

 

 

maybe she was just responding to your "self rightious comments "

 

 

"I made some cracks about er nai, san nai, si nai, wu nai…how poor Jacob would end up with two angry women instead of just one…and how Jacob should thank God that Laban only had two daughters…"

 

 

Dennis you posed this as a moral question with both moral and legal answers wanted,and you intoduced Brittney spears in as a women with multiple partners, you opened the door.

 

if you want a discussion on poligamy/polyandry, how about not calling the women that do it "whores" and "angry women" unless you are going to call the men the same, maybe "johns and losers".

Edited October 24, 2008 by Rob & Jin (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Perhaps this topic would have worked on a less grumpy night.

[Dennis143]

Dennis,

 

This is a matter than runs into deep debate between many Christians. To simplify, from a Christian perspective, there is Old Testament Law, which is referred to in Theology as legalism. Many of these laws are based in the Ten Commandments, but of course there were many other laws that the people of the Old Testament were to obey.

 

Then comes the New Testament, a new sacrament. Christians are expected to obey the laws of their land, and also submit to their leaders. All laws in the US forbid a man or woman from having more than one spouse. Christians are admonished in the book of Hebrews, Chapter 13, verse 17, to be obedient to their leaders.

 

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

 

I love the story you mentioned about Laban, so much so that my daughter's middle name is "Rachel."

 

hmmm...now we're getting somewhere...I think

 

So, what you are saying is that, although there may not be scripture that directly gives a commandment against mutiple wives, because it is the law one must simply obey?

 

If that's the best there is, I'll give that a shot at an explanation to the class next week.

 

Anyone else? Anyone... anyone...

Edited October 24, 2008 by Dennis143 (see edit history)

[Guest Mike and Lily]

so you think ok woman has more than one husband/lover. yes ?

Please, stay on topic and keep self-rightious judgements out of it. If you don't understand the question, please restrain yourself.

 

BTW, female polygamy is called polyandry.

 

 

maybe she was just responding to your "self rightious comments "

 

 

"I made some cracks about er nai, san nai, si nai, wu nai¡­how poor Jacob would end up with two angry women instead of just one¡­and how Jacob should thank God that Laban only had two daughters¡­"

 

 

Dennis you posed this as a moral question with both moral and legal answers wanted,and you intoduced Brittney spears in as a women with multiple partners, you opened the door.

 

if you want a discussion on poligamy/polyandry, how about not calling the women that do it "whores" and "angry women" unless you are going to call the men the same, maybe "johns and losers".

 

He certainly doesn't want to give women and men equal status in the proposal of this topic. Many would say this constitutes "sexism".

[Guest Rob & Jin]

Dennis,

 

This is a matter than runs into deep debate between many Christians. To simplify, from a Christian perspective, there is Old Testament Law, which is referred to in Theology as legalism. Many of these laws are based in the Ten Commandments, but of course there were many other laws that the people of the Old Testament were to obey.

 

Then comes the New Testament, a new sacrament. Christians are expected to obey the laws of their land, and also submit to their leaders. All laws in the US forbid a man or woman from having more than one spouse. Christians are admonished in the book of Hebrews, Chapter 13, verse 17, to be obedient to their leaders.

 

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

 

I love the story you mentioned about Laban, so much so that my daughter's middle name is "Rachel."

 

hmmm...now we're getting somewhere...I think

 

So, what you are saying is that, although there may not be scripture that directly gives a commandment against mutiple wives, because it is the law one must simply obey?

 

If that's the best there is, I'll give that a shot at an explanation to the class next week.

 

Anyone else? Anyone... anyone...

 

 

 

maybe you can talk about how in chinese history the "culture" of multiple wives supressesed women and exposed them to abuse, humiliation and no legal protections.

 

just a thought.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Dennis,

 

This is a matter than runs into deep debate between many Christians. To simplify, from a Christian perspective, there is Old Testament Law, which is referred to in Theology as legalism. Many of these laws are based in the Ten Commandments, but of course there were many other laws that the people of the Old Testament were to obey.

 

Then comes the New Testament, a new sacrament. Christians are expected to obey the laws of their land, and also submit to their leaders. All laws in the US forbid a man or woman from having more than one spouse. Christians are admonished in the book of Hebrews, Chapter 13, verse 17, to be obedient to their leaders.

 

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

 

I love the story you mentioned about Laban, so much so that my daughter's middle name is "Rachel."

 

hmmm...now we're getting somewhere...I think

 

So, what you are saying is that, although there may not be scripture that directly gives a commandment against mutiple wives, because it is the law one must simply obey?

 

If that's the best there is, I'll give that a shot at an explanation to the class next week.

 

Anyone else? Anyone... anyone...

 

 

Well Dennis, yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. There is absolutely nowhere in the New Testament of the Bible that specifically states that a man should only have one wife. It was a long time ago that I studied Theology in college, and we discussed this issue at length. I remember then that it always brought a lot of input and discussion. There were lots of opinions on the topic, and people will take a variety of scriptures and try to manufacture their own view. But still, you will not find that specific writing anywhere in scripture.

[Randy W]

 

hmmm...now we're getting somewhere...I think

 

So, what you are saying is that, although there may not be scripture that directly gives a commandment against mutiple wives, because it is the law one must simply obey?

 

If that's the best there is, I'll give that a shot at an explanation to the class next week.

 

Anyone else? Anyone... anyone...

 

 

The bible is not the basis for law, except as a moral authority. In fact, the Mormons ignored the law for many years due to a belief in a higher authority directing otherwise (as I'm sure you've read)

 

These things can be argued all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary (e.g., abortion), and there be determined by majority opinion (of the court).

 

From your readings, you know that laws against bigamy came from the religious and moral climate of the early 1800's, and were more or less settled by Utah's admission to the US. You also know that bigamists tend to be discreet and are generally not prosecuted.

 

I think the bigamists (that do exist) are simply aware that it is unlikely the laws will be over-turned, either through Congress, or by the Supreme Court.

 

Similar arguments could be applied to nudity.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Randy W (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

oh.... leave Dennis alone.. he's trying to figure out a way to convince his chinese wife of a polygamous life

 

Regardless of God's law or man's law.. your going to have to deal with the practical humanism of it at some point... if two woman cannot share a kitchen, then how can they share deposits to their account...

 

If I really have to stay on-topic.... I would say that that there is a roll call of biblical figures which were polygamous.... some treated not so kindly and many who the bible seems to hold in high regards.

 

I think what is most difficult is any attempt to come out of ancient civilizations natural law of the land and try to make sense of it relative to modern day, overly legalistic societies.

 

One thing I think is true; don't try and hold the bible up as the manifesto of every last possible issue facing mankind and having the final word on it.. that was not it's intention. But the transition that Jesse mentions is critical... a new 'testament' or 'covenant' is clearly established on some level... IMO... and if moralism is going to evolve than society must too.

 

But in the beginning... we simply know that he made adam and eve... but they multiplied so quickly in the end that it's no doubt there was alot of family relations which today are strictly against the law and will land you in jail and probably killed by inmates within days, since even inmates can't cross some lines

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

hmmm...now we're getting somewhere...I think

 

So, what you are saying is that, although there may not be scripture that directly gives a commandment against mutiple wives, because it is the law one must simply obey?

 

If that's the best there is, I'll give that a shot at an explanation to the class next week.

 

Anyone else? Anyone... anyone...

 

 

The bible is not the basis for law, except as a moral authority. In fact, the Mormons ignored the law for many years due to a belief in a higher authority directing otherwise (as I'm sure you've read)

 

These things can be argued all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary (e.g., abortion), and there be determined by majority opinion (of the court).

 

From your readings, you know that laws against bigamy came from the religious and moral climate of the early 1800's, and were more or less settled by Utah's admission to the US. You also know that bigamists tend to be discreet and are generally not prosecuted.

 

I think the bigamists (that do exist) are simply aware that it is unlikely the laws will be over-turned, either through Congress, or by the Supreme Court.

 

Similar arguments could be applied to nudity.

 

Excuse me Randy, but where did you ever get the notion that the Bible is NOT the basis of law for Christians? It is absolutely considered to be the sole source of law for all believers. Sure, there are some exceptions, but these groups are considered to be outsiders by the mainstream church. The mainstream church by the way is comprised of the Catholic and Protestants, with the Protestants being broken down into the Baptists (real bible believers), the evangelicals (very heavy into spreading the word), and so on.

 

The Bible is the book by which Christians live. It is, and always was the absolute authority in that Christians believe it was literally written by the hand of God.

Edited October 24, 2008 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)