Christianity in China...

[Sebastian]

religion makes one a better person

Not necessarily, which is sorta my point.

So does this mean my wife will be required to pledge and oath "...under God..." in order to be a US Citizen?

 

Check it out - you can find the oath online - wots it say ?

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

I avoid these discussions and debates like poison ivy for the following reasons. First, as already mentioned, my knowledge is too small for me to be the final arbiter of any doctrinal dispute. Secondly, these kinds of conflicts promote discord rather than unity, and it is unity we are called to, not discord. Finally, I stay away from doctrinal fights because these sorts of disputes often put people in the position of having a choice to be "right" or to be "kind." I'll opt for kindness every time.

 

L.D. Turner 2008/All Rights Reserved

 

Indeed a topic that is often mocked by those that don't understand. I'm not a Christian, but I did once practice the faith, after getting my degree from a US Bible college. As you mentioned, there are many that are so rigid in their faith, that they fail to allow room to adjust to changing times.

Edited October 12, 2008 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Very Well Said!!!!

 

I am reminded of the movie "Oh God" in which John Denver finally meets God (George Burns) face to face. Denver says, "But why did you pick me. I'm just a produce manager. I don't even belong to the church."

 

God responds: "Neither do I."

 

Doesn't "relationship" require believing he was more than a man? Once that is done it is religion. If you say it does not, I would be curious in what the relationship is.

 

Dan I would be happy to discuss this with you in a PM if you want. I think the mods would prefer this.

I'm sure Dan knows the answer to his question and is simply more interested in how you work around his point... And you both have a point from a different angle... just as, I used to like reading Francis Shaeffer alot (world renown christian philosopher of his time)... and his son put out a tape called "Christianity as truth rather than religion"... again, another angle and this had truth in it too.

 

but the fundamental differences between east and west is not so much about whether it's truth or superstition... but the object of that truth...

[chilton747]

I have watched this thread from it's beginning and I must say that the overwhelming majority has no idea of what Christianity is really about. I can see that most here group Christianity solely as a religion. Indeed it is a religion but it is also a "relationship." That is, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ then you can't really understand Christianity to it's fullest extent. Generally speaking, religion is people doing good works and deeds to gain the favor of God, or a god. A relationship with Christ is having Christ in your heart thus good works and deeds come from the inside out.

Cuzin Roggie freely admitted that he is not a Christian but came from a Christian upbringing. I think that is the case with many here. Many people associate Christianity with a set of laws to live by therefore rendering the term "Christianity" as a set of laws within the conscience to live by. If the "law" is what we solely live by then we are in a heep of trouble. Only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can we begin to really understand what these laws are all about. It's from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Very Well Said!!!!

 

I am reminded of the movie "Oh God" in which John Denver finally meets God (George Burns) face to face. Denver says, "But why did you pick me. I'm just a produce manager. I don't even belong to the church."

 

God responds: "Neither do I."

 

Doesn't "relationship" require believing he was more than a man? Once that is done it is religion. If you say it does not, I would be curious in what the relationship is.

 

Dan I would be happy to discuss this with you in a PM if you want. I think the mods would prefer this.

I'm sure Dan knows the answer to his question and is simply more interested in how you work around his point... And you both have a point from a different angle... just as, I used to like reading Francis Shaeffer alot (world renown christian philosopher of his time)... and his son put out a tape called "Christianity as truth rather than religion"... again, another angle and this had truth in it too.

 

but the fundamental differences between east and west is not so much about whether it's truth or superstition... but the object of that truth...

 

Religion is believing..................a relationship is experiencing.

[georgeandli]

Amen, chilton747, amen. Whatever religion just do it daily. Church attendance is up but live it.

[david_dawei]

Religion is believing..................a relationship is experiencing.

I agree with the former.. but the later is a tough sell... since the relationship mentioned here is not a physical one but spiritual one... in which case, one could in principle lump all spiritual experiences as on equal ground.

 

When the relationship is a spiritual one, it is usually spoken of as on the basis of faith; Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea... in this case, the idea is a spirtual one; "a relationship is experiencing", which you have reasoned.

 

For St. Augustine, reason begins with faith/belief (his famous saying, "believe and you will understand", BTW, he took this from the book of Isaiah.).

 

So, looking at how the west and east handle these... we're still back to the fact that the fundamental difference is the object these are directed at... and the east tends to stay grounded on the humanistic level with most of this; when it goes spiritual it is not based on any transcendent thing.. but rather takes naturalism to a spiritual level;

 

A seed grows a tree grows a leaf; the seedling falls to the ground to grow another tree. What experience will we say about that seed? Do we talk this way about nature, experiencing something? No... Nature is a part of a larger whole.

 

I tend to see the eastern way to prefer to speak of it's unfolding path and the contributing balance it was a part of; to talk of the whole it balances and generates (cycle of life). This is how I see they would view mankind as well (using this one metaphor).

[Guest jin979]

so what is funny about talking about beliefs. sorry i missed the joke

[chilton747]

 

I agree with the former.. but the later is a tough sell... since the relationship mentioned here is not a physical one but spiritual one... in which case, one could in principle lump all spiritual experiences as on equal ground.

 

When the relationship is a spiritual one, it is usually spoken of as on the basis of faith; Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea... in this case, the idea is a spirtual one; "a relationship is experiencing", which you have reasoned.

 

For St. Augustine, reason begins with faith/belief (his famous saying, "believe and you will understand", BTW, he took this from the book of Isaiah.).

 

 

 

The reason the later might be a tough sell is because one can't begin to understand what they haven't experienced. My personal relationship with Christ involves many daily conversations with Him. You might say that spiritual conversations are one way since there is no audible talking from Christ. But, Christ does speak by doing things to get your attention. For example, one day I was going to work and I was full of anxiety. I was talking to Jesus and asking Him why I was feeling so much anxiety. I came upon a stop sign and then when I preceded to go, my van went dead. It started right up and I went on my way. Approx 1/2 further down the road, a car ran through a stop sign just a few seconds in front of me. If my van wouldn't have went dead then most likely I would have been t-boned by this vehicle. So, there was my answer. He was telling me not to be anxious and that He had everything under control for me.

This is one of MANY answers I get from my daily conversations with Him.

 

My transformation came in the form of a supernatural experience that was preceded by several incidents that has me wondering what was about to happen. I know what I saw, I know what I experienced. I know my personal relationship with Christ is very real. And on the scientific side, my doctor was totally amazed that my healing came in the blink of an eye. 4 years now and no medicine and no symptoms. And all of this happened in a flash one night in September of 2004.

 

Believe and you will understand............... when you really understand is when you can really believe.

[izus]

 

The reason the later might be a tough sell is because one can't begin to understand what they haven't experienced. My personal relationship with Christ involves many daily conversations with Him. You might say that spiritual conversations are one way since there is no audible talking from Christ. But, Christ does speak by doing things to get your attention. For example, one day I was going to work and I was full of anxiety. I was talking to Jesus and asking Him why I was feeling so much anxiety. I came upon a stop sign and then when I preceded to go, my van went dead. It started right up and I went on my way. Approx 1/2 further down the road, a car ran through a stop sign just a few seconds in front of me. If my van wouldn't have went dead then most likely I would have been t-boned by this vehicle. So, there was my answer. He was telling me not to be anxious and that He had everything under control for me.

This is one of MANY answers I get from my daily conversations with Him.

 

My transformation came in the form of a supernatural experience that was preceded by several incidents that has me wondering what was about to happen. I know what I saw, I know what I experienced. I know my personal relationship with Christ is very real. And on the scientific side, my doctor was totally amazed that my healing came in the blink of an eye. 4 years now and no medicine and no symptoms. And all of this happened in a flash one night in September of 2004.

 

Believe and you will understand............... when you really understand is when you can really believe.

nice Charles.

 

something that happens quite often with me is this.

 

one example, last sunday taitai and i were reading parts of the gospel about prayer, she had a few questions about it. i didnt know how to answer them. i went into my downstairs bathroom that morning after breakfast (as usuall ) and i read my daily bread book which are small devotionals for everyday of the month. anyways i opened up sundays and started to read about how to pray.

we later went to church that morning and you guessed it the message was about how to pray.

you think God was trying to tell us something.

it didnt end there...

there was other things that happened the rest of the day as well that my wife and i just looked at each other in amazement.

its a great feeling to have God talk to you

Edited October 17, 2008 by izus (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

 

I agree with the former.. but the later is a tough sell... since the relationship mentioned here is not a physical one but spiritual one... in which case, one could in principle lump all spiritual experiences as on equal ground.

 

When the relationship is a spiritual one, it is usually spoken of as on the basis of faith; Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea... in this case, the idea is a spirtual one; "a relationship is experiencing", which you have reasoned.

 

For St. Augustine, reason begins with faith/belief (his famous saying, "believe and you will understand", BTW, he took this from the book of Isaiah.).

 

 

 

The reason the later might be a tough sell is because one can't begin to understand what they haven't experienced. My personal relationship with Christ involves many daily conversations with Him. You might say that spiritual conversations are one way since there is no audible talking from Christ. But, Christ does speak by doing things to get your attention. For example, one day I was going to work and I was full of anxiety. I was talking to Jesus and asking Him why I was feeling so much anxiety. I came upon a stop sign and then when I preceded to go, my van went dead. It started right up and I went on my way. Approx 1/2 further down the road, a car ran through a stop sign just a few seconds in front of me. If my van wouldn't have went dead then most likely I would have been t-boned by this vehicle. So, there was my answer. He was telling me not to be anxious and that He had everything under control for me.

This is one of MANY answers I get from my daily conversations with Him.

 

My transformation came in the form of a supernatural experience that was preceded by several incidents that has me wondering what was about to happen. I know what I saw, I know what I experienced. I know my personal relationship with Christ is very real. And on the scientific side, my doctor was totally amazed that my healing came in the blink of an eye. 4 years now and no medicine and no symptoms. And all of this happened in a flash one night in September of 2004.

 

Believe and you will understand............... when you really understand is when you can really believe.

I'm not questioning 'your experience'... I was in very conservative christian circles for 20 years.. I know the drill...

 

My argument, which is trying to keep the topic in relation to china, is that the type of humanism they have espoused for thousands of years makes a 'spiritual experience' a hard sell...

 

The one saying I heard which summarizes my point is at the comment "thank god", a chinese person said, "you just need to thank me"... There is philosophical hurdle on some level.... not that it can't be bridged but one has to understand what they are facing.

[chilton747]

 

I agree with the former.. but the later is a tough sell... since the relationship mentioned here is not a physical one but spiritual one... in which case, one could in principle lump all spiritual experiences as on equal ground.

 

When the relationship is a spiritual one, it is usually spoken of as on the basis of faith; Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea... in this case, the idea is a spirtual one; "a relationship is experiencing", which you have reasoned.

 

For St. Augustine, reason begins with faith/belief (his famous saying, "believe and you will understand", BTW, he took this from the book of Isaiah.).

 

 

 

The reason the later might be a tough sell is because one can't begin to understand what they haven't experienced. My personal relationship with Christ involves many daily conversations with Him. You might say that spiritual conversations are one way since there is no audible talking from Christ. But, Christ does speak by doing things to get your attention. For example, one day I was going to work and I was full of anxiety. I was talking to Jesus and asking Him why I was feeling so much anxiety. I came upon a stop sign and then when I preceded to go, my van went dead. It started right up and I went on my way. Approx 1/2 further down the road, a car ran through a stop sign just a few seconds in front of me. If my van wouldn't have went dead then most likely I would have been t-boned by this vehicle. So, there was my answer. He was telling me not to be anxious and that He had everything under control for me.

This is one of MANY answers I get from my daily conversations with Him.

 

My transformation came in the form of a supernatural experience that was preceded by several incidents that has me wondering what was about to happen. I know what I saw, I know what I experienced. I know my personal relationship with Christ is very real. And on the scientific side, my doctor was totally amazed that my healing came in the blink of an eye. 4 years now and no medicine and no symptoms. And all of this happened in a flash one night in September of 2004.

 

Believe and you will understand............... when you really understand is when you can really believe.

I'm not questioning 'your experience'... I was in very conservative christian circles for 20 years.. I know the drill...

 

My argument, which is trying to keep the topic in relation to china, is that the type of humanism they have espoused for thousands of years makes a 'spiritual experience' a hard sell...

 

The one saying I heard which summarizes my point is at the comment "thank god", a chinese person said, "you just need to thank me"... There is philosophical hurdle on some level.... not that it can't be bridged but one has to understand what they are facing.

 

 

Christ is universal, as far as the east meets the west. I have met several Chinese Christians but I have not analyzed the depth of their beliefs and experiences. I think one has to separate the believers from the non-believers in China to see if their ingrained humanism philosophies of the flesh would change once they have been transformed.

[Stepbrow]

most chinese do not think religion (church) important, better just live by culture. very long history

 

I am NOT trying to push religion here Jin... I greatly respect Chinese culture...

 

My whole point is that from where I sit many Chinese could use some ethics in their dealings with others... Look how would you feel if the next time you went to the market here in the US to buy groceries you were charged double... And when you complained they said..."Well you're a foreigner"... And I know I don't have to ask how you would feel if your baby was in the hospital because of the greed of others who have no regard for anyone else...

um... I think the problem is your applying western ethics, as has been washed between your ears as how the world *should* act, and expecting that another culture which was taught a completely different ethic based on different values should possibly take it on.... At least you were trained well... that is one essential element of western [imposed] ethics!

 

Honestly... this is the problem, isn't it; expecting the world to operation as we think it should... we in the US are still wet behind the ears at how many hundred years old? compared to china of how many thousands (dare I say ten-thousand if we permit the neolitic stage). What we cannot fathom is that historical duration may create a stability we in the US cannot fathom yet;

 

Christianity is quite diametrically opposed to Chinese philosophical thought at the really high points; there are lower levels which share some common ground; but at it's core, in the former, man is evil, no good and damned from birth; for the latter he is instrinctly good, the same as nature... What happens if you impose the former thought on a culture of 10,000 years holding the latter thought?

 

You've got to understand their ethical value and basis for it... which is rooted in being a part of everything... connected to both heaven and earth. Now, the next pond ripple inward is all "things"... connected among the ten thousand things which flourish... now, the next pond ripple inward is mankind... finally until you get to a very humanistic level of "man to man" and where their responsibility is... it's much to difficult to explain completely here... but the US doesn't have the history or pragmatism in regards to dealing with this kind of ethics taught over so many years..

 

David can we get this down to a practical level and leave the "pond ripple" out of it for now...

 

Yesterday I'm in my local home store buying water softener salt. I load up my cart with 5 bags and proceed to the checkout. There the girl says "4 bags of salt?" Now what do I reply and what does the average Chinese person reply? I said, of course, being trained for all those years in ethical behavior..."No 5 bags." So I paid an extra $4 but I felt better than if I had mumbled "Yup"...

 

And what about the laowei price question??? Do you think it fair on any level to pay more for everything that doesn't have a price marked on it in China just because you are a foreigner???

 

I also note that most of those opposed to my premise have not bothered to comment in the poisoned milk thread...

 

I just wanted to talk about the Laowei price thing. That happens here too. Many of the businesses in the small towns here in Kern County, CA often charge more for "out of towners" than they do locals. The company I work for had a construction job in one of these towns that involved some cement work. I put in a patio at my place about the same time. I paid $10.00 a yard less because I was a local.

[david_dawei]

 

I agree with the former.. but the later is a tough sell... since the relationship mentioned here is not a physical one but spiritual one... in which case, one could in principle lump all spiritual experiences as on equal ground.

 

When the relationship is a spiritual one, it is usually spoken of as on the basis of faith; Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea... in this case, the idea is a spirtual one; "a relationship is experiencing", which you have reasoned.

 

For St. Augustine, reason begins with faith/belief (his famous saying, "believe and you will understand", BTW, he took this from the book of Isaiah.).

 

 

 

The reason the later might be a tough sell is because one can't begin to understand what they haven't experienced. My personal relationship with Christ involves many daily conversations with Him. You might say that spiritual conversations are one way since there is no audible talking from Christ. But, Christ does speak by doing things to get your attention. For example, one day I was going to work and I was full of anxiety. I was talking to Jesus and asking Him why I was feeling so much anxiety. I came upon a stop sign and then when I preceded to go, my van went dead. It started right up and I went on my way. Approx 1/2 further down the road, a car ran through a stop sign just a few seconds in front of me. If my van wouldn't have went dead then most likely I would have been t-boned by this vehicle. So, there was my answer. He was telling me not to be anxious and that He had everything under control for me.

This is one of MANY answers I get from my daily conversations with Him.

 

My transformation came in the form of a supernatural experience that was preceded by several incidents that has me wondering what was about to happen. I know what I saw, I know what I experienced. I know my personal relationship with Christ is very real. And on the scientific side, my doctor was totally amazed that my healing came in the blink of an eye. 4 years now and no medicine and no symptoms. And all of this happened in a flash one night in September of 2004.

 

Believe and you will understand............... when you really understand is when you can really believe.

I'm not questioning 'your experience'... I was in very conservative christian circles for 20 years.. I know the drill...

 

My argument, which is trying to keep the topic in relation to china, is that the type of humanism they have espoused for thousands of years makes a 'spiritual experience' a hard sell...

 

The one saying I heard which summarizes my point is at the comment "thank god", a chinese person said, "you just need to thank me"... There is philosophical hurdle on some level.... not that it can't be bridged but one has to understand what they are facing.

 

 

Christ is universal, as far as the east meets the west. I have met several Chinese Christians but I have not analyzed the depth of their beliefs and experiences. I think one has to separate the believers from the non-believers in China to see if their ingrained humanism philosophies of the flesh would change once they have been transformed.

um... that's a dangerous step which I was getting at... I've talked to alot of chinese who claim to be christian... but their core values of humanism have no problem residing along side some other spiritual values they find useful...

 

That IS the way of the east; to synthesize multiple beliefs without problem; that is what they have done for thousands of years without problem... which western religion is pretty much incapable of doing and creates an "we vs them" mentality. Again, your using western phrases which might not necessarily fit an eastern mold. I wouldn't get caught up in dogma since christianity at it's core has a humanistic message.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

Christ is universal, as far as the east meets the west. I have met several Chinese Christians but I have not analyzed the depth of their beliefs and experiences. I think one has to separate the believers from the non-believers in China to see if their ingrained humanism philosophies of the flesh would change once they have been transformed.

um... that's a dangerous step which I was getting at... I've talked to alot of chinese who claim to be christian... but their core values of humanism have no problem residing along side some other spiritual values they find useful...

 

That IS the way of the east; to synthesize multiple beliefs without problem; that is what they have done for thousands of years without problem... which western religion is pretty much incapable of doing and creates an "we vs them" mentality. Again, your using western phrases which might not necessarily fit an eastern mold. I wouldn't get caught up in dogma since christianity at it's core has a humanistic message.

I don't want to further contribute in steering this thread in a philosophical / theological direction, but I think it necessary to state that its never been man's role to define what is pleasing to God. Every religion on planet earth that has tried to do that, failed to succeed.

 

What may be of the "flesh" to one culture, may well be the core of their religious experience to another. The best way to convey a message, is to live your life, and resist the urge to thump your bible about.

[chilton747]

 

 

um... that's a dangerous step which I was getting at... I've talked to alot of chinese who claim to be christian... but their core values of humanism have no problem residing along side some other spiritual values they find useful...

 

That IS the way of the east; to synthesize multiple beliefs without problem; that is what they have done for thousands of years without problem... which western religion is pretty much incapable of doing and creates an "we vs them" mentality. Again, your using western phrases which might not necessarily fit an eastern mold. I wouldn't get caught up in dogma since christianity at it's core has a humanistic message.

 

I am by no means a scholar on religion. But, I can understand the things you are saying. I think your post addresses Roger's OP quite well.