Christianity in China...

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

 

Tai gui le!!

 

I don't think it a bad thing for someone in business to attempt to make the best profit possible. Isn't it written somewhere in the Christian Bible:

 

"Bad, bad says the buyer as he goes his way rejoicing."

 

 

Too expensive!!

 

I don't recall seeing this in the Bible. But I am not a Bible scholar.

 

You're right! That's what they wait to hear so they can work with you.

 

The verse can be found in:

 

Proverbs 20:14

 

You know Chilton, I picked up my bible tonight for the first time in a long time and read through Chapter 20 of Proverbs. There is a lot of wisdom not only in that chapter, but the entire book.

 

[chilton747]

 

 

Tai gui le!!

 

I don't think it a bad thing for someone in business to attempt to make the best profit possible. Isn't it written somewhere in the Christian Bible:

 

"Bad, bad says the buyer as he goes his way rejoicing."

 

 

Too expensive!!

 

I don't recall seeing this in the Bible. But I am not a Bible scholar.

 

You're right! That's what they wait to hear so they can work with you.

 

The verse can be found in:

 

Proverbs 20:14

 

You know Chilton, I picked up my bible tonight for the first time in a long time and read through Chapter 20 of Proverbs. There is a lot of wisdom not only in that chapter, but the entire book.

 

 

Thanks Jesse It seems no matter how many times I read Proverbs I can't remember it all. Proverbs is all about wisdom. I like the part where it says "Wisdom cries out loud in the streets." Solomon son of David has it together alright.

Now if Roggie doesn't get irritated at us for talking about something he wanted to dimiss.

[IllinoisDave]

 

 

Richard you have to understand that friend Jesse actually enjoys getting "cheated" in China... He admitted right here that buying things in China you never know if what you are getting will actually function the way it is supposed to... But that's okay now... All is good...Being cheated is just life in China...Get over it... And that's not even bringing up what may be in the food...

 

Roger, you seem to have been born with a gun on your hip, as that's where you like to shoot from. Nothing true with your comments at all. Who the hell "likes" to be cheated? You're a complete mystery Roger. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the growth in China. To you, unless it's socialism, or redistribution of wealth, then, it must be evil.

 

Again, my counter-point to your original point is that capitalism is NOT evil. Making money is not evil. Growth equals jobs, and that's not a bad thing. It's not always good either, which is why people should use common sense. In your case, you believe it to be the job for government to save you from making a bad deal.

 

Where exactly do you pull these ideas out of Jesse???

 

And please try to remember... this forum is The Middle Kingdom...

 

NOT The Magic Kingdom...

 

To me and my family, and to many others, it IS the Magic Kingdom, and deserving of it's name, China, Patungwo (sp), the center of the universe.

 

It's a mystery to me why you are even moderator of this forum. You don't seem to care much for China, its government, its food. You go on and on about how you want clean air, a socialistic economy, and to change all you can. What the hell man. Why would you want to come here?

 

I suggest that you PM Don and inform him that YOU should be the forum mod here and not me... That should take care of all of your issues...

Or you could go moderate this forum:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

 

Things are gettin a little testy in that Pinocchio Village thread. B)

[david_dawei]

most chinese do not think religion (church) important, better just live by culture. very long history

 

I am NOT trying to push religion here Jin... I greatly respect Chinese culture...

 

My whole point is that from where I sit many Chinese could use some ethics in their dealings with others... Look how would you feel if the next time you went to the market here in the US to buy groceries you were charged double... And when you complained they said..."Well you're a foreigner"... And I know I don't have to ask how you would feel if your baby was in the hospital because of the greed of others who have no regard for anyone else...

um... I think the problem is your applying western ethics, as has been washed between your ears as how the world *should* act, and expecting that another culture which was taught a completely different ethic based on different values should possibly take it on.... At least you were trained well... that is one essential element of western [imposed] ethics!

 

Honestly... this is the problem, isn't it; expecting the world to operation as we think it should... we in the US are still wet behind the ears at how many hundred years old? compared to china of how many thousands (dare I say ten-thousand if we permit the neolitic stage). What we cannot fathom is that historical duration may create a stability we in the US cannot fathom yet;

 

Christianity is quite diametrically opposed to Chinese philosophical thought at the really high points; there are lower levels which share some common ground; but at it's core, in the former, man is evil, no good and damned from birth; for the latter he is instrinctly good, the same as nature... What happens if you impose the former thought on a culture of 10,000 years holding the latter thought?

 

You've got to understand their ethical value and basis for it... which is rooted in being a part of everything... connected to both heaven and earth. Now, the next pond ripple inward is all "things"... connected among the ten thousand things which flourish... now, the next pond ripple inward is mankind... finally until you get to a very humanistic level of "man to man" and where their responsibility is... it's much to difficult to explain completely here... but the US doesn't have the history or pragmatism in regards to dealing with this kind of ethics taught over so many years..

 

David can we get this down to a practical level and leave the "pond ripple" out of it for now...

 

Yesterday I'm in my local home store buying water softener salt. I load up my cart with 5 bags and proceed to the checkout. There the girl says "4 bags of salt?" Now what do I reply and what does the average Chinese person reply? I said, of course, being trained for all those years in ethical behavior..."No 5 bags." So I paid an extra $4 but I felt better than if I had mumbled "Yup"...

 

And what about the laowei price question??? Do you think it fair on any level to pay more for everything that doesn't have a price marked on it in China just because you are a foreigner??? B)

 

I also note that most of those opposed to my premise have not bothered to comment in the poisoned milk thread...

Where ever we are, it's just a cultural "game" really... we tend to call it "laws" or "ethics".

 

TO answer your questions:

1. Number of bags. Let's change it to number of drinks.. I was at a sports bar the other night and apparently the bartender didn't pass basic arithmatic.. and only charged me for 1 of 3 drinks... so I paid for that one drink.

2. Price question. Again... it's part of the game... play the game and bargain down... or don't and pay higher.

[david_dawei]

So would it now be possible to just forget the religion part completely and re-focus on the question of simple ethical behavior???

since china doesn't really espouse religion, they gave it up thousands of years ago... it seems you are the one stuck on religion in china

 

Drop your idea of ethics as a thinking-thing and replace it with a doing-thing... that is a loose shift from west to east.

 

You want the chinese to be ethical, but in a western way... if you want to know chinese ethics, you need to study confucianism, buddhism, daoism, mohism, legalism, etc... but again... they have left the "isms" long behind to simple integration and distillation of "what to do" in life.

 

I might recommend studying Stoicism.. their ethics and naturalism is as close as it as come in the west.

[rogerluli]

So would it now be possible to just forget the religion part completely and re-focus on the question of simple ethical behavior???

since china doesn't really espouse religion, they gave it up thousands of years ago... it seems you are the one stuck on religion in china

 

Drop your idea of ethics as a thinking-thing and replace it with a doing-thing... that is a loose shift from west to east.

 

You want the chinese to be ethical, but in a western way... if you want to know chinese ethics, you need to study confucianism, buddhism, daoism, mohism, legalism, etc... but again... they have left the "isms" long behind to simple integration and distillation of "what to do" in life.

 

I might recommend studying Stoicism.. their ethics and naturalism is as close as it as come in the west.

 

Still David...For those who read the actual article... There are now up to 130 million Christians in China and their numbers are increasing like a Long March V taking off from Wenchang...So it seems that it is the Chinese themslves who are looking for more than "To get rich is glorious"...

[rogerluli]

most chinese do not think religion (church) important, better just live by culture. very long history

 

I am NOT trying to push religion here Jin... I greatly respect Chinese culture...

 

My whole point is that from where I sit many Chinese could use some ethics in their dealings with others... Look how would you feel if the next time you went to the market here in the US to buy groceries you were charged double... And when you complained they said..."Well you're a foreigner"... And I know I don't have to ask how you would feel if your baby was in the hospital because of the greed of others who have no regard for anyone else...

um... I think the problem is your applying western ethics, as has been washed between your ears as how the world *should* act, and expecting that another culture which was taught a completely different ethic based on different values should possibly take it on.... At least you were trained well... that is one essential element of western [imposed] ethics!

 

Honestly... this is the problem, isn't it; expecting the world to operation as we think it should... we in the US are still wet behind the ears at how many hundred years old? compared to china of how many thousands (dare I say ten-thousand if we permit the neolitic stage). What we cannot fathom is that historical duration may create a stability we in the US cannot fathom yet;

 

Christianity is quite diametrically opposed to Chinese philosophical thought at the really high points; there are lower levels which share some common ground; but at it's core, in the former, man is evil, no good and damned from birth; for the latter he is instrinctly good, the same as nature... What happens if you impose the former thought on a culture of 10,000 years holding the latter thought?

 

You've got to understand their ethical value and basis for it... which is rooted in being a part of everything... connected to both heaven and earth. Now, the next pond ripple inward is all "things"... connected among the ten thousand things which flourish... now, the next pond ripple inward is mankind... finally until you get to a very humanistic level of "man to man" and where their responsibility is... it's much to difficult to explain completely here... but the US doesn't have the history or pragmatism in regards to dealing with this kind of ethics taught over so many years..

 

David can we get this down to a practical level and leave the "pond ripple" out of it for now...

 

Yesterday I'm in my local home store buying water softener salt. I load up my cart with 5 bags and proceed to the checkout. There the girl says "4 bags of salt?" Now what do I reply and what does the average Chinese person reply? I said, of course, being trained for all those years in ethical behavior..."No 5 bags." So I paid an extra $4 but I felt better than if I had mumbled "Yup"...

 

And what about the laowei price question??? Do you think it fair on any level to pay more for everything that doesn't have a price marked on it in China just because you are a foreigner???

 

I also note that most of those opposed to my premise have not bothered to comment in the poisoned milk thread...

Where ever we are, it's just a cultural "game" really... we tend to call it "laws" or "ethics".

 

TO answer your questions:

1. Number of bags. Let's change it to number of drinks.. I was at a sports bar the other night and apparently the bartender didn't pass basic arithmatic.. and only charged me for 1 of 3 drinks... so I paid for that one drink.

2. Price question. Again... it's part of the game... play the game and bargain down... or don't and pay higher.

 

You are on the same page with my wife David...If I had pulled the 5 bags instead of 4 stunt with her there I would have gotten mop slapped into next week...

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

For those who read the actual article... There are now up to 130 million Christians in China and their numbers are increasing like a Long March V taking off from Wenchang...So it seems that it is the Chinese themslves who are looking for more than "To get rich is glorious"...

 

Watch out, the Christians are coming, the Christians are coming! Maybe they will be successful in wiping out the evil rich....

 

[Sebastian]

ShaQuaNew - yer in CHina now, yes? On the Ground in Nanjing? You gots yer cable tv installed yet?

 

There's some international channel thats 'allowed' these days, but its a rebundle out of Hong Kong - on some days, there's a broadcast of Joyce Meyers - soooooooo

would you let me know if it made it into yer cable tv system there in Nanjing?

 

Warmest Regards..

Edited October 8, 2008 by Darnell (see edit history)

[Sebastian]

I very much regret the way this thread has gone and it's my fault...

 

I had been thinking about a thread on the question of ethical behavior in China. After all the bad news of the recent past which showed a very ugly side of the "get rich" at all costs philosophy that seems to me to be too prevalent in China...I wanted to see what our members thought... Then I saw the article on Christianity in China and it seemed like a natural tie-in and place to start. Unfortunately all I did was put up a big target that no one could resist taking pot shots at...

 

So would it now be possible to just forget the religion part completely and re-focus on the question of simple ethical behavior???

 

Roger - I dunno - when I lived in GZ I did not see much application of western ethics - it was something else entirely.

 

David hit it with the list of 'isms' - but my glaring example of breakage deals solely with the theft of electronic intellectual property.

[Mick]

After reading through this thread twice now, I feel compelled to say just a few things.

 

I lived in China five years and met many, many Chinese people. Some were Christians, some were not. I found good people in both camps and bad people in both camps. However, in the Christian camp, I saw some of the bad folks get better. Didn't see that in the other camp.

 

Second, while opinions are great, it is also a good thing to do a little reading and research. I would like to recommend some reading to those who might be interested in getting a balanced view on two issues: Christianity in China and Christianity in 21st Century America. Also, the interface of religion and culture as pertaining to Christianity in America.

 

David Aikman, former Time Beijing Bureau Chief, has written an excellent book entitled, "Jesus in Beijing." I would highly recommend this book as it gives great insight into the phenomenon of Protestant growth in China.

 

As for these shores, there are two excellent books, written by Christians. They take aim at the religion itself and are more interested in Christians confronting their own problems as opposed to trying to change everyone else.

 

The first one is entitled, "I'm Fine With God; It's Christians I Can't Stand." It is written by Bruce Bickel and Stan Jantz. Great book! Very funny at times.

 

The second is entitled, "UnChristian," by a pair of authors David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. Kinnaman is a sociology research prodigy now working for the Barna Group, a Christian research firm that is highly reputable and not afraid to call a spade a spade. The book addresses the publics negative image of the faith and why it exists. It lays the blame on the shortcomings of the faith, not the least of which has been its joining at the hip with the Republican Party and the Religious Right. Both of these trends, in place since the late '70's, are now in their death throes, fortunately.

 

I think these books are well worth your time, especially if you want to have informed insight into Christianity in China and the radical changes going on within the faith in this country. As for the latter, you can also Google anything related to Brian McLaren and the Emerging Church Movement.

 

Ok, I'm done.....

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

After reading through this thread twice now, I feel compelled to say just a few things.

 

I lived in China five years and met many, many Chinese people. Some were Christians, some were not. I found good people in both camps and bad people in both camps. However, in the Christian camp, I saw some of the bad folks get better. Didn't see that in the other camp.

 

Second, while opinions are great, it is also a good thing to do a little reading and research. I would like to recommend some reading to those who might be interested in getting a balanced view on two issues: Christianity in China and Christianity in 21st Century America. Also, the interface of religion and culture as pertaining to Christianity in America.

 

David Aikman, former Time Beijing Bureau Chief, has written an excellent book entitled, "Jesus in Beijing." I would highly recommend this book as it gives great insight into the phenomenon of Protestant growth in China.

 

As for these shores, there are two excellent books, written by Christians. They take aim at the religion itself and are more interested in Christians confronting their own problems as opposed to trying to change everyone else.

 

The first one is entitled, "I'm Fine With God; It's Christians I Can't Stand." It is written by Bruce Bickel and Stan Jantz. Great book! Very funny at times.

 

The second is entitled, "UnChristian," by a pair of authors David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. Kinnaman is a sociology research prodigy now working for the Barna Group, a Christian research firm that is highly reputable and not afraid to call a spade a spade. The book addresses the publics negative image of the faith and why it exists. It lays the blame on the shortcomings of the faith, not the least of which has been its joining at the hip with the Republican Party and the Religious Right. Both of these trends, in place since the late '70's, are now in their death throes, fortunately.

 

I think these books are well worth your time, especially if you want to have informed insight into Christianity in China and the radical changes going on within the faith in this country. As for the latter, you can also Google anything related to Brian McLaren and the Emerging Church Movement.

 

Ok, I'm done.....

 

Thanks for sharing Mick. Your insight and on the ground experience with this topic are very helpful. Christians have really taken it on the chin in the last several years, some of it deserved, and much of it not. There are truly good people in the faith that see their personal relationship with God as coming first and live their lives by setting an example rather that preaching the way it should be.

[Sebastian]

ShaQuaNew - yer in CHina now, yes? On the Ground in Nanjing? You gots yer cable tv installed yet?

 

There's some international channel thats 'allowed' these days, but its a rebundle out of Hong Kong - on some days, there's a broadcast of Joyce Meyers - soooooooo

would you let me know if it made it into yer cable tv system there in Nanjing?

 

Warmest Regards..

 

Yeppers Darnell, I gots my cable installed, not out of the funky Hong Kong place, we gots dat super dream network from dem phillipino folk. We jus love Joyce Meyers, and watch her all the time. We be gitten more better every day. We plan takin up Roger's cause and whacking down the evil rich whenever we see 'em...

 

 

ShaQuaNew -

 

all kidding aside (from you?) I only had one point to make with asking you about this TV Program.

 

and it's this.

 

The Chinese Government does not censor her broadcasts. I'm happy for that.

 

I'm dead tired of all of the 'lets save china' from the Christian sects in the USA. Sure - 30 years ago, was problem. These days? Specifically after January 2000? Was ok to be openly Christian in China. China's dividing principle was, 'is ok as long as it not advocate the over-throwing of the Chinese Government'. Sure - up till 30 years ago, the 'allowed Christian dogma' in China is totally different than what it is today.

 

Right or Wrong, Christian or not, it won't matter, really - as the dividing line is solely with ethics - and ya don't have to be Christian to really be an ethical person.

 

I'm a bit sad at you, I wasn't really poking fun at anything. Including a Unca Roggie chopped drunken ass-bottle-rocket picture kinda makes me lean towards 'ShaQuaNew was not being serious'.

 

Oh Well.

 

Going further - I'm not espousing the concept of 'lets spread christianity into china' - not at all. My point really, is , that it IS allowed.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Darnell (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

 

ShaQuaNew -

 

all kidding aside (from you?) I only had one point to make with asking you about this TV Program.

 

and it's this.

 

The Chinese Government does not censor her broadcasts. I'm happy for that.

 

I'm dead tired of all of the 'lets save china' from the Christian sects in the USA. Sure - 30 years ago, was problem. These days? Specifically after January 2000? Was ok to be openly Christian in China. China's dividing principle was, 'is ok as long as it not advocate the over-throwing of the Chinese Government'. Sure - up till 30 years ago, the 'allowed Christian dogma' in China is totally different than what it is today.

 

Right or Wrong, Christian or not, it won't matter, really - as the dividing line is solely with ethics - and ya don't have to be Christian to really be an ethical person.

 

I'm a bit sad at you, I wasn't really poking fun at anything. Includin a Unca Roggie chopped drunken ass-bottle-rocket picture kinda makes me lean towards 'ShaQuaNew was not being serious'.

 

Oh Well.

 

Going further - I'm not espousing the concept of 'lets spread christianity into china' - not at all. My point really, is , that it IS allowed.

 

Darnell,

 

my apologies for misunderstanding your intention. I agree with you. China is changing quickly, and doesn't exercise the same oppression it did 30 years ago. People are much more free here today than in times past. Admittedly, there is room for improvement, but it will be done on China's terms, and not those of the West.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Darnell,

 

I just wanted to add that we do indeed get the Dream Network out of the Phillipines via satellite. This and a few other satellite options are widely available in China, and you see the satellite dishes around everywhere.

 

Yes, I've seen that not only Joyce Meyers, but several other Christian programs are regularly broadcast. In fact, there is at least one channel that has 24-hour Christian broadcast. So, it is here.