Pollution responsibilty...A shared problem...

[Guest Rob & Jin]

Of course the ugly heads of the United States bashers have reared again.

 

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase. They knew they were polluting their environment when they started making all these goods. It was their choice to do so. It is going to have to be their choice to clean it up.

 

At one time here in the US, we unabashadly dumped crap into our rivers and skys. We were making goods that were being shipped all over the world. Did we expect other countries to come here and clean up our mess. We are still polluting but it has been curtailed greatly with the onset of awareness and new technologies (and conscience). As with all people there is a learning curve that has to take place. China is twenty years behind us in their learning curve. They are learning, but like us, greed makes the lessons take a back seat for awhile. We should certainly help by offering them access to new technologies that help curb pollution. Access that they will have to pay for.

 

The only part of your argument that stands is the part about this entire process being not forced upon China. That is true. To the extent that there's no military parked offshore of China's seas and ready to assault if they don't capitulate, China has the option to stop being the world's manufacturing plant.

 

But at best, it's a misleading argument. It's like saying a 13 year old girl has a choice--and fully understands the repercussions and ramifications--of engaging in sexual activity and pregnancy. Does she have free will? Yes. Does she completely and fully understand her choice and actions? I think not. So it is with China. She had an illusion of free choice, but had no idea of the real consequences.

 

It'll be interesting to see how American's bitch--especially those on the west coast--when more of China's pollution turn up in CA. Already, some of China's pollution have already made its way across the Pacific Ocean and made it to various parts of western Canada and the western US states including CA.

 

I guess China should just tell the Americans: Tough shit. Deal with it. It's not their concern as it's not on their soil once it reaches the US.

 

China is not a 13 y/o girl , totally bogus thing to say. yes china as a nation has rushed into economic growth, but who owns these polluting companies, not the people. Western investment and their desire for very cheaply produced and higher returns is the driving force here. Ok the chinese govt does little to control it, they are paid off.

Is this new or strange, no look at the UK or the USA in the past, in regard to the effectiveness of the EPA or fedral law on worker protection and corporate accountability for polluting the enviroment and people.

Look at our govt 's refusal to sign on to the UN and G8 plans for the reduction of green house gases. I dont think we have any justification to lecture others on pollution, when its our investers and corporations world wide that are largely responsible for it.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Rob & Jin (see edit history)

[SirLancelot]

Of course the ugly heads of the United States bashers have reared again.

 

Nobody is twisting China's arm to make these goods that we purchase. They knew they were polluting their environment when they started making all these goods. It was their choice to do so. It is going to have to be their choice to clean it up.

 

At one time here in the US, we unabashadly dumped crap into our rivers and skys. We were making goods that were being shipped all over the world. Did we expect other countries to come here and clean up our mess. We are still polluting but it has been curtailed greatly with the onset of awareness and new technologies (and conscience). As with all people there is a learning curve that has to take place. China is twenty years behind us in their learning curve. They are learning, but like us, greed makes the lessons take a back seat for awhile. We should certainly help by offering them access to new technologies that help curb pollution. Access that they will have to pay for.

 

The only part of your argument that stands is the part about this entire process being not forced upon China. That is true. To the extent that there's no military parked offshore of China's seas and ready to assault if they don't capitulate, China has the option to stop being the world's manufacturing plant.

 

But at best, it's a misleading argument. It's like saying a 13 year old girl has a choice--and fully understands the repercussions and ramifications--of engaging in sexual activity and pregnancy. Does she have free will? Yes. Does she completely and fully understand her choice and actions? I think not. So it is with China. She had an illusion of free choice, but had no idea of the real consequences.

 

It'll be interesting to see how American's bitch--especially those on the west coast--when more of China's pollution turn up in CA. Already, some of China's pollution have already made its way across the Pacific Ocean and made it to various parts of western Canada and the western US states including CA.

 

I guess China should just tell the Americans: Tough shit. Deal with it. It's not their concern as it's not on their soil once it reaches the US.

 

China is not a 13 y/o girl , totally bogus thing to say. yes china as a nation has rushed into economic growth, but who owns these polluting companies, not the people. Western investment and their desire for very cheaply produced and higher returns is the driving force here. Ok the chinese govt does little to control it, they are paid off.

Is this new or strange, no look at the UK or the USA in the past, in regard to the effectiveness of the EPA or fedral law on worker protection and corporate accountability for polluting the enviroment and people.

Look at our govt 's refusal to sign on to the UN and G8 plans for the reduction of green house gases. I dont think we have any justification to lecture others on pollution, when its our investers and corporations world wide that are largely responsible for it.

 

I'm referring to China's recent rapid growth and their embrace of capitalism with Chinese characteristics. They are indeed naive, inexperienced, and couldn't understand the full ramifications of this fast paced growth, like a 13 year old and sexual activity.

 

The Chinese government isn't out to purposely fuck over all its citizens as the Western media loves to project. In actuality, the Chinese government tries quite hard to bring prosperity to the entire 1.3 billion populace, but in the process, it does tend to stamp over individual rights. And because there's not much--or any in many cases--recourse for the individual caught underneath the giant juggernaut, it does suck for some. But for the overall populace, China has done a remarkable job of transforming itself from being a very, very poor country into a rapidly developing second-world nation. This certainly couldn't have happened this quickly with democracy--just look at India as a great example of what happens to economic growth in a huge and poor developing country when you have democarcy.

 

I know it has been in vogue and continues to be in vogue to heavily criticize the Chinese "commie" government for all the evils in the world, but they simply aren't as evil as the West likes to portray or believe. They're trying their best to raise the entire nation's economic living standard. That is their goal. It's not their goal to purposely screw people over. In the process of trying to better the entire nation, they do trample on individuals but it's not purposely planned.

 

In fact, this current environmental crisis wasn't overtly planned. The Chinese government didn't set out to purposely pollute the entire nation. It was their hope to achieve the economic benefits of a rapidly developing country for the entire nation but in the process they nevertheless allowed tons of environmental damage to be done. They certainly are at fault for allowing this to continue, but it wasn't their intent to have this happen and thus why they're indeed a "13 year old" in this regard.

 

They can do better, and they should do better to protect its own citizens. I expect China will toughen its stance on the environment. The Chinese knows the US isn't going to bail them out in any way so they'll have to deal with the cleanup themselves.

 

The best thing about an authoritarian government--as opposed to a democratic government--is that when they actually decided on some course of action, they'll very quickly implement it. In a democracy, the entire nation is mired in a quagmire of perpetual debate with no solution or action in sight--the illegal immigration debate is a perfect example in the US. We all admit or know that illegal immigration is wrong and yet we can't do a thing about it. Why? Because of "democracy".

Edited October 24, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Thomas Promise]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

[Gordon]

China has some of the brightest scholars and scientists in the world. How can you say they are like 13 year old girls. That is laughable They knew what they were doing from the git.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Gordon (see edit history)

[Gordon]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

That's right Thomas!!!! You go boy!

[SirLancelot]

China has some of the brightest scholars and scientists in the world. How can you say they are like 13 year old girls. That is laughable They knew what they were doing from the git.

 

My impression is that you don't understand China at all. I suspect you've never read any books on China either.

 

China hardly knew a thing about the capitalistic west when it first opened up in the modern era. To this day, many of the state own companies still can't compete at all if their state support were pulled. To expect China to be perfect within 25 years when it took the US over 100 years to be where it's at now is truly the laughable assertion. They knew as much what they were getting themselves into when they opened up and started rapidly industrializing as the US knew about the consequences of the Iraqi war at the beginning of the invasion.

[SirLancelot]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

That's right Thomas!!!! You go boy!

 

American democracy took a long time to develop. Only 50 years ago we had segregation as law. Democracy itself is not a solve all for all problems. Women didn't have the right to vote in the beginning of the 20th century and that was under American Democracy.

 

The Chinese Exclusion Act passed in 1882 and it wasn't repealed until 1943. That was also under American Democracy.

 

Give China 50-100 years and then see where she's at. And remember that China is prospering, industrializing and laying the foundations under its current system. I'm sure when it eventually changes over to democracy, the champions of democracy will claim all the credit, but remember that China economically prospered under its current system and is now laying all the infrastructure for future success, something that India is finding next to impossible to do under "democracy".

[david_dawei]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

That's right Thomas!!!! You go boy!

I took it as a joke... but that's just me and all the other's who don't buy into what they are feed...

[warpedbored]

This is an interesting thread. Let's keep it that way and leave American politics out of it. Chinese politics is fair game.

[LeeFisher3]

Yes in a way it is Lee...BUT...

 

Pollution is a global problem...

 

The US and the other developed Western powers have benefited greatly by being able to buy products produced by cheap labor in the undeveloped world...

 

Isn't it only fair for those developed nations to now LEAD the way in reducing pollution on a global scale???

I agree the more developed nations should lead the way.

 

I do have an issue with the more developed nations being held responsible for pollution created in other countries. We can try to help them understand, but turning the remainder of the world into a pollution welfare state is more than I can accept as our responsibility.

 

Well Lee we AIN'T leading...we're running the other way as far as I can see...

There is the thought that the US is not leading in the fight on pollution, but others view it as the US is avoiding being scammed.

 

The difficulty comes when the world wide agreements set standards on the US to meet, but grant waivers to developing nations.

 

As these standards and waivers are agreed to by committee and decided by the majority, who happen to be 3rd world developing nations a major imbalance appears and the developed nations are being told we need to bite the bullet, but everyone else gets a pass for the distant future. If the balance was equal across the board for all countries the US might take part.

 

But this takes us away from the topic of the US being responsible for the resolving the pollution in China.

[Gordon]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

That's right Thomas!!!! You go boy!

I took it as a joke... but that's just me and all the other's who don't buy into what they are feed...

That's just you all right

[Gordon]

China has some of the brightest scholars and scientists in the world. How can you say they are like 13 year old girls. That is laughable They knew what they were doing from the git.

 

My impression is that you don't understand China at all. I suspect you've never read any books on China either.

 

China hardly knew a thing about the capitalistic west when it first opened up in the modern era. To this day, many of the state own companies still can't compete at all if their state support were pulled. To expect China to be perfect within 25 years when it took the US over 100 years to be where it's at now is truly the laughable assertion. They knew as much what they were getting themselves into when they opened up and started rapidly industrializing as the US knew about the consequences of the Iraqi war at the beginning of the invasion.

My impression is that you may be book learned but not very practical in your thinking. What does knowing about capitalism have to do with knowing if you are polluting or not.

 

I have never said that China should be or can be perfect. I have cited on this thread at least twice that China is on a learning curve just like everybody else. And to compare war with pollution is really, well I won't say it. But to think that they didn't know they were polluting is absurd. This is the subject we were talking about.

 

There our companies in America that survive on subsidies also so I don't understand where you come off acting like I said something different in reference to China. Let's not try to put words in my mouth that were never there, please.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Gordon (see edit history)

[Thomas Promise]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

That's right Thomas!!!! You go boy!

Thank You Gordon. Here is a great play.

 

mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/library/open/features/monday_flag_350.wmv?media_type=wms&av_type=video&event_pk=486348&product=gen_video

[IllinoisDave]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

A bit of an overstatement to say the least!

[Thomas Promise]

I like the democracy we have. So does the whole world.

A bit of an overstatement to say the least!

You should be very happy that we have a democracy here in the USA along with freedom of speech. If we didn't you would have never able to write this response. God Bless America.