Losing face

[chilton747]

I just wanted to put this discussion in its proper place. I would really like to hear others experiences with this. My first experience with this was when I first met my SO. I had noticed that she had scars on her head. When I asked her about this, she changed the subject. Later on she told me the truth and her reasoning for not telling me at first was because it was not proper for her to speak bad about her father. I am the very first person she has shared the turbulent times of her life with. I can tell that it has been a great relief for her to get this off her chest. We have had many discussions about losing face. I hope some day to be able to convince her that we all make mistakes in life and we all have bad things happen. The very persons that judge us about our mistakes have issues of their own.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

I just wanted to put this discussion in its proper place. I would really like to hear others experiences with this. My first experience with this was when I first met my SO. I had noticed that she had scars on her head. When I asked her about this, she changed the subject. Later on she told me the truth and her reasoning for not telling me at first was because it was not proper for her to speak bad about her father. I am the very first person she has shared the turbulent times of her life with. I can tell that it has been a great relief for her to get this off her chest. We have had many discussions about losing face. I hope some day to be able to convince her that we all make mistakes in life and we all have bad things happen. The very persons that judge us about our mistakes have issues of their own.

 

very true

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

A good topic. Losing face is indeed an issue in China. It's something which is becoming more and more unfamiliar to Americans as there is virtually nothing in American society that would be considered shameful. In America, we use the word "perception" meaning it doesn't really matter what we might think about something, what matters is what other "perceive" to be. That is something that many corporations attempt to force-feed their employees. Trouble is, most American employees could give a rip about what others think.

 

Most of the Chinese I've talked to understand the importance of not letting others perceptions about them rule their lives, as doing so, will likely impact their self-confidence in a negative way.

 

This face thing brings to memory an excellent article written by some of my colleagues about written and verbal communication in China. This was a large contingent of American University professers went on a misson for a few years in China. The objective was to research how Chinese communicate one with another. I won't bore you with the details of the article, except one point: that was the inherent inability for most Chinese to utter the word "NO," especially in the work place and with casual acquaintances. For example, you may ask a Chinese couple to accompany you on an outing, but the couple doesn't really want to go with you. Rather than saying NO, you may even get a direct YES, but more likely something akin to a maybe. In turn, they will not attend, and somehow Chinese people are able to figure this out and not be offended.

 

EDIT...

 

I thought it very important to add that the NO thing in no way applies to my wife and I. What does apply is at what volume the NO will come!

 

Edited September 28, 2007 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[chilton747]

I hear you on the NO volume.. Before my first visit to China I had read about the losing face issues. I had read that there was a high rate of suicides there because of this. I think that is really sad that someone would take their own life because of what others may think of them.

[SmilingAsia]

Scars on her head, it's not only a face thingie. It's deep wound in the heart, unhappy memories which hurt badly, and nobody would like to bring up this topic until she is very close to you.

[chilton747]

Scars on her head, it's not only a face thingie. It's deep wound in the heart, unhappy memories which hurt badly, and nobody would like to bring up this topic until she is very close to you.

 

Indeed you are right Eunice. She had told me that it was not good to talk bad about her father to others. After we became very close she spilled her heart out to be. I became the very first person that she ever talked to about these deep wounds. She has scars all over her body and we discussed them one by one.

One evening we were on a train going to Jiujiang from Nanchang. There were some students on the train practicing their english with me. They asked me how Haihua and I met and I told them "on the internet." Needless to say, Haihua was very upset with me as she "lost face." I told her "hey, we will never see these people again so what does it matter?" Well she didn't buy this logic so I had to wait until she cooled off.

[Rodger]

Now I have something else to think about. I never thought that my saying that my Liu Min and I met on the Internet would cause her to lose face. What would be a good way to handle this? Should I just out and out lie about how we met?

[Stone]

Now I have something else to think about. I never thought that my saying that my Liu Min and I met on the Internet would cause her to lose face. What would be a good way to handle this? Should I just out and out lie about how we met?

Just tell them that you two met by "fate" or "yuan fen" in Chinese. If they really want to dig into this, then just say something like "If I tell you the secret (of how we met), it will cause a mass exodus of beautiful Chinese women." Period.

[chilton747]

Now I have something else to think about. I never thought that my saying that my Liu Min and I met on the Internet would cause her to lose face. What would be a good way to handle this? Should I just out and out lie about how we met?

Just tell them that you two met by "fate" or "yuan fen" in Chinese. If they really want to dig into this, then just say something like "If I tell you the secret (of how we met), it will cause a mass exodus of beautiful Chinese women." Period.

 

[SmilingAsia]

Now I have something else to think about. I never thought that my saying that my Liu Min and I met on the Internet would cause her to lose face. What would be a good way to handle this? Should I just out and out lie about how we met?

We are hillybillies in JiangXi province . What's Internet? We don't have fish net cuz we have no sea. We do have spiders who are weaving nets near our roof. We call spiders network engineers and we call honey bees air hostess. Edited September 28, 2007 by SmilingAsia (see edit history)

[SmilingAsia]

She has been married to an American man for three years. He qualifies in all directions and has been to China over a dozen times.

 

Now, she is being attacked by the mother-in-law as being a "no good woman", as well as her neighbors who accuse her of 'something must be wrong with you because your husband is American'. Ying hears this as well.

She has lost and continues to lose face every day. She is talking suicide.

Still need to handle everything with reason and logic. Her husband has been to China for a dozen of times, GUZ may have been concerned "who paid for his trips" (dozen of trips flying half the world cost huge amount of money) and whether the purpose of his trips is for this lady or he is doing some business in China.

Her husband can file K3 petition again.

 

Provided she is financially independent, whatever her mother-in-law said doesn't matter.

Taking a job in another city may be a choice.

 

My folks back in my province care the same for face thingie and the face things they talk about seems nonsense to me. I never care. I only visit them once every 5 years.

[david_dawei]

I just wanted to put this discussion in its proper place. I would really like to hear others experiences with this. My first experience with this was when I first met my SO. I had noticed that she had scars on her head. When I asked her about this, she changed the subject. Later on she told me the truth and her reasoning for not telling me at first was because it was not proper for her to speak bad about her father. I am the very first person she has shared the turbulent times of her life with. I can tell that it has been a great relief for her to get this off her chest. We have had many discussions about losing face. I hope some day to be able to convince her that we all make mistakes in life and we all have bad things happen. The very persons that judge us about our mistakes have issues of their own.

There is the often quoted story of Confucius ethic, where a boy's father had stolen a sheep but the duty of the boy is to conceals this; Likewise, a parent feels the shame society imposes on the children (ie: divorce).

 

Such situational ethics are hard to resolve since it could be a different scenario where the robber should be revealed; One must always keep the context in relation to the family and society. Within the house, secrets are concealed and equally revealed.

 

If she can move on, there is not a great need for her to know that everyone makes mistakes... that's a given with humans. IMO, The issue is the string and ropes of 'duty' which bind us at times.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

I just wanted to put this discussion in its proper place. I would really like to hear others experiences with this. My first experience with this was when I first met my SO. I had noticed that she had scars on her head. When I asked her about this, she changed the subject. Later on she told me the truth and her reasoning for not telling me at first was because it was not proper for her to speak bad about her father. I am the very first person she has shared the turbulent times of her life with. I can tell that it has been a great relief for her to get this off her chest. We have had many discussions about losing face. I hope some day to be able to convince her that we all make mistakes in life and we all have bad things happen. The very persons that judge us about our mistakes have issues of their own.

There is the often quoted story of Confucius ethic, where a boy's father had stolen a sheep but the duty of the boy is to conceals this; Likewise, a parent feels the shame society imposes on the children (ie: divorce).

 

Such situational ethics are hard to resolve since it could be a different scenario where the robber should be revealed; One must always keep the context in relation to the family and society. Within the house, secrets are concealed and equally revealed.

 

If she can move on, there is not a great need for her to know that everyone makes mistakes... that's a given with humans. IMO, The issue is the string and ropes of 'duty' which bind us at times.

 

I think thats true here as well

[carl.hops]

I had read of "losing face" before I first met my SO in person, but likewise, I had no idea telling others we met on the internet would make her lose face. Compaired, I think she took it pretty well... I said something along the lines of "It doesnt matter what they think, as long as we are happy" I've explained it in many different ways how americans view it. I'm lucky enough that she not only understands but accepts that I have no shame haha.

 

We kissed in public countless times, in front of many chinese and by the time I left I think her mind has changed, yet that root is still insider her and once in a while she feels embarassed. I think after some time in the US she will atleast accept our concept of "no shame" ;-)

[Dan R]

I had read of "losing face" before I first met my SO in person, but likewise, I had no idea telling others we met on the internet would make her lose face. Compaired, I think she took it pretty well... I said something along the lines of "It doesnt matter what they think, as long as we are happy" I've explained it in many different ways how americans view it. I'm lucky enough that she not only understands but accepts that I have no shame haha.

 

We kissed in public countless times, in front of many chinese and by the time I left I think her mind has changed, yet that root is still insider her and once in a while she feels embarassed. I think after some time in the US she will atleast accept our concept of "no shame" ;-)

 

 

Because of the mixing of cultures in America it may be more a personal or family concept here rather than the deep cultural implication it is in China.

 

We also tend to move around a lot so we can shed shame easier by ending ties and starting new. New starts are what many in the past came to America for. Families often sent a black sheep to America. The actor Boris Karloff was sent off to Canada as one. Later his fame made him welcome back home.

 

It has long been a custom in America to only give people you meet your first name. Most people in other countries think this shows how friendly Americans are. Actually the custom developed as people from the Eastern cities moved west. They didn't want to give a family name that could be traced back. At the time it was customary to give family name and home city as a way to be identified.

 

We know shame but our society provides ways of shedding it or getting new starts. Traditional cultures of Asia and Europe make this difficult. In some ways we are still frontiersmen.