Sa Jiao

[David&Wendy]

Thank you A Mafan for the discussion that most American men would be clueless about before it hit them in the face.

 

Your post about Sa Jiao have been very informative.

[A Mafan]

The amazing thing to me is how you discover these concepts/beliefs/paradigms/characteristics about Chinese culture that you've posted about in your threads. It amazes me you're able to put your fingers on these qualities, let alone write about them in such analytical detail.

 

How do you go about this? Do simply observe and come to these conclusions on your own? Or are you reading about these concepts with lots of analysis in a book somewhere else? Or is your wife directly telling you all these things about Chinese culture? It's amazing to me how you find out about these things.

 

You really should write a book about all this. Chinese people intrinsically understand what you're referring to but for the Western man, I think it's almost impossible to understand without being completely immersed in the Chinese culture.

 

My sincerest wishes for a happy and long lasting marriage for you and your wife A Mafan!

[blush]I thank you, but I feel a little embarassed. To tell the truth, I'm just bumbling through, trying to figure out what works for me and hoping it might help someone else...if nothing else, just to provide an example of another relationship.

 

I have an analytical mind to begin with...but beyond that, I'm in an analytical job, and my focus is currently China and/or Taiwan. Trying to understand how Taiwan and Chinese society, politics, etc are different is easier to understand in comparison to US society, politics, etc.

Plus I have to explain what I figure out to my customers, so I have had to learn how to explain it to someone who may not have the same frame of reference.

 

I am fluent in Chinese, that helps a lot. Language channels thought, so the more you understand what the words mean, and why people use certain words, the more you can understand what and how they think.

 

And, simply put: I love my wife, and she loves me. But we've had so many problems...why? It can't just be that we don't fit, because we love each other. So the problem has to be somewhere, and it has to be fixable, and you have to understand it to fix it. So I spend lots of time thinking about me, her, what I read here, what happened in my previous relationships, what I see in books, movies, etc (which are fiction...but must have truth in them or they wouldn't be popular with wide swaths of public). Then I compare everything, looking for common points, diverging points. When I find a divergence, I look at the assumptions and the conclusions, and try to find at what point the train of thought splits. Sometimes what I find is that I was stupid, or acting on misapprehensions or avoiding anticipated pain based on my experiences. Sometimes I find that she doesn't understand what I mean/intend, so she's not reacting to me but what she thinks I am saying/doing/intending. Finding out where we went wrong usually helps me to know how to express myself better next time. Then I educate her about my heart, and then try to explore her heart so that I know what I can do to give her the feeling I want to give her.

 

I've got more stuff to talk about, plus more I'm still digesting.

Edited September 6, 2007 by A Mafan (see edit history)

[A Mafan]

A Mafan, as always, I love your posts. Extremely insightful, analytical and very useful.

 

The only thing I would add is that "Èö½¿" probably would be used more often from more pampered Chinese women vs. the land-toiling rural working kind of Chinese women. That is not to say that every women from the countryside wouldn't utilized "Èö½¿" at one point or another, but they'd utilize it much less than more pampered city girls.

 

That is my opinion anyway. Others are free to disagree.

 

Again, great post A Mafan!

 

edit: I think "Èö½¿" also implies a more "to act in a very affectionate way" but in a childlike/childish playful manner vs. a more sexually/sensually affectionate manner.

You know, it's not so much that it is "acting in a very affectionate way", because from what I've seen, it is often not affectionate, at least not the way the West considers affectionate.

 

Rather, 'sa jiao' is based on an assumption of intimacy. If she can 'sa jiao' with you, it is because she assumes you won't get angry. She assumes that you love her and will give her what she needs. It is somewhat playful, in that if you laugh and then pamper her until she feels satisfied, it will be a warm memory for you both.

 

I'd like to emphasize, too, that it's not like you need to move heaven and earth to pamper her. She just wants to see you deliberately put her and her needs first.

 

As my wife has put it (before I caught on): "You say you love me. You can't indulge the person you love most? You can't brush off a little minor complaining and just do what you should know is right? You have to make an issue of my tone of voice when I'm supposedly the love of your life?"

 

I used to beg her for a signal of love amid a display of her temper, to soften the blow. Now I realize that her temper is the actual signal of love I was looking for. It is an assumption that she is safe within my love, even including the safety to be bitchy. And if I betray that assumption by reacting in hurt or anger, it causes a bigger problem in our relationship.

 

Sure, I could say that if she loves me, she should be able to control her temper/irritation/what have you. Okay. Do I want to be right and be divorced, or do I want to learn to rise above her outward display and depend on her inner feelings of love?

 

Churchill once said: an insult is like a drink; you have to accept it for it to affect you.

That kind of applies here. Sure, the Western ideal of a happy marriage is constant respect and harmony. I don't know anyone who achieves that, and many western relationships seem to leave both sides satisfied but still somewhat discontent, often stuck in playing roles.

What I'm learning from my wife may be unique to my wife, dunno. Modern (western standard-influenced?) Chinese men have problems with dealing with the more hard forms of sajiao, too, from what I've seen. But my wife's (the Chinese woman's?) ideal of love is more open, allows her to open up her emotions and be herself, but still be safe. It demands the man be able to not sweat the small stuff, and correctly identify a temporary mood (no matter how foul) as small stuff.

 

The way I see it now, is:

My wife is an ocean of emotion. Sometimes she is placid and warm. Sometimes she is a towering tsunami. I used to get swamped by the big waves. Now I surf on top of them, unharmed, safe and dry. She is safe to be herself, and her energy is spent easily and safely, without damage to our love and relationship.

[A Mafan]

Lance, I tried to PM you, but it said you weren't accepting messages or your inbox was full.

 

[SirLancelot]

Lance, I tried to PM you, but it said you weren't accepting messages or your inbox was full.

 

 

Thanks for letting me know. I have cleared up some space now.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

This is tough stuff. Though everyone may have slightly different experiences, all of us will share these stages to some degree. Because we're dealing with China, the cultural differences are magnified, and often more difficult.

 

SQN, I'm glad you added your last part as prior to reading the very last caveat, I was thinking you're crazy to think an American moving to Australia is anything like a Chinese person moving to the USA. An American moving to a western country where the native language is English--such as the UK or Australia--has it so much easier--

 

So glad A Mafan tries to help everyone by offering to share his analysis and understanding.

 

Yes, agreed. A Mafan's post seem to be well thought out and informative.

 

Lance, I will concede that the challenges with a Western person moving to a Western country are reduced, I believe that many of the conflicts and experiences are shared. Cultural adjustment is one of the most difficult challenges we face. While some of the differences to the adjustment are unique from country to country, I believe it important to realize there is value from sharing experiences with all people and cultures. In doing so, we will find that we are not really as unique as we think.

[Joanne]

I am very tempted to show this thread to my husband, but I am afraid after reading the first few lines, he would ban me from CFL forever.

[Dennis143]

I am very tempted to show this thread to my husband, but I am afraid after reading the first few lines, he would ban me from CFL forever.

Just tell him to stop acting like such a pampered child, Jo.

[Joanne]

I am very tempted to show this thread to my husband, but I am afraid after reading the first few lines, he would ban me from CFL forever.

Just tell him to stop acting like such a pampered child, Jo.

I actually tried. He wanted me to give him an executive summary ( ), which I am not able to. AM's analysis is well thought out and could not be reduced. So he refused to read. Thus I lost another chance to exercise my right to Sa Jiao.

[A Mafan]

I am very tempted to show this thread to my husband, but I am afraid after reading the first few lines, he would ban me from CFL forever.

Just tell him to stop acting like such a pampered child, Jo.

I actually tried. He wanted me to give him an executive summary ( ), which I am not able to. AM's analysis is well thought out and could not be reduced. So he refused to read. Thus I lost another chance to exercise my right to Sa Jiao.

You always have that right. It's inalienable, just like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[Joanne]

I am very tempted to show this thread to my husband, but I am afraid after reading the first few lines, he would ban me from CFL forever.

Just tell him to stop acting like such a pampered child, Jo.

I actually tried. He wanted me to give him an executive summary ( ), which I am not able to. AM's analysis is well thought out and could not be reduced. So he refused to read. Thus I lost another chance to exercise my right to Sa Jiao.

You always have that right. It's inalienable, just like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Actually, it sounds pretty dangerous to me. How can I be sure that he would be patient enough to tolerate?

[A Mafan]

 

 

Actually, it sounds pretty dangerous to me. How can I be sure that he would be patient enough to tolerate?

Ask him. Then break him in gently.

 

Men need training in how to take care of a woman, methinks.

[JamesnYuHong]

The only thing I would add is that "Èö½¿" probably would be used more often from more pampered Chinese women vs. the land-toiling rural working kind of Chinese women. That is not to say that every women from the countryside wouldn't utilized "Èö½¿" at one point or another, but they'd utilize it much less than more pampered city girls.

 

I don't think that's true as much as one might think. The notion runs quite deep in the society ... it's in movies, TV dramas, etc., so I don't think it is a "rich" thing there as it would be (more so) here.

[Dennis143]

Acting like a pampered child isn't a cultural thing. Let's see now...do I know any American women who act spoiled and pampered who like to pout to get their way?

[A Mafan]

Actually, it sounds pretty dangerous to me. How can I be sure that he would be patient enough to tolerate?

Thinking about it more, I agree: it might be dangerous.

 

It comes down to trust. Does he want you to trust him with your full range of emotions? Can you trust him to ignore temporary flashstorms of mood and focus in on how much he loves you?

 

That's what you want, I know. You want to be totally accepted, even when you being a troublemaker. You want unconditional love, even when you are acting in a somewhat unlovable way. Which would truly demonstrate his love for you, right? (note to guys: it doesn't work that way in reverse, sorry) Trust again: does he trust you enough to not exploit the situation to not be afraid to love you truly unconditionally.

 

It seems like most Americans have unconditional love within socially-acceptable norms.

 

...which, of course, likely contributes to the divorce rate.

 

It's hard to say: "I love you, even if you are a bitch to me for the next 10 years, even if you cheat on me, even if you pour hot bacon grease on me while I'm asleep." But my wife wants that sort of love, because SHE knows she will never do that. It's my choice whether to trust her to never go insane on me.

 

I still feel some hesitancy, because it is dangerous; to give someone that much power in your life is scary. But I have decided to trust her to this level. I have removed all conditions to my love and commitment.

 

 

...to tell the truth, it feels good, and it makes "not sweating the small stuff" easier. We've been much happier...

Edited September 7, 2007 by A Mafan (see edit history)