Questions - Questions

[phantom1949]

Geez.... I don't know what to say.

First, to SirLancelot. Thank you for seeing that my tone is better because I never intended to insult anyone or just rant and rave. That is why I keep replying to this instead of moving on with other topics here. I don't hate anyone. I know at this point it is irrelevant, but just one more thing about HK and Shenzhen. I see what you're saying about a HK man vs. and American man. Both are perceived as well off. I guess the big difference is that HK men who already have a wife flock to Shenzhen to hook up with the many girls there who seek them out knowing they are already married. Most westerners I know are looking for their one and only. Also, I am not sure you are implying that a Chinese girl would favor a westerner over a HK guy (forgive me if I misunderstood you), but that would give us westerners too much credit. There are a couple reasons that some Chinese girls prefer to be with Asian men. One is English. Not many Chinese speak English in Shenzhen especially compared to Shanghai or Beijing. But I think I see your point comparing HK men to westerners. Usually though us westerners are there to find a marriage, HK men are there to add on another marriage.

As far as KTV girls go, sadly I've known many, but luckily not in the Biblical sense. At first I thought just like you that they were doing it because their options were limited. It was pretty eye opening for me to learn that most of those I met actually liked what they did, not for the sex, but for the money. The money they make is incredible compared to what legitimate workers make, and the hours are less, and they get to hang out with rich guys who not only pay them well but also have no problem taking them and their friends out for dinner or for fun things later. You are right when you say we don't look for wives at the KTV. The only problem is that they will never tell you that is what they do. And chances are, most westerners would have a difficult time finding out. If I trashed KTV girls, it would be for trying to hide this while courting a potential husband. Honesty is the best policy.

 

To phantom1949, I would suggest you read through my posts and try to find one spot where I specifically said your SO was no good. I did not. As a matter of fact I said it was major points in her favor that she was educated and was a CPA! I guess you didn't see that part.

I was only urging caution. Please refer to your own post of Dec 4 2006, 12:57 PM.

You mentioned your previous relationship which you thought was going so well ony to be let down. That hurts a lot. You also mentioned your other marriage to another Asian woman. I would think these two experiences would tell you that no matter how emotional things are, you should always be prudent to insure your relationship is in fact the right one. As far as your SO, she was married before. No problem. But guess what? This is not an insult to you or your SO, but this is fact: You only know one side of the story. Good or bad, you only know one side. That is truth, not an insult. I never said your SO was to blame, but then again I never said her ex was to blame either. And here is one more fact: since your SO was divorced twice, you only know one side to two stories. Then again, I am not assigning blame to anyone in any relationship, but you nor anyone here can argue that you only know one side to two stories. My point to all this is that after your previous marriage to someone from a different culture and your other relationship that you were mistaken about, is it really a bad thing to just try and find out more about your SO before making what will be a permanent commitment of your heart (and your assets). Why is it such an insult to try to find out the other sides of the story you don't know, espcially since you've been burned not once but twice? And your SO should not feel insulted if you do this either. She would want you to feel as comfortable as possible with each other. You don't do this by hiding things. Trust me, you are experienced in life enough to know if her ex is a jerk. You would probably pick that up within the first few sentences of a conversation. However, as much as anyone here cares to differ, there is always the chance, even if its slim, that this guy had some reason. Maybe you would still think he's a jerk and the reason was frivolous. But there is always the chance. I know there are many happy stories here. I hope yours ends happily too.

But don't think me rude for suggesting that you try to make sure you swing at a good pitch for a home run instead of getting strike three. It was your own concerns in that posting that even had me reply in the first place. Actually I am a bit taken back that you've done such a 180 and are so insulted after it was you who first expressed your doubts. My advice though verbose as it was,was to simply resolve those doubts by getting the facts. Doubts do not go away by ignoring them. If you have them now and ignore them, they will be back 1,5, or even 10 years from now. So, I cannot apologize for telling you to be careful.

 

As for NUWORLD, yes I agree, there are many wonderful people here and I love this site. But if you explore this site you will find that a few people here have not had good experiences. I feel bad when I read their postings. When phantom first made his posting and himself mentioned that someone told him to watch out for Beijing girls or Nanning girls etc. I wanted to say that was not right, but then I wanted to share with him and others how Chinese men rate girls. I also wanted to express that Shenzhen is a very special place with it's own unique concerns. That is why my first question only asked him about education and employment. He actually answered in a very positive way, and I said so, but everyone started piling on so much about what I said abut Shenzhen that I had to defend myself. What I stated about Shenzhen was not just personal opinion. Please read the link I posted before:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...,108014,00.html

I guess not only me, but the HK goverment, CNN, and Time magazine are all just bigoted liars.

The other part of the conversation about his SO's previous marriages raised a red flag but at no time did I say he should leave her or say she was not a good person. I did legitimately say that it would be prudent to get more info. Phantom later acted so insulted that I implied that his SO was not trustworthy. I never said that. But the fact is, he knows one side of a story. He only knows this girl online. He was burned by not one but two other girls he completely trusted. He should not be insulted about an insult that never happened. Instead if he were insulted at all it would be that I am in some way insulting his judgement. I don't know where everyone here lives. But when I do not live in China I live in NYC. All my friends are Chinese and the few American friends I have are all married to or have Chinese SOs. I have seen many happy stories. But I also have seen first hand many tragic ones. As bad as I thought one of mine was, it pales in comparison to what people I know experienced. I won't even post any of those stories because it may overshadow the good ones here. But I dont want to see anything bad repeated here. Those here who suggest phantom sit back and ignore something "small" as a temporary marriage to a westerner are not doing him any service. It would take very little effort to dispell his doubts or save him from a third bad experience.

To anyone else who doubts my motives, maybe you think I distrust Chinese. If so why am I marrying one? Why are all my friends Chinese? If you want to know the truth, the people who distrust Chinese the most are other Chinese. And here's how you can prove it:

Ask any Chinese person this question and then ask a westerner the same question:

First ask if they trust Chinese. Almost every Chinese will say yes. Then say:

"Suppose you have own a store. Your store does well. But you want to move to another city. Yet you cannot because you don't want to give up the business. Would you be willing to hire another Chinese to manage your business while you move to the other city? You could keep your business and at the same time live where you want."

100% of the Chinese I asked all said no way (and most laughed at me like I was stupid to even suggest.) . Most westerners said sure.

Anyway, good luck to everyone.

 

 

Sir:

 

You ramble on and on and on. Why shoud anyone listen to you when you do not listen to yourself.

 

You say my SO should not be upset if I check her out with her Ex. Everyone else who seems to know Chinese Culture say that the divorce is an insult to her and her family. And you want me to throw it in her face? You said ina prior post that if I want to know the truth, I should call her Ex. That is akin to calling her a liar. And you still are not enough of a man to apoligize.

 

CT, rant on all you want. I have no respect for you or what you say. You live in China, but from the little I have learned you seem to know nothing about them,Maybe you know something about cost of living, but nothing about the people.

 

I again, say you owe my SO an apology. Otherwise feel free to ignore me and find people who do not mind your retheric and insults.

 

I have no respect for you or what you say. OH and using your scale, can I have the names and addresses and phone numbers of all of your failed relationships so we here can check

YOU OUT????

 

CT, I guess it is put up or shut up time. Before you attack or degrade any more chinese ladies, can we check with your ex chinese ladies to see how they feel about you?

 

Of course it is just so we can see if your comments have any value and if we can trust what you say.

 

Get the picture yet???

 

Feel free to PM me the information or post their names and phone number here. We have friends in china so they can call your ex's tomorrow. So hurry up and provide the info.

 

Oh, I am also a NYC guy. I also had a lot of chinese friends and well as non Asian. But it is opinionated people like you what make me smile as I left there a number of years ago. You know little but profess to be some sort of expert.

 

I also think we need to go back into your past and your failed relationships to see where your coming form. Feel free to send me the info or post it here so you can be checked out. Short of that what people are telling me is your just more HOT AIR.

 

You insult people and are not smart enough to realize it.

Edited December 14, 2006 by phantom1949 (see edit history)

[SirLancelot]

ShenZhen does sound pretty bad.

 

Crime rates are skyrocketing. Although the city does not publish data on crime, The Southern Metropolitan News, one of China's most reputable newspapers, reported that there were 18,000 robberies in 2004 in Bao'an, one of six districts in Shenzhen. By comparison, in Shanghai, a city of about 18 million, there were only 2,182 reported robberies for all of 2004, according to figures compiled by the city.

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/18/new...zhen.php?page=1

 

Chinese paradise is hell for most low-level workers

 

By Howard W. French

Monday, December 18, 2006

SHENZHEN, China

 

When Zhang Feifei lost her job in this booming Chinese factory town, she was not terribly concerned. Jobs had always been plentiful in Shenzhen's red-hot economy.

 

Then Zhang, a 20-year-old migrant laborer, lost her identity card and was shocked to find that no factory would hire her without a bribe she could not afford. Desperate for money, she ended up working in a grimy, two-room massage parlor in a congested alley here, where she has sex with four or five men a day.

 

"I was terrified at first, and I was really embarrassed not even knowing how to use a condom," said the soft- spoken young woman, casting her eyes downward as she spoke. "I didn't have any choice, though. Little by little, you have to get used to it."

 

Few cities anywhere have created wealth faster than Shenzhen, which was a sleepy fishing village in the Pearl River delta, next to Hong Kong, when it was decreed a special economic zone by Deng Xiaoping in 1980. The city has since grown at an annual rate of 28 percent.

 

Shenzhen owed its enormous growth to a simple formula of cheap land, eager, compliant labor and lax environmental rules that attracted legions of foreign investors who built export-based manufacturing industries. In recent years, cities from one end of this country to the other have tried hard to emulate Shenzhen, often quite successfully.

 

Today, however, the costs of Shenzhen's phenomenal success, from environmental peril to social degradation, stare out from every corner.

 

For some people, the city has begun to look less like a model than an ominous warning of the limitations of a growth-above-all approach.

 

As the limits of the Shenzhen model have grown more and more apparent, eastern cities are increasingly trying to differentiate themselves, emphasizing better working and living conditions for factory workers or paying more attention to the environment.

 

"Some inland cities have started to provide migrants social security, including pension and other insurance," said Wang Chunguang, an expert in labor mobility at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing. "In Chengdu, in Sichuan Province, residency controls are loosening up and education for migrant children is getting more attention."

 

In cities farther west, where the race for development got off to a later start, Shenzhen is now seen as all but irrelevant: too wasteful, too polluted, too dependent on foreign capital and on the ceaseless turnover of migrant labor.

 

"This path is now a dead end," said Zhao Xiao, an economist and former adviser to the Chinese State Council. After cataloguing the city's problems, he said, "Governments can't count on the beauty of investment covering up 100 other kinds of ugliness."

 

Some, like Zhang, who are drawn to Shenzhen by the promise of $100-a- month sweatshop salaries end up being trapped here, literally too poor to leave.

 

But others come from far away and are quickly disillusioned by how little they are able to save living in mainland China's most expensive city or quickly tire of the difficult work under often abusive factory bosses and return home.

 

Although the sweatshops built Shenzhen, the problems with the Shenzhen model are not limited to its factories.

 

While the city is dependent on migrant labor to keep its factories running, onerous residency rules discourage migrants from settling in the city and make it difficult for them to attain public services, from education to health care.

 

"The government has evaded its responsibilities toward migrant workers," Jin Cheng, a member of an influential local civic forum, Interhoo, said bluntly.

 

The resulting rootlessness has fed crime of a sort little seen elsewhere in China. Gunfights, kidnappings and gang warfare are rampant, and the signs of social dislocation are everywhere.

 

Crime rates are skyrocketing. Although the city does not publish data on crime, The Southern Metropolitan News, one of China's most reputable newspapers, reported that there were 18,000 robberies in 2004 in Bao'an, one of six districts in Shenzhen. By comparison, in Shanghai, a city of about 18 million, there were only 2,182 reported robberies for all of 2004, according to figures compiled by the city.

 

Near the gates of Foxconn, a huge electronics assembly plant that is one of the city's largest employers, a half- dozen former factory workers lounged in the shade on a recent afternoon.

 

Asked if it was their day off, one of them, a 20-year-old, said that he had been fired when he developed lesions on his arms from exposure to paints and asked to switch jobs. Nowadays, he said, he and his friends survive by "beating people up for a living."

 

In addition to shakedown crews like this one, prostitution, usually thinly disguised in massage parlors but increasingly in the open, ranks as one of the city's biggest industries.

 

Migrant workers describe the city's labor market as a predatory environment filled with unscrupulous job brokers, fraudulent training courses and a multitude of other scams aimed at cheating the most disadvantaged part of the population.

 

Yu Di, a 19-year-old from Hubei Province with a junior high school education, speaks quietly and wears a look of deep discouragement. He works in a grimy watch-casing factory, loading and unloading heavy boxes from a truck 11 hours a day, 6 days a week. His salary, which includes no benefits, is about $80 a month.

 

With his pay amounting to less than his modest outlay for food and other expenses, Yu has had to borrow money from his parents and others just to survive. He would like to look for better work, but transportation and admission fees to the job fairs held in Shenzhen are out of his reach.

 

Asked about his situation during an interview in his dim and filthy dorm room, he said, "just look at my environment." Then, gesturing grimly at the narrow space crammed with 12 bunk beds consisting of bare springs covered with cardboard, he added: "The only thing I regret is not working hard in school. I came to this factory because there was no other way out."

[phantom1949]

ShenZhen does sound pretty bad.

 

Crime rates are skyrocketing. Although the city does not publish data on crime, The Southern Metropolitan News, one of China's most reputable newspapers, reported that there were 18,000 robberies in 2004 in Bao'an, one of six districts in Shenzhen. By comparison, in Shanghai, a city of about 18 million, there were only 2,182 reported robberies for all of 2004, according to figures compiled by the city.

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/18/new...zhen.php?page=1

 

Chinese paradise is hell for most low-level workers

 

By Howard W. French

Monday, December 18, 2006

SHENZHEN, China

 

When Zhang Feifei lost her job in this booming Chinese factory town, she was not terribly concerned. Jobs had always been plentiful in Shenzhen's red-hot economy.

 

Then Zhang, a 20-year-old migrant laborer, lost her identity card and was shocked to find that no factory would hire her without a bribe she could not afford. Desperate for money, she ended up working in a grimy, two-room massage parlor in a congested alley here, where she has sex with four or five men a day.

 

"I was terrified at first, and I was really embarrassed not even knowing how to use a condom," said the soft- spoken young woman, casting her eyes downward as she spoke. "I didn't have any choice, though. Little by little, you have to get used to it."

 

Few cities anywhere have created wealth faster than Shenzhen, which was a sleepy fishing village in the Pearl River delta, next to Hong Kong, when it was decreed a special economic zone by Deng Xiaoping in 1980. The city has since grown at an annual rate of 28 percent.

 

Shenzhen owed its enormous growth to a simple formula of cheap land, eager, compliant labor and lax environmental rules that attracted legions of foreign investors who built export-based manufacturing industries. In recent years, cities from one end of this country to the other have tried hard to emulate Shenzhen, often quite successfully.

 

Today, however, the costs of Shenzhen's phenomenal success, from environmental peril to social degradation, stare out from every corner.

 

For some people, the city has begun to look less like a model than an ominous warning of the limitations of a growth-above-all approach.

 

As the limits of the Shenzhen model have grown more and more apparent, eastern cities are increasingly trying to differentiate themselves, emphasizing better working and living conditions for factory workers or paying more attention to the environment.

 

"Some inland cities have started to provide migrants social security, including pension and other insurance," said Wang Chunguang, an expert in labor mobility at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing. "In Chengdu, in Sichuan Province, residency controls are loosening up and education for migrant children is getting more attention."

 

In cities farther west, where the race for development got off to a later start, Shenzhen is now seen as all but irrelevant: too wasteful, too polluted, too dependent on foreign capital and on the ceaseless turnover of migrant labor.

 

"This path is now a dead end," said Zhao Xiao, an economist and former adviser to the Chinese State Council. After cataloguing the city's problems, he said, "Governments can't count on the beauty of investment covering up 100 other kinds of ugliness."

 

Some, like Zhang, who are drawn to Shenzhen by the promise of $100-a- month sweatshop salaries end up being trapped here, literally too poor to leave.

 

But others come from far away and are quickly disillusioned by how little they are able to save living in mainland China's most expensive city or quickly tire of the difficult work under often abusive factory bosses and return home.

 

Although the sweatshops built Shenzhen, the problems with the Shenzhen model are not limited to its factories.

 

While the city is dependent on migrant labor to keep its factories running, onerous residency rules discourage migrants from settling in the city and make it difficult for them to attain public services, from education to health care.

 

"The government has evaded its responsibilities toward migrant workers," Jin Cheng, a member of an influential local civic forum, Interhoo, said bluntly.

 

The resulting rootlessness has fed crime of a sort little seen elsewhere in China. Gunfights, kidnappings and gang warfare are rampant, and the signs of social dislocation are everywhere.

 

Crime rates are skyrocketing. Although the city does not publish data on crime, The Southern Metropolitan News, one of China's most reputable newspapers, reported that there were 18,000 robberies in 2004 in Bao'an, one of six districts in Shenzhen. By comparison, in Shanghai, a city of about 18 million, there were only 2,182 reported robberies for all of 2004, according to figures compiled by the city.

 

Near the gates of Foxconn, a huge electronics assembly plant that is one of the city's largest employers, a half- dozen former factory workers lounged in the shade on a recent afternoon.

 

Asked if it was their day off, one of them, a 20-year-old, said that he had been fired when he developed lesions on his arms from exposure to paints and asked to switch jobs. Nowadays, he said, he and his friends survive by "beating people up for a living."

 

In addition to shakedown crews like this one, prostitution, usually thinly disguised in massage parlors but increasingly in the open, ranks as one of the city's biggest industries.

 

Migrant workers describe the city's labor market as a predatory environment filled with unscrupulous job brokers, fraudulent training courses and a multitude of other scams aimed at cheating the most disadvantaged part of the population.

 

Yu Di, a 19-year-old from Hubei Province with a junior high school education, speaks quietly and wears a look of deep discouragement. He works in a grimy watch-casing factory, loading and unloading heavy boxes from a truck 11 hours a day, 6 days a week. His salary, which includes no benefits, is about $80 a month.

 

With his pay amounting to less than his modest outlay for food and other expenses, Yu has had to borrow money from his parents and others just to survive. He would like to look for better work, but transportation and admission fees to the job fairs held in Shenzhen are out of his reach.

 

Asked about his situation during an interview in his dim and filthy dorm room, he said, "just look at my environment." Then, gesturing grimly at the narrow space crammed with 12 bunk beds consisting of bare springs covered with cardboard, he added: "The only thing I regret is not working hard in school. I came to this factory because there was no other way out."

 

 

I think it is all relative. Miami has such a high crime rate, that the city, posted a smiling sun on highway exits where it is safe to get off. But I thought one of the nice features of China was that it was safer there. I guess it isn't in all areas. But then, there are many places here that I would not go. Well. I guess I should get my SO out of there.......

[SirLancelot]

I think it is all relative. Miami has such a high crime rate, that the city, posted a smiling sun on highway exits where it is safe to get off. But I thought one of the nice features of China was that it was safer there. I guess it isn't in all areas. But then, there are many places here that I would not go. Well. I guess I should get my SO out of there.......

 

 

Yes, I would agree with that. It's all very relative. Crime rates in big US cities are pretty high compared to China, especially violent crimes. But petty theft, pick pocketing, and purse snatchings are very high in big and touristy Chinese cities, especially in the south (GuangZhou, and to a lesser extent ShenZhen).

 

There are indeed many places in the US that I would be afraid to wander about at night time.

[tcrocks38]

Tian And I Bought a ring in China, IT is important that she likes it

Good luck I your Quest

Todd

[phantom1949]

Tian And I Bought a ring in China, IT is important that she likes it

Good luck I your Quest

Todd

 

Congratulations!!!!!

 

You must be one happy guy and I am sure your SOis happy!!!!