Custody of Child not stated in Divorce Certificate

[tucsonjim]

While reading through FAQ's about questions to Beneficiary in the interveiw, it brought up a concern in my mind. My SO was divorced 11 years ago when the daughter was 2. The ex husband abandoned them both and has never made contact or provided any support since the divorce. However, when I look at the divorce certificate, nothing is stated about custody of the child, which I find strange. The other problem is the ex husband has moved far away and noone knows his whereabouts, in order to reach him. Who knows if he would cooperate or not if we did know where he is, since he's not exactly the most responsible person on the planet. Because of the long term abandonment by the father, my SO changed her daughters family name to her family name and had a new official birth certificate issued, plus another official document indicating the daughter had used a different name previously, the ex husband's family name. Problem is, I don't see anything that officially states that my SO has full custody of the daughter in any of the official documents she has sent me. The daughter has a passport also with the new family name. Don't know if there is a statute of limitation in China that could be used to award custody by default or not, given it has been 11 years since last contact.

 

If anyone has had similar experience with this type of situation or has knowledge or advice that could give me some options to pursue, I would greatly appreciate it. I sure don't want to get to the late stages of the process or interview and find out this is a problem. We have lots of time now, since we are very early in the process, so I would like to understand what to do now, so my SO can work on getting this fixed.

[frank1538]

Jingwen's notarial divorce certificate did not have a specific reference to custody. It simply said that her son and daughter were fostered by her. This apparently was enough for GZ, although both kids were over 18 by the time of the interview so I don't know if their age made a difference. Maybe others with more specific information can shed more light on this.

 

One thing you might consider is that the required document that will eventually be given to GZ is a notarial divorce certificate, not the actual divorce decree itself. Maybe it would be possible to "persuade" the notary to include the custody language.

[Yuanyang]

Jim, my wife's X was persuaded to sign and notarize that he consented his daughter to leave the country and live in the USA. The USA and China are both signatures of an international treaty met to cut back spousal child abductions.

[tucsonjim]

Jingwen's notarial divorce certificate did not have a specific reference to custody.  It simply said that her son and daughter were fostered by her.  This apparently was enough for GZ, although both kids were over 18 by the time of the interview so I don't know if their age made a difference.  Maybe others with more specific information can shed more light on this.

 

One thing you might consider is that the required document that will eventually be given to GZ is a notarial divorce certificate, not the actual divorce decree itself.  Maybe it would be possible to "persuade" the notary to include the custody language.

146975[/snapback]

Frank, she sent me a document that appears to me to be what I think of as a notarial affidavit of single status... basically it is a notarized statement that she was married to her ex on 10/19/90, they divorced on 6/1/94 and that she never remarried since then and that she assumes legal responsibility for the statement. The notary basically added a page certifying that she came to his office, made this statement and signed it in his presence. Nothing about the child mentioned. Is this similar in form to the notarial divorce certificate that you are referring to? This is a separate document from the actual divorce decree, which basically just says they were officially divorced on 6/1/94. If so, it seems it would be worth redoing the form and adding some words about "fostering" in it as you suggest. I assume there was no issue about your wife having full custody with just that statement in there. If so, that sounds very reasonable and a simple approach. Since her daughter now has her family name, if her ex was still involved in the child's life, he would have had a problem with the official name change, so the new name and a fostering statement in the notarial divorce certificate might work well together. Let me know if what I described is not the document you are referring to . Thanks much!

[tucsonjim]

Jim, my wife's X was persuaded to sign and notarize that he consented his daughter to leave the country and live in the USA.  The USA and China are both signatures of an international treaty met to cut back spousal child abductions.

146986[/snapback]

Bob, it would be nice if we knew where he is and could try that approach, but without knowing his whereabouts from previous employer and other contacts my SO has tried, we don't know how to locate him to see if he would sign and notarize such a statement. No worry about child abduction in this case, since he has never made any attempt to see his daughter since she was 2 yrs old. After 11 years of abandoment, I don't feel he has any parental rights, so I'm reluctant to pursue that approach much further unless we are forced to by GZ. Even then, I'm not sure how we would go about finding him in a country with over a billion people. Do you know if there are public records that can be searched to find someone across China? Thanks!

[frank1538]

Jingwen's notarial divorce certificate did not have a specific reference to custody.?It simply said that her son and daughter were fostered by her.?This apparently was enough for GZ, although both kids were over 18 by the time of the interview so I don't know if their age made a difference.?Maybe others with more specific information can shed more light on this.

 

One thing you might consider is that the required document that will eventually be given to GZ is a notarial divorce certificate, not the actual divorce decree itself.?Maybe it would be possible to "persuade" the notary to include the custody language.

146975[/snapback]

Frank, she sent me a document that appears to me to be what I think of as a notarial affidavit of single status... basically it is a notarized statement that she was married to her ex on 10/19/90, they divorced on 6/1/94 and that she never remarried since then and that she assumes legal responsibility for the statement. The notary basically added a page certifying that she came to his office, made this statement and signed it in his presence. Nothing about the child mentioned. Is this similar in form to the notarial divorce certificate that you are referring to? This is a separate document from the actual divorce decree, which basically just says they were officially divorced on 6/1/94. If so, it seems it would be worth redoing the form and adding some words about "fostering" in it as you suggest. I assume there was no issue about your wife having full custody with just that statement in there. If so, that sounds very reasonable and a simple approach. Since her daughter now has her family name, if her ex was still involved in the child's life, he would have had a problem with the official name change, so the new name and a fostering statement in the notarial divorce certificate might work well together. Let me know if what I described is not the document you are referring to . Thanks much!

146999[/snapback]

I think we're dealing with two notarial documents. The one you describe is almost identical to Jingwen's notarial single status certificate. Essentially, hers identifies her, states that she registered a marriage, was mediated a divorce and has not registered a marriage since. Like yours, her single status certificate makes no reference to the children.

 

In addition, Jingwen had a second notarial divorce certificate, stating essentially the same thing about the marriage and subsequent divorce, but instead of stating that she had not registered another marriage, it stated that her children were fostered by her.

[warpedbored]

GZ is very sensitive to custodial interference issues. Patrick and Li had some serious issues in child custody resulting in him having to pay the ex husband some money to sign off. If the ex is nowhere to be found your SO may need to go to court and have a judge issue her an affidavit granting her sole custody and stating the ex husband has no say in the matter.

[tucsonjim]

Jingwen's notarial divorce certificate did not have a specific reference to custody.?It simply said that her son and daughter were fostered by her.?This apparently was enough for GZ, although both kids were over 18 by the time of the interview so I don't know if their age made a difference.?Maybe others with more specific information can shed more light on this.

 

One thing you might consider is that the required document that will eventually be given to GZ is a notarial divorce certificate, not the actual divorce decree itself.?Maybe it would be possible to "persuade" the notary to include the custody language.

146975[/snapback]

Frank, she sent me a document that appears to me to be what I think of as a notarial affidavit of single status... basically it is a notarized statement that she was married to her ex on 10/19/90, they divorced on 6/1/94 and that she never remarried since then and that she assumes legal responsibility for the statement. The notary basically added a page certifying that she came to his office, made this statement and signed it in his presence. Nothing about the child mentioned. Is this similar in form to the notarial divorce certificate that you are referring to? This is a separate document from the actual divorce decree, which basically just says they were officially divorced on 6/1/94. If so, it seems it would be worth redoing the form and adding some words about "fostering" in it as you suggest. I assume there was no issue about your wife having full custody with just that statement in there. If so, that sounds very reasonable and a simple approach. Since her daughter now has her family name, if her ex was still involved in the child's life, he would have had a problem with the official name change, so the new name and a fostering statement in the notarial divorce certificate might work well together. Let me know if what I described is not the document you are referring to . Thanks much!

146999[/snapback]

I think we're dealing with two notarial documents. The one you describe is almost identical to Jingwen's notarial single status certificate. Essentially, hers identifies her, states that she registered a marriage, was mediated a divorce and has not registered a marriage since. Like yours, her single status certificate makes no reference to the children.

 

In addition, Jingwen had a second notarial divorce certificate, stating essentially the same thing about the marriage and subsequent divorce, but instead of stating that she had not registered another marriage, it stated that her children were fostered by her.

147002[/snapback]

Thanks much Frank. If that was sufficient proof of custody in your situation where there were two children and nothing else was requested, that sounds like a great approach to pursue. Might not work with all VO's, but sounds like it is worth a try and I'll be thinking about plan B if that doesn't work.

[tucsonjim]

GZ is very sensitive to custodial interference issues.  Patrick and Li had some serious issues in child custody resulting in him having to pay the ex husband some money to sign off.  If the ex is nowhere to be found your SO may need to go to court and have a judge issue her an affidavit granting her sole custody and stating the ex husband has no say in the matter.

147003[/snapback]

Carl, I think you have a good idea about seeing a judge to get full custody granted. I'll discuss this with my SO and see if she can pursue that since we have lots of time. I will be going back to China in late Jan and will stay 2-3 months, so if she has problems, I'll go with her to help get that done. This will be plan B for now. If it turns out to be relatively easy, it will become plan A, since there would be no doubt about custody with any VO reviewing the case if we had that document. Thanks much.

[tywy_99]

I have to side with Carl on this one. Without a decree stating full custody, it could very well cause some problems at the visa interview.

Have your SO consult an attorney. You may want to look into it too. With the mitigating circumstances involved, it may be easy to work out.

 

-good luck

[BuffaloPaul]

Our situation is similar. My ex's husband abandoned her at the birth of her daughter and my SO moved from the northwest to Hainan then Ningbo. So she spent a lot of time tracking down this guy, getting full custody in writing plus having him write a letter saying he agreed to let his daughter leave the country. So I think we have all bases covered.

 

Since I adopted several children, I know from US laws if the husband abandons the child and cannot be found, then you have a lawyer apply to have the Court terminate the fathers parental rights. The government will advertise in the paper looking for the biological father for a couple of weeks and if there is no response, terminate his rights.

 

I would not try to leave China with the documents you have now. Too many countries are concerned about child abduction.

[tucsonjim]

I have to side with Carl on this one. Without a decree stating full custody, it could very well  cause some problems at the visa interview.

Have your SO consult an attorney. You may want to look into it too. With the mitigating circumstances involved, it may be easy to work out.

 

-good luck

147015[/snapback]

Thanks Ty, good idea, I will talk to my SO and ask her to talk to an attorney instead of a judge. Not sure what attorney's are like in China, so that might be a real adventure too, but sounds like the right approach, given the situation. Probably best to bite the bullet now on this one to save trouble and time later. Hopefully it will be relatively simple to resolve.

[tucsonjim]

Our situation is similar. My ex's husband abandoned her at the birth of her daughter and my SO moved from the northwest to Hainan then Ningbo. So she spent a lot of time tracking down this guy, getting full custody in writing plus having him write a letter saying he agreed to let his daughter leave the country. So I think we have all bases covered.

 

Since I adopted several children, I know from US laws if the husband abandons the child and cannot be found, then you have a lawyer apply to have the Court terminate the fathers parental rights. The government will advertise in the paper looking for the biological father for a couple of weeks and if there is no response, terminate his rights.

 

I would not try to leave China with the documents you have now. Too many countries are concerned about child abduction.

147024[/snapback]

Paul, I agree we can't try to leave China with what we have now... which says nothing about custody of the child. I wish we could find this guy and try that approach first, but that doesn't appear very promising, so hopefully a lawyer can help us and as you said, they may want to run an ad for some period and if no response, terminate his custody rights. Thanks for your input!

[Guest Gene]

I agree with everyone here that it is important to have as much documentation as possible and we had both custody in the divorce decree and a letter from his father. If the child has a passport that is a partial indication of who has custody, because I believe China is like the US in that both parents are needed to get a child a passport, or a sworn statement that one parent is unavailable for what ever reason. I traveled to china with my son and we all traveled back together, at no point were we ever questioned, queried or required to show proof of who's child either of the boys were. During the interveiw they had her divorce decree, but the letter was not asked for either. So like I said at he begining of this get as much as you can, but only sweat small bullets if your a little shy.

[tucsonjim]

I agree with everyone here that it is important to have as much documentation as possible and we had both custody in the divorce decree and a letter from his father. If the child has a passport that is a partial indication of who has custody, because I believe China is like the US in that both parents are needed to get a child a passport, or a sworn statement that one parent is unavailable for what ever reason. I traveled to china with my son and we all traveled back together, at no point were we ever questioned, queried or required to show proof of who's child either of the boys were. During the interveiw they had her divorce decree, but the letter was not asked for either. So like I said at he begining of this get as much as you can, but only sweat small bullets if your a little shy.

147049[/snapback]

Thanks Gene, we do have her passport, birth certificate, both with her new family name and an official document of name change. Who has custody didn't seem to be a problem for my SO to get these doc's. I'll ask her if it was discussed. I was also thinking if she has a passport, there shouldn't be any problems or questions about custody, but we'll talk to a lawyer and see what it will take to get documents of custody for her.

 

Regarding sweating bullets and being shy, it's not me that I'm worried about.... trust me, I'm not shy! If I could be in the interview with her, I would be there for sure! Especially considering her English being weak. Hopefully that will be much better after the classes she is enrolled in now by 2H06 when she will go to the interveiw and hopefully get the visa's.