Ying 'n Doug

Ying and I were married in Chongqing on the 30th of April. It was one of the happiest days of my life. After Ying's K-1 Visa was refused in early February ("no bona-fide relationship") we did a lot of soul searching and shared a lot of feelings about what kind of flaming hoops we were going to have to jump through to ever be together (Thank God for Skype!) I believe our visa was refused because I had only made one trip to China. Shortly after my first trip to China I had herniated three disks in my lower spine and spent the next 14 months developing a new and highly practiced appreciation for pain. I continued to work as best I could (terrified that the visa might be refused if my income dropped!) but it was the wrong thing to do. By Jan 2009 I was almost paralyzed from the waist down. Then, on Feb 2, we got the news that Ying's visa had been denied. Those of you who've been there know the anger and frustration. Those of you who haven't probably can't really imagine it. So - we've now been accused of attempted visa fraud. It's kind of like "weapons of mass destruction" isn't it? It doesn't really matter what the facts are. If you fit the secret profile - you're GUILTY! Ying (bless her heart) helped me very much to discharge much of the anger. I asked her very bluntly about how sure she was about wanting to marry me - given that it might take years before we could finally be together without a cloud of bureaucratic mosquitoes harrassing us - and mentioning that we might even have to move to some country other than the U.S. to finally be together in peace. We're bonded for life. It doesn't matter what obstacles we have to overcome now - we'll do it. So I jumped into a program of physical therapy suggested by a Mexican doctor (my doctor here said it would not work) and by mid-April I was walking pretty well again and Ying and I planned our marriage. Armed with a generous supply of pain pills I made the trip to China. We met in Guangzhou, where we got a marriageability affidavit at GUZ. I went to the "American Citizen's Hour" to see if I could get any information that might help us. The visa officer I talked to was very courteous and empathetic, but basically could not tell me anything of immediate use and encouraged us to "keep trying" (easy for them to say!) We had the Chinese civil ceremony on April 30th and then had a lovely traditional wedding and party for family and friends on May 8th ( the Master at Ying's temple said it would be a very auspicious day for us to be married). The visa refusal has been one of the most bitter mis-treatments I've ever had at the hands of my government, but it has had the effect of bringing Ying and I much closer. Discussing our thoughts and emotions across the language barrier really motivated us to learn each other's languages. Her English (and my Chinese) improved tremendously as we struggled through that. She has been a real trooper through the whole thing. Her reaction to having my government spit in her face was forgiveness, understanding and an unwavering attitude that "we will get through this together". If I had any doubts that she was the one I would want to spend the rest of my life with, they are all gone now! I was able to spend three weeks with Ying this time. My back problem healed tremendously under her care and the care of two Chinese doctors she knows. My time with my family in Chongqing was the best medicine. Leaving was so tough. I know it is not acceptable to show unpleasant emotion in public in China, but I cried most of the way from Chongqing to Guangzhou, where I got my connecting flight back home. A Chinese woman who sat next to me on the flight tried so hard to console me, bless her heart. So now it's time to run the gauntlet again. My last experience with filing (for the K-1) was done with a lawyer and I think what I paid him was pretty much a waste of money. I didn't know about CFL then. Now that I do, I'd very much appreciate the views of you who have actually made it through this maze. CR-1 or K-3 - Which one should we apply for? I know there are some real advantages to the CR-1 (no AOS and all that nonsense and less expensive). I am most concerned about which will be shorter. We just want to live our lives together in peace. I can go to China for two weeks or so every 4 or 5 months now, but that is no way to have a family life. Also, are there any tricky ramifications now that we've been refused a K-1? The refusal letter said that is was going to be returned to USCIS with a recommendation for revocation, but we've had no further communication on that score and, of course, GUZ won't tell us anything at all. Any advice? Thanks so much in advance. If I'd only known about CFL when we started into this, I probably wouldn't be writing this today. It's time to take another whack at this tarbaby, but we'd sure like to do it right this time.

Lee, Thanks much for the post. Sounds very rational, no matter how much I don¡¯t want to hear it. I think you¡¯re hitting somewhere close to the truth. After many years of active dating had failed to produce an acceptable candidate for marriage. I decided to try other means. About three years into that, a Chinese friend suggested I try looking in China, as she said many of my views would be very compatible with those of many Chinese women. After a protracted search, I finally met my fianc¨¦e. I was engaged to Ying on my first visit to China. We¡¯d been corresponding for 7 months. I went to China to see if there really was woman like I saw in those letters. She was every bit of it. So, I figured, let¡¯s get engaged now because this process is going to take a 6 ¨C 8 months to even begin to come to a conclusion and we¡¯ll have time to get to know one another much better in that time. I filed the I-129 as soon as I got back from China. I had imagined that I¡¯d be making more trips to China to be ¡°sure¡±. As it turned out, I was injured and couldn¡¯t travel that far for a year. We kept up an almost daily conversation on Skype, but were not able to be physically together again until recently. If it were my son in the same position, I know I¡¯d be skeptical of the relationship. I hate to think of the State Department as my ¡°father¡± in all of this, but your take on what¡¯s going on is the most sensible I¡¯ve heard. I was shocked (and furious!) when Ying got white-slipped. How could they? A lot of the fog is clearing as I read your post. I was all fired up to get married immediately after we were refused. Now I see the trap in all that. We¡¯ve invited suspicion by going too fast ¨C it¡¯ll likely only get worse if we keep going fast. Now I¡¯m trying to figure out how to explain to Ying that we will not get married on this trip to China. We need to wait until the next trip, at least. I¡¯m going to hire a decent lawyer now, and I¡¯ll bet dollars to doughnuts that¡¯s what he¡¯ll recommend. We just need time to be together, to really get close. We¡¯ve never even had a difference of opinion yet I think you hit the nail right on the head, Lee. Thanks. There¡¯s no sense in beating our heads against the wall just because it feels so good when we stop. I want to spend the rest of my life with Ying.. No sense in taking the long way around, even if the short way looks long now. I hope I can make the case to Ying. If I can¡¯t, I¡¯m sure we¡¯d have worse problems down the road. It¡¯s tough to take, and I hate to admit it, but I think you put the light right on the heart of the whole thing at GUZ. Thanks, buddy. You really helped me see this whole thing a lot more clearly. I know what we have to do now. .

Thanks for the kind words, Richard and Li. Right now it means a lot. This is a hell of a tough way to get an education. I hope talking about it saves someone else the trouble. Best of everything to you and your family!

Then word that doesn't come across here is N a i v e - as in dumb as an innocent brick.

A Naïve (Dumb-Ass) Petitioner I am almost too embarrassed to post this. I can barely believe what a fool I¡¯ve been. If you identify with any of this as you read it, RUN!, do not walk, to get some professional and informed help. You will also do yourself a big favor by reading EVERYTHING on the Jan 21, 2009 post ¡° Bonafide Relationship Issues¡± on the Interview Results subforum of the Visa Process Forum right here on CFL. (Thank you so much, David!) * * * * * * * I am beginning to recover from being knocked to my knees a few days ago. On break from an assignment in Mexico, I was putting some finishing touches on our modest home ¨C and looking so forward to welcoming my fianc¨¦e to it in just a few weeks. Interview day had arrived and I could not wait to hear the happy news! The plans for the trip to San Francisco to pick Ying up were all made and friends were helping to plan the wedding. I logged in on Skype to see the excitement on Ying¡¯s face as we made plans for her trip home. As soon as her image came up on the screen, my heart stopped. Tears were streaming down her face. ¡°I am refused today!¡± she said. As soon as I could breathe again, I dissolved in tears too. We talked for hours and cried together. I was furious. How could they do this ¨C say we did not have a bona-fide relationship? We struggled for the words to share our feelings. In the last 20 months, Ying and I have struggled to learn each other¡¯s language ¨C and we¡¯ve done pretty well. We taught each other mostly on Skype, although she¡¯s taking English classes too. Our first conversations were pretty limited without the translator machine. We¡¯ve kept at it though and we¡¯re gabbing away for an hour in Chinese-English-Chinglish almost every day now. No matter where we are, we can talk if we have fast Internet connections We can speak with each other, but we¡¯ve still not learned to READ each other¡¯s language. We never imagined that would be our undoing at the interview. Over the next few days, we talked a lot. Bless her heart, Ying showed again why I am so blessed to have found her in all this wide world. My anger was almost without bounds. Over the course of a few days, she has helped me so much to discharge the anger and set about getting going on a new plan. I¡¯m much better now, even though the sting of this slap still hurts like hell. When I volunteered to go off to an unpopular war all those years ago, I thought I might get some consideration for that from Uncle Sam someday. Ha! In the beginning, I contracted a lawyer to help out with our petition but, really, all he did was help out with the filling out of the various forms and give minimal advice. He charged quite handsomely for that service, of course. In my naivet¨¦ (read ¡°dumb-ass fog¡±) I thought I was covering the bases and had it all in hand. HEADS UP #1: The price of legal counsel is no guarantee as to its quality. Research your legal help. Get references. Think you can do this on your own? God bless you. You COULD get lucky, but might very well end up like us. Petitioning for a K visa is a very long walk on a very slippery slope. Find someone who really knows what he/she is doing! I am finding out that CFL is one of the best resources I could have had ¨C if only I¡¯d known about it. I was so naïve that I thought all I had to do was obey the letter of the law, pay the fees and Uncle Sam was going to help me live my most precious dream with my love. After all, I¡¯d served my country, worked hard, paid taxes ¡®til it hurt, helped to bring American companies to international prominence and generally been a model American. Surely that should accrue some access to help with bringing my fianc¨¦ home to live. How bloody naïve. We¡¯ve put together a transcript of the interview now. We had all the required documents and more. No problem there. Ying was immediately intimidated by the VO, although I don¡¯t think I should go into the reasons for that here. Having gone over the account of the interview in great detail several times, it sounds as if some very big cultural mis-latches were involved. The bottom line is that she was terrified at the outset. HEADS UP #2: The interview is the meeting of two cultures; we need to prepare our wife or fianc¨¦ for that. I work in technology transfer all over the world. I¡¯ve am so used to preparing for inter-cultural differences in first meetings that I don¡¯t even really think about it anymore ¨C I just prepare for it as a matter of course. I was incredibly naïve not to have seen how that might apply at Ying¡¯s visa interview. She¡¯s so comfortable with me and all our Chinese friends. It just didn¡¯t occur to me. Now, your wife or fianc¨¦e may have had lots of contact with Americans and feel very comfortable with anyone, but if that¡¯s not the case - heads up! The VO asked my fianc¨¦e several perfunctory questions about me, my family, how we had met, how many times I had been to China and then she pulled out one of my letters to Ying and asked her what it said. Ying replied: ¡°I don¡¯t know. Only Doug can read it.¡± I think that is where the whole thing exploded. My fianc¨¦e is one of the most honest and guileless women I have ever met. A very endearing quality, but definitely not a good position to be coming from in an 8-minute interview that will affect the next several years of your life. She could have said ¡° My daughter and my best friend¡¯s son translate the letters for me. I cannot read English yet, but I know what each letter says when I receive it. My fianc¨¦ speaks to me in Chinese ¨C he is learning ¨C but he cannot write Chinese¡± ¨C or something to that effect. However, when presented with what looked to her like a deal-breaker, she just did not know what to do next ¨C for the 5 seconds or so she had to respond. I have seen high-flying, multi-million dollar international business deals crash right to the ground exactly like that. However, in those cases, I or someone else was able to step in to clear up the misunderstanding and get things moving again towards an enlightened resolution. Apparently, we are not allowed any such opportunity in Guangzhou. Must be covered by the directive that ¡°Everything that is not compulsory is strictly forbidden¡±. I¡¯m going there as soon as I can to try anyway. It could be a fool¡¯s errand, but I am so much in love with Ying that I could not do otherwise. Then the VO delivered her ¡°no bona-fide relationship¡± verdict. When she regained her composure, Ying tried to show her some of the other things in the heavy bag of evidences she¡¯d brought, but apparently the VO¡¯s mind was made up and she declined to look at any more evidence. . HEADS UP #3: Preparation of our wives/fianc¨¦es for the interview is critical. The interview is a life-changing event. I asked Ying to be confident and just be herself at the interview. She¡¯s so charming that I thought anyone could see her sincerity. (Have you ever met a bigger dumb-ass than me?) I am now learning that there are some immigration law firms that will help coach your wife/fianc¨¦e for this most important event even if you can¡¯t be there to help. (Considering my blind ignorance, I wouldn¡¯t have been much help even if I could have been there.) If only I had known! I was so naïve that I thought this whole process was straightforward and that the Consulate had our best interests at heart. After reading the (very lengthy) portion of the Immigration Law that deals with family visas now, I find that neither the petitioner¡¯s nor the beneficiary¡¯s best interests are mentioned even once in it. The Consulate is marching to very different orders. They are looking for abuses of the law and, you know, you can easily find evidence of what you¡¯re looking for even when it is not there. Hell, you don¡¯t even really have to find them, you can just imagine them. Remember WMD? The sad truth is that the burden of proof is on us, regardless of what the law says. And it can all be lost in a few seconds. The Byzantine twist is that we are not allowed to go to the interview to support our loved one with that proof as we would anywhere else in our lives. One more thing I¡¯ve learned. If, God forbid, you should end up in our situation, your anger/frustration/depression/disgust and a whole list of other negative emotions will likely overwhelm you. Let it pass before you move on! Get help to get it out of your blood ¨C family, friends, whatever. Raging against the machine is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It only wears you out and it annoys the pig. I am physically sick from it. I haven¡¯t received any answers from impassioned pleas for help to Congressmen and, as the first film of my naivet¨¦ seems to be falling away, I¡¯m not pinning many hopes on that as a solution. Ying and I will be together forever. The machine cannot prevent that - it can only limit some of our options temporarily. I love my country. I fought for it and have sacrificed a lot for it. It appears that the feeling is not mutual. Still a bit of bitterness left to discharge¡­ Right now, my plans are to get to China as soon as I can. (I haven¡¯t been able to travel there for almost a year ¨C herniated three disks in my back 2 months after my last trip to China. I have a brand new and very well studied understanding of pain. So happy that I¡¯ll be back with Ying and the family soon.) Then I¡¯m going to find a good immigration lawyer who can convince me he can help and do everything I can possibly imagine to try to get an appeal in Guangzhou. I know that¡¯s a long-odds deal, but ya gotta try. I¡¯m still pretty frantic. Considering marrying in China now and then moving together to Canada or Mexico together to ride out what looks like it will be a long grind. Don¡¯t even know if that¡¯s practical yet ¨C still grasping at straws. Or moving to China to teach English for a while. I have grave doubts about that though. I don¡¯t think an English teacher¡¯s income in China is going to cut it on the Affadavit of Support that I¡¯m sure will have to be filed again. My clients would likely blackball me if I left them in the lurch. Catch 22, 23, 24 ¡­ where does it end? Need to find a good immigration lawyer soon. Maybe it¡¯s not too late. ¡°We are building this plane as we fly it.¡± Anonymous I hope that this long story will help someone and that you¡¯ll never really know what we are going through. I¡¯m sure I still have a hell of a lot to learn. When I do, I¡¯ll pass it on. Thanks so much to all of you who are helping with my education here. The very best of luck to all!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! It is so encouraging to hear that, at least occasionally, there is a light at the end of this cold, dark, long tunnel.

Thanks, Byron, for the reference to Mark Ellis. I've read some of his postings on the 'Net and he sounds very knowledgable and involved in family visa issues. My case is in China (just got knocked to my knees with a K1 refusal). I've also found reference to another law office in Guangzhou that, at least, makes an excellent presentation of thier services on thier web site. It is the offices of Frederick W. Hong, with offices in several cities in Cjhina as well as the U.S. Does anyone have any experience with his firm? I'm going to China as soon as I can get there and am considering contracting Mr. Hong's firm. Even if we can't get the K1 decision reversed, we need to know how to proceed. Too late did I find out that this whole process is very much a walk on a very slippery slope. I think I was very naive. We got the old "no bona-fide relationship" slam a few days ago. I have only now recovered from "acid-heart" enough to be able to post something that doesn't sound insane. It's quite a blow when the machine shreds your dreams. However, I don't really enjoy beating my head against the wall just 'cause it feels so good when I stop. Thanks much for any information anyone will post