The Flowers of War

[dnoblett]

FWIW, I don't like Zhang Yimou that much.

 

The short explanation is that I think he goes too far in manipulating emotions, i.e., exaggerating tragedy beyond reasonable proportions. But maybe he's finally found a topic that matches his penchant for dramatics.

 

Many of the movies and serial shows you'll see in China are wrapped in emotion. Death, infidelity, hunger, poverty, what have you. This movie stuck a good balance between emotion, reality, while even adding humor from time to time. I hope it rings well with Western audiences, because as the piece you posted suggests, most of the world is unfamiliar with the brutality the Japanese inflicted on the Chinese people. Japan continues in an arrogant posture of never admitting to what was done in Nanjing by their soldiers.

I think the west is well aware of the brutality that the Japanese army inflicted during the war, just need to look at the way they treated captured soldiers, American, British, Australian, Chinese and any other aly, they were just savage. Just look at the Bataan Death March.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

 

My wife has absolutely no kindness toward Japanese.

[Mick]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" is a great book. Some of the photos are especially graphic, but they give a good impression of what went on. I also want to mention that Nanjing suffered greatly, more than many other places I suspect, but other nearby cities felt the same force of the Japanese war boot. On down the river, cities like Ma'an Shan and Wuhu were also targeted for bombing and occupation. The same sort of horrors went on there, but often you don't hear so much about it. In Anhui, Wu Wei and Chao Hu (by the big lake of the same name) also suffered. Li's family is from this area. The capital of Anhui, Hefei, (where I lived for my first year in China and where Li and I met and fell in love) has small memorial sites as well. I hope some day the Japanese admit what happened and formally apologize. True healing will be impossible until that happens.

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" is a great book. Some of the photos are especially graphic, but they give a good impression of what went on. I also want to mention that Nanjing suffered greatly, more than many other places I suspect, but other nearby cities felt the same force of the Japanese war boot. On down the river, cities like Ma'an Shan and Wuhu were also targeted for bombing and occupation. The same sort of horrors went on there, but often you don't hear so much about it. In Anhui, Wu Wei and Chao Hu (by the big lake of the same name) also suffered. Li's family is from this area. The capital of Anhui, Hefei, (where I lived for my first year in China and where Li and I met and fell in love) has small memorial sites as well. I hope some day the Japanese admit what happened and formally apologize. True healing will be impossible until that happens.

 

Very well-said Mick.

 

Merry Christmas

[tsap seui]

FWIW, I don't like Zhang Yimou that much.

 

The short explanation is that I think he goes too far in manipulating emotions, i.e., exaggerating tragedy beyond reasonable proportions. But maybe he's finally found a topic that matches his penchant for dramatics.

As individuals we all see what we want to see, in this case in a movie. I never saw what you say with his movies, the exageration, etc, but that's cool that you felt he tried to manipulate your emotions too far, etc.

 

Zhangs work captivates me with how he guides his actors to get the portrayals he envisions. I like his point of view on his characters, use of mystery, and subtle hidden meanings. As well he has a hugh following, even his peers hold him in high esteem. I've seen another favorite director, Quentin Tarantino, who when asked about Zhang in an interview just couldn't say enough good about him and how his work intrigued him with the way he portrays life through his actors, the interviewer almost had to tie ol' Quentin down ot get him off of the subject of Zhang Yimou.

 

If he's manipulative, I'll take it...I've never finished one of his movies that didn't make me saw "WOW".

 

tsap seui

 

I agree with you tsap. I'm also a Tarantino fan. Every now and then a director comes along who breaks the mold. This movie breaks through many of the cultural barriers that have long prevented the acceptance of Asian movies as anything more than a novelty. Alfred Hitchcock also had the ability to convey emotion on the screen without all the CGI and graphics used in movies today. Everything about this movie seemed real. I was never left with a feeling that too much emotion was being tossed about. All characters were successfully developed and believable.

Yep, Zhang and Tarantino make some fantastic movies. I could watch them over and over. If you've ever seen a Tarantino interview you know how he gets talking really fast and animated when talking about something or someone that impresses him. He was talking about Zhang's techniques and such, rambling off every movie he ever made, and walking around like a crazed man swinging his arms to make points as he discussed his awe of Zhang. Quentin also introduced the movie "Hero" when it came out on DVD that Zhang directed back in 2002 or so. Hero is one of my favorites, and what a cast and a half he had to work with on that movie. Certainly nothing overdone on tht movie.

 

Thanks for bringing up this movie. Hope your tendon heals up quickly. You were really lucky.

 

tsap seui

Edited December 23, 2011 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[knloregon]

"...FWIW, I don't like Zhang Yimou that much.

 

The short explanation is that I think he goes too far in manipulating emotions, i.e., exaggerating tragedy beyond reasonable proportions. But maybe he's finally found a topic that matches his penchant for dramatics..." AM

 

Sometimes yes, would certainly agree if you were discussing "Red Sorghum" (wine) ---not so much "Raise the Red Lanterns" not because I don't agree 100% with AM --- it certainly was emotionally wrought--- but I suspect its also sort of accurate in households with more than one wife... and the power struggles that naturally occur---

 

But, as the father of two daughters of China----and any members here who want to experience the flip side of the so-called neglect that the Chinese people generally have for poor children---I highly recommend "Not One Less" This movie is anything but overwrought---Mick will appreciate its incredibly slow, and understated movement (although in an absolutely gorgeous---and authentic setting) ---particularly in cultures other than the West, it takes time to make a spiritual point, and for that, patience from the viewer is required. But every time I see it, it leaves me in tears. On some days, its my favorite movie of all time, and never lower than my top five. ---in any case, you will see Zhang Yimou in an entirely different perspective after viewing "Not One Less' -- looking forward to "The Flowers of War"

[honeybun]

But, as the father of two daughters of China----and any members here who want to experience the flip side of the so-called neglect that the Chinese people generally have for poor children---I highly recommend "Not One Less" This movie is anything but overwrought---Mick will appreciate its incredibly slow, and understated movement (although in an absolutely gorgeous---and authentic setting) ---particularly in cultures other than the West, it takes time to make a spiritual point, and for that, patience from the viewer is required. But every time I see it, it leaves me in tears. On some days, its my favorite movie of all time, and never lower than my top five. ---in any case, you will see Zhang Yimou in an entirely different perspective after viewing "Not One Less' -- looking forward to "The Flowers of War"

I also LOVED "Not One Less"! Along with "Story of Qiu Ju," it's a movie that not just entertains but brilliantly sums up certain aspects of China. Did you ever have someone ask you, "What's China like?" and feel totally at a loss for where to even begin? These are two movies that somehow manage to convey the good & bad, the contradictions and culture of China, and that is just an effortless side-effect of watching.

 

Of all the many, many movies I've seen, one film moment that will forever remain vibrant in my memory is the last moment of "Qiu Ju." It's genius storytelling when you can make someone want to cry and burst out laughing in the same instant, and when the audience can still remember the effect years later.

[tsap seui]

But, as the father of two daughters of China----and any members here who want to experience the flip side of the so-called neglect that the Chinese people generally have for poor children---I highly recommend "Not One Less" This movie is anything but overwrought---Mick will appreciate its incredibly slow, and understated movement (although in an absolutely gorgeous---and authentic setting) ---particularly in cultures other than the West, it takes time to make a spiritual point, and for that, patience from the viewer is required. But every time I see it, it leaves me in tears. On some days, its my favorite movie of all time, and never lower than my top five. ---in any case, you will see Zhang Yimou in an entirely different perspective after viewing "Not One Less' -- looking forward to "The Flowers of War"

I also LOVED "Not One Less"! Along with "Story of Qiu Ju," it's a movie that not just entertains but brilliantly sums up certain aspects of China. Did you ever have someone ask you, "What's China like?" and feel totally at a loss for where to even begin? These are two movies that somehow manage to convey the good & bad, the contradictions and culture of China, and that is just an effortless side-effect of watching.

 

Of all the many, many movies I've seen, one film moment that will forever remain vibrant in my memory is the last moment of "Qiu Ju." It's genius storytelling when you can make someone want to cry and burst out laughing in the same instant, and when the audience can still remember the effect years later.

 

I agree with you both about those Zhang movies. He way of storytelling is simply genius. Often the dialog is spare and the action of his players tells the story. In Hero he had Isacc Perlman play his violin through-out the movie to explain the mood of different scenes.

His use of incredible background scenes from his pick of locations just adds to the overall effect.

 

The guy just understands story telling and stands tall among his peers. Lucky us, the movie goers, or movie on the computer watchers. We are fortunate to see his works.

 

tsap seui

[warpedbored]

I haven't seen the story of Qiu Ju. I looked it up on net flix but it's only available on DVD. I'll see if I can rent it at the video store. I have seen Not One Less and I agree it is a very good movie. Ironically my wife doesn't like these kind of films and wasn't all that impressed. Another favorite of mine which did move my wife was The Sent Down Girl. My wife also had to go work in the countryside during the cultural revolution and could relate to the story.

[knloregon]

"...I also LOVED "Not One Less"! Along with "Story of Qiu Ju," it's a movie that not just entertains but brilliantly sums up certain aspects of China. Did you ever have someone ask you, "What's China like?" and feel totally at a loss for where to even begin? These are two movies that somehow manage to convey the good & bad, the contradictions and culture of China, and that is just an effortless side-effect of watching.

 

Of all the many, many movies I've seen, one film moment that will forever remain vibrant in my memory is the last moment of "Qiu Ju." It's genius storytelling when you can make someone want to cry and burst out laughing in the same instant, and when the audience can still remember the effect years later. .."

 

Honeybun ~ This is just such a preceptive review --- among many other good reviews here at the Candle --- so a high point of sorts.

 

Like Carl, I haven't seen "Qiu Ju" but you are so preceptive to pick up on that aspect which is almost impossible to relate to most in the West--- " These are two movies that somehow manage to convey the good & bad, the contradictions and culture of China, and that is just an effortless side-effect of watching. "

 

---How do you convey that there are elements---such poverty that girls are abandoned by their birth parents? --and yet, entirely without any material resources----those called to duty to save the entire class? Its so hard to explain--- (10 plus year ago.) yes, Chinese abandoned their daughters --while at same time---yes Chinese love their children, and will do considerably more than in the West to protect them, and keep them in the fold of society. Is it an impossible dichotomy? By western standards, of course.

[A Mafan]

"Qiu Ju" is one of the few movies by Zhang Yimou where he doesn't over-do it. In fact, that movie is very good, as is "To Live".

 

But I think he overdoes it in:

Ju Dou

Raise the Red Lanterns

Red Sorghum

Happy Times (which is supposed to be a comedy)

Hero

Shanghai Triad

 

In most of his movies, his protagonist ends up insane or dying/giving up in utter despair. That's really not what I enjoy in a movie.

 

One thing, however: Zhang Yimou's films are always visually stunning.

 

There are just other directors I prefer more, especially Feng Xiaogang, but also Chen Kaige, Li Ang, Hao Ning (mainly for "Crazy Stone"), Tsui Hark, and even Clarence Fok Yiu-leung.

 

Feng Xiaogang directed:

World Without Thieves

CellPhone

Big Shot's Funeral

The Dream Factory

Bu Jian Bu San

Tang Shan

 

Those are all great movies, in my opinion.

 

The combination of Johnnie To and Ka Fai-Wai on the Andy Lau & Sammi Cheng Spring Festival movies ("Love on a diet", "Needing You" and "Long Juan Feng") and "My Left Eye Sees Ghosts" are great.

 

Johnnie To's "Running Out of Time" is one of the best movies I've ever seen.

 

But if you watched all these movies, you'll see that I tend to like a little comedy injected into serious subjects, and a tendency to more realistic situations (rather than Zhang Yimou's tendency to make his plots dependent on incredible coincidences/situations), and more western-style story arcs (whereas Zhang Yimou tends to use Chinese story arcs which seem more arbitrary to western viewers).

[tsap seui]

"Qiu Ju" is one of the few movies by Zhang Yimou where he doesn't over-do it. In fact, that movie is very good, as is "To Live".

 

But I think he overdoes it in:

Ju Dou

Raise the Red Lanterns

Red Sorghum

Happy Times (which is supposed to be a comedy)

Hero

Shanghai Triad

 

In most of his movies, his protagonist ends up insane or dying/giving up in utter despair. That's really not what I enjoy in a movie.

 

One thing, however: Zhang Yimou's films are always visually stunning.

 

There are just other directors I prefer more, especially Feng Xiaogang, but also Chen Kaige, Li Ang, Hao Ning (mainly for "Crazy Stone"), Tsui Hark, and even Clarence Fok Yiu-leung.

 

Feng Xiaogang directed:

World Without Thieves

CellPhone

Big Shot's Funeral

The Dream Factory

Bu Jian Bu San

Tang Shan

 

Those are all great movies, in my opinion.

 

The combination of Johnnie To and Ka Fai-Wai on the Andy Lau & Sammi Cheng Spring Festival movies ("Love on a diet", "Needing You" and "Long Juan Feng") and "My Left Eye Sees Ghosts" are great.

 

Johnnie To's "Running Out of Time" is one of the best movies I've ever seen.

 

But if you watched all these movies, you'll see that I tend to like a little comedy injected into serious subjects, and a tendency to more realistic situations (rather than Zhang Yimou's tendency to make his plots dependent on incredible coincidences/situations), and more western-style story arcs (whereas Zhang Yimou tends to use Chinese story arcs which seem more arbitrary to western viewers).

 

Well, there is your opinion Yimou, good thing you aren't our official movie cridick.

 

tsap seui

[A Mafan]

After thinking about a little more, the reason I don't like Zhang Yimou is every single movie I've seen of his (and, admittedly, I haven't seen them all), all have the same message:

"It doesn't matter what you want, you can't have it."

Nobody ever gets what they want in:

Raise the Red Lanterns

Qiu Ju

Ju Dou

Red Sorghum

Shanghai Triads

Happy Times

Hero

To Live

 

And the more he has his protagonist struggle, the more the protagonist suffers. And the more sincere the protagonist is in trying to do the right thing, the more they suffer for their good heart.

 

(now, I haven't watched "Not One Less", which seems to be an exception to this theme)

 

I don't enjoy Zhang's films because their dependence on fate for the plot makes them seem contrived and unrealistic to me.

[A Mafan]

 

 

Well, there is your opinion Yimou, good thing you aren't our official movie cridick.

 

tsap seui

You'll have to point out where I tried to force anyone to accept my opinion as their own, because I don't see anything except a free exchange of opinions that only you seem to have a problem with.

 

I'm not sure why you try to turn everything I give my opinion on into a pissing contest, but fine: you win whatever is you think you need to compete over.

[credzba]

Well, there is your opinion Yimou, good thing you aren't our official movie cridick.

 

tsap seui

You'll have to point out where I tried to force anyone to accept my opinion as their own, because I don't see anything except a free exchange of opinions that only you seem to have a problem with.

 

I'm not sure why you try to turn everything I give my opinion on into a pissing contest, but fine: you win whatever is you think you need to compete over.

 

He is just yanking your chain a mafan.

Tsap hasn't had anything serious to say to anyone in nearly 100 years.

Don't take him serious, just tease him back.

 

Perhaps Tsap doesn't stay awake long enough to know any real depth in a movie ?

[tsap seui]

 

 

Well, there is your opinion Yimou, good thing you aren't our official movie cridick.

 

tsap seui

You'll have to point out where I tried to force anyone to accept my opinion as their own, because I don't see anything except a free exchange of opinions that only you seem to have a problem with.

 

I'm not sure why you try to turn everything I give my opinion on into a pissing contest, but fine: you win whatever is you think you need to compete over.

 

Wow, you may want to wipe that cow chip offa yore shoulder, soldier. It's Christmas fer Christsakes, you not having fun or something? How you come up with this thread has become a pissing contest, or that I think that you have tried to force your opinion on anyone else.....or that I even have a problem with the whole thing is way beyond me.

 

You aren't doing too well in interpretting my words, and injecting your own words as to what you think I was saying is just plain foolish, and childish.

 

Lighten up son, it's the holidaze. This thread isn't about you....or me. Folks can have opinions different from yours...really, it's okay.

 

As far as me "winning" anything...well, troop, the only thing I have won is my recent "winning" 100% service connected disability which was in recognition for the sustained hardcore combat I went through... I don't see how that could have anything in common with you, or anything to do with competing with you.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

tsap seui