December 7, 1941

[dnoblett]

Wow, 70 years!

 

I was reading in the paper this morning of a survivor Lee Soucy of the Utah sinking, having some of his remains interned on that wreck. Only two of the 12 ships sunk that day remain, the Utah, and the Arizona, and any survivors of those ships can have their remains entombed on them.

 

http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/396/223/Pearl%20Harbor%20burial.jpg

PEARL HARBOR (HawaiiNewsNow) -

 

A Pearl Harbor survivor's final wish has been granted. The sailor who survived the 1941 attack rejoined his fallen USS Utah shipmates with a burial at sea. Roughly 200 people attended the special sunset ceremony on Tuesday night. Lee Soucy was just 17 when he enlisted in the U.S. Navy. On December 7, 1941, he was a medic on the USS Utah when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Torpedoes struck the ship a few minutes after the attack started. 58 sailors died, but Soucy survived. He died in Texas last year at the age of 90. Now he has rejoined the sailors still entombed in the rusting ship.

 

"He felt such pride. He was friends and brothers with his other shipmates," said his daughter, Margaret Soucy.

 

11 family members watched as Navy divers carefully carried a small urn with some of Lee Soucy's ashes. The remains of 10 other survivors from the USS Utah are also interred in the wreckage.

 

MORE:

http://www.hawaiinew...al-wish-granted

 

http://www.foxnews.c...ps-after-death/

[Mick]

Thanks for posting this reminder, Dan. This morning I paused for about ten minutes and said a special prayer for those who died at Pearl. I had an Uncle who died there that I never had the opportunity to meet (I was born in 1949). He was my mother's oldest brother and had enlisted in the Navy just a year before. According to our family history, he planned on making a career out of the Navy.

[Kyle]

Thank you to all who have or to those who are currently serving our country.

[Thomas Promise]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/07/pearl-harbor-day_n_1134090.html

[dnoblett]

http://www.huffingto..._n_1134090.html

I will remind you to avoid posting links without your comment.

 

Anyway here is FDR's speech video from that link.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VqQAf74fsE

[knloregon]

Pearl Harbor was the beginning of sacrifice for the US--- but the war had already begun. Lets not forget that China were already occupied by a brutal Japan.

 

On December 8, 1941 (AT THE SAME TIME THAT PEARL HARBOR WAS UNDER ATTACK) --- time difference) ---- Chinese/Americans, (one from Portland, Oregon, and a member of my church) ) who many months before, had been trained in the midwest at Alison Engine works---makers of the engine in the P41 fighter --------entered Kunming China, after a long, hard slog up the Burma Road, and along with them, were the Alison engines, and the P41 airframes.

 

Many here probably know, this was the advance force of the AVG. (Flying Tigers) -----and they had in their possession---on Pearl Harbor Day ---and deep in Japanese territory---the first AMERICAN weapons that would take the fight directly to the Japanese.

 

Unfortunately, we often read WW2 history exclusively from a western perspective.

[Mick]

Pearl Harbor was the beginning of sacrifice for the US--- but the war had already begun. Lets not forget that China were already occupied by a brutal Japan.

 

On December 8, 1941 (AT THE SAME TIME THAT PEARL HARBOR WAS UNDER ATTACK) --- time difference) ---- Chinese/Americans, (one from Portland, Oregon, and a member of my church) ) who many months before, had been trained in the midwest at Alison Engine works---makers of the engine in the P41 fighter --------entered Kunming China, after a long, hard slog up the Burma Road, and along with them, were the Alison engines, and the P41 airframes.

 

Many here probably know, this was the advance force of the AVG. (Flying Tigers) -----and they had in their possession---on Pearl Harbor Day ---and deep in Japanese territory---the first AMERICAN weapons that would take the fight directly to the Japanese.

 

Unfortunately, we often read WW2 history exclusively from a western perspective.

Reminds me also of the many pilots who risked their lives (and many who lost their lives) flying "over the hump" to get at the Japanese in China. The Chinese people suffered greatly under the Japanese boot, starting in 1937 or so. If any of you haven't read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang, I would highly recommend it.

[knloregon]

Yep, unarmed C-47's, (DC-3) but among the most dangerous flying of WW 2, these planes didn't have the ceiling to get over the SE Himalayas, so they had to fly thru the passes, when the weather closed in, and visibility became zero, their navigation equipment was too basic to thread the needle successfully all of the time. The Chinese continue to find C-47 crash sites in remote areas. Last I recall was 4 or 5 years ago.

[dnoblett]

Pearl Harbor was the beginning of sacrifice for the US--- but the war had already begun. Lets not forget that China were already occupied by a brutal Japan.

 

On December 8, 1941 (AT THE SAME TIME THAT PEARL HARBOR WAS UNDER ATTACK) --- time difference) ---- Chinese/Americans, (one from Portland, Oregon, and a member of my church) ) who many months before, had been trained in the midwest at Alison Engine works---makers of the engine in the P41 fighter --------entered Kunming China, after a long, hard slog up the Burma Road, and along with them, were the Alison engines, and the P41 airframes.

 

Many here probably know, this was the advance force of the AVG. (Flying Tigers) -----and they had in their possession---on Pearl Harbor Day ---and deep in Japanese territory---the first AMERICAN weapons that would take the fight directly to the Japanese.

 

Unfortunately, we often read WW2 history exclusively from a western perspective.

Reminds me also of the many pilots who risked their lives (and many who lost their lives) flying "over the hump" to get at the Japanese in China. The Chinese people suffered greatly under the Japanese boot, starting in 1937 or so. If any of you haven't read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang, I would highly recommend it.

Oh no denying that Americans were not risking their lives in the war well before Pearl Harbor, the AVG was doing heroic things for China before the USA officially got into the war. However it took Pearl Harbor, to finally wake the USA up, and move the public away from the neutral pacifist stance, at the time too many still remembered WW-I "The War to End All Wars", and the tremendous loss of lives in that war.

[Thomas Promise]

Pearl Harbor was the beginning of sacrifice for the US--- but the war had already begun. Lets not forget that China were already occupied by a brutal Japan.

 

On December 8, 1941 (AT THE SAME TIME THAT PEARL HARBOR WAS UNDER ATTACK) --- time difference) ---- Chinese/Americans, (one from Portland, Oregon, and a member of my church) ) who many months before, had been trained in the midwest at Alison Engine works---makers of the engine in the P41 fighter --------entered Kunming China, after a long, hard slog up the Burma Road, and along with them, were the Alison engines, and the P41 airframes.

 

Many here probably know, this was the advance force of the AVG. (Flying Tigers) -----and they had in their possession---on Pearl Harbor Day ---and deep in Japanese territory---the first AMERICAN weapons that would take the fight directly to the Japanese.

 

Unfortunately, we often read WW2 history exclusively from a western perspective.

Reminds me also of the many pilots who risked their lives (and many who lost their lives) flying "over the hump" to get at the Japanese in China. The Chinese people suffered greatly under the Japanese boot, starting in 1937 or so. If any of you haven't read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang, I would highly recommend it.

Oh no denying that Americans were not risking their lives in the war well before Pearl Harbor, the AVG was doing heroic things for China before the USA officially got into the war. However it took Pearl Harbor, to finally wake the USA up, and move the public away from the neutral pacifist stance, at the time too many still remembered WW-I "The War to End All Wars", and the tremendous loss of lives in that war.

The flying Tigers was headed by Claire Chenault which became the 14th USA Air Corp. Prior to the USA entry into the war they where a group of mercenaries for profit with Chiang Kai Chek. Chenault and Pappy Boyington too name few.

[tsap seui]

I've tried to answer in this thread but am just at a loss of words. I didn't even write anything for Veterans day like I usually do, had a good chapter to write for the book I hope to get out before my lights go out but just couldn't get it down on paper.

 

All I can think of about Pearl Harbor is....what a mess. I hope it was just another "conspiracy" about Pearl Harbor being "let" happen to wake up America but seeing the crap and the way Vietnam was run, I have grave doubts...GRAVE. I would never have made it as a senior grade officer....I have too much heart and can't keep my mouth shut and stand by when I see stupid crap happening.

 

I didn't live back in those years of the 1930's and 40's so I am not in touch with the mindset of back then but I look back at it and wonder how in the wide wide world of sports we sat back with what was happening with China and Europe and waited until we were attacked to jump in and do the right thing? Crazy as I am I would have probably taken flying lessons and hitched a ride on a boat to somewhere, east or west, to pitch in and try to help stop that cruel insanity. Then again, I admit, I always have been crazier than Tom Hilligas's blue tick hound...and adventurous, too.

 

tsap seui

Edited December 9, 2011 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[dnoblett]

The flying Tigers was headed by Claire Chenault which became the 14th USA Air Corp. Prior to the USA entry into the war they where a group of mercenaries for profit with Chiang Kai Chek. Chenault and Pappy Boyington too name few.

I would not apply "Mercenary" and "For Profit" to the AVG, the American Volunteer Groups were volunteer air units organized by the United States government to aid the Nationalist government of China against Japan in the Second Sino-Japanese War. The only unit to actually see combat was the 1st AVG, popularly known as the Flying Tigers.

 

They were detached military, and all volunteers.

 

I've tried to answer in this thread but am just at a loss of words. I didn't even write anything for Veterans day like I usually do, had a good chapter to write for the book I hope to get out before my lights go out but just couldn't get it down on paper.

 

All I can think of about Pearl Harbor is....what a mess. I hope it was just another "conspiracy" about Pearl Harbor being "let" happen to wake up America but seeing the crap and the way Vietnam was run, I have grave doubts...GRAVE. I would never have made it as a senior grade officer....I have too much heart and can't keep my mouth shut and stand by when I see stupid crap happening.

 

I didn't live back in those years of the 1930's and 40's so I am not in touch with the mindset of back then but I look back at it and wonder how in the wide wide world of sports we sat back with what was happening with China and Europe and waited until we were attacked to jump in and do the right thing? Crazy as I am I would have probably taken flying lessons and hitched a ride on a boat to somewhere, east or west, to pitch in and try to help stop that cruel insanity. Then again, I admit, I always have been crazier than Tom Hilligas's blue tick hound...and adventurous, too.

 

tsap seui

I know you would have fit right in with the AVG, and yes the boys flying and fighting with the AVG probably felt much as you did. There were even Americans who went to England prior to the US entry to the war that were flying in the Battle of Britain.

 

For the duration of the Battle of Britain, America was officially neutral, only coming into the war after the attack on Pearl Harbour in December 1941. Many in America supported what Great Britain and her allies were fighting for but memories of World War One were still raw and isolationism was a widely accepted practice within America. However, a few young men ¨C for whatever personal reasons ¨C wanted to offer more than just moral support. A few Americans arrived in Britain and offered to fight for Fighter Command. A ¡®special arrangement¡¯ with the RAF meant that they did not have to give up American citizenship. In total, ten American citizens fought during the Battle of Britain.

http://www.historyle...tle_britain.htm

[knloregon]

Yeah, Tsap,

 

I also see you cut from the same cloth as the AVG pilots --- but profit was also a motive---they got (if memory serves)---$300.00 cash for every confirmed kill. The P-40 was probably a better plane than it got credit for, but it was a pig in a climb, (climbing out of a confrontation was considered suicide) --- and could not out maneuver the Zero.

 

But it had advantages, in that it dived like a bat out of Hell, and was well armored, so if the Japs didn't jump in initially, they were in deep trouble. Chenault figured out the plane's limitations early, and trained his pilots to patrol at altitude, ready to dive--- (and ironically, the P-40 wasn't that good at high altitude either)

 

As far as my Chinese church member's father's personally history goes-----his father was constantly on the run from US immigration officials thoughout high school, but as it turned out, was brilliant at the local poly-tech HS called Benson --- still around today, but much diluted---(every kid NEEDS to go to college, don't you know).

 

Anyway, he was a star in the automotive classes, and particularly in electrical diagnoses ---so when Immigration finally caught up with him he was given a clear choice----he could either go to the Allison aviation motor works in the mid-west---all expenses paid, to train as a mechanic for a secret mission in China --- or he could be deported.

 

So, Tsap, your 'paranoid' instincts happen to still be serving you well. Long before the war, FDR had cut the deal to help the ROC, under the table, and there was a clandestine effort to pull the necesary manpower together. The effort needed the engine mechanics to be fluent in Chinese, under what proved correct---the assumption that said mechanics would need to source parts and support locally in China. So even then, it would not be surprising to discover that Immigration was working with the FBI, to identify Chinese with the necessary mechanical skills---and who were in a position that they could be strong-armed into service.