Riot in Shishou

[whome?]

A good example of how chinese people are not afraid of the police. It's common for chinese to fight police when police act wrongly .

 

And to me this is one of the greatest ironies I find about China and the people. When you look at all the laws and control the govt. wants to exert it is easy to say they have no freedom in China. Yet in reality the Chinese people usually do whatever they want and pick/choose when to follow or ignore laws/requirements with little consequence for not following the laws. It makes it hard to explain to others but it is why in some ways I think the Chinese have more freedom than others because of what Jin wrote.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

A good example of how chinese people are not afraid of the police. It's common for chinese to fight police when police act wrongly .

 

And to me this is one of the greatest ironies I find about China and the people. When you look at all the laws and control the govt. wants to exert it is easy to say they have no freedom in China. Yet in reality the Chinese people usually do whatever they want and pick/choose when to follow or ignore laws/requirements with little consequence for not following the laws. It makes it hard to explain to others but it is why in some ways I think the Chinese have more freedom than others because of what Jin wrote.

 

Very good point!

[Jeikun]

A good example of how chinese people are not afraid of the police. It's common for chinese to fight police when police act wrongly .

 

And to me this is one of the greatest ironies I find about China and the people. When you look at all the laws and control the govt. wants to exert it is easy to say they have no freedom in China. Yet in reality the Chinese people usually do whatever they want and pick/choose when to follow or ignore laws/requirements with little consequence for not following the laws. It makes it hard to explain to others but it is why in some ways I think the Chinese have more freedom than others because of what Jin wrote.

 

Very good point!

 

Except when they don't.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

Except when they don't.

 

 

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

[Jeikun]

 

Except when they don't.

 

 

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

 

 

This is nonsensical. If driving the streets without fear of being accosted and beat down for speeding is your only measure, then maybe. But that wasn't what I was replying to. The quote was stating how perhaps Chinese people are more free than others because they can often ignore the laws with little consequence. When the police decide to crack an old lady in the head and kick her a few times for good measure for selling sodas from a cooler on the sidewalk, I have no choice but to laugh at your rosy painting of things. Not only can the PEOPLE ignore the law often in China and get away with it... but the POLICE can ignore the law and get away with it too.

 

As far as feeling safe walking the street, it is pretty safe, AND you are a white foreign dude. My ex was attacked twice, and nearly raped once if someone hadn't came along she would have been. I guess she is the only woman who was ever violently assaulted in China.

 

{edit} remark that set of a small argument has been removed..

Edited June 24, 2009 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[whome?]

 

Except when they don't.

 

 

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

 

 

This is nonsensical. If driving the streets without fear of being accosted and beat down for speeding is your only measure, then maybe. But that wasn't what I was replying to. The quote was stating how perhaps Chinese people are more free than others because they can often ignore the laws with little consequence. When the police decide to crack an old lady in the head and kick her a few times for good measure for selling sodas from a cooler on the sidewalk, I have no choice but to laugh at your rosy painting of things. Not only can the PEOPLE ignore the law often in China and get away with it... but the POLICE can ignore the law and get away with it too.

As far as feeling safe walking the street, it is pretty safe, AND you are a white foreign dude. My ex was attacked twice, and nearly raped once if someone hadn't came along she would have been. I guess she is the only woman who was ever violently assaulted in China.

 

{edit} remark that set of a small argument has been removed..

 

He did not make the comment .. I did. What I said was in SOME ways the chinese people have more freedoms than us basis the comment Jin made (which is a very common feeling among the Chinese I know). In other ways they have less freedom.

 

My point was it is not so ingrained in the Chinese mind that you have to follow every rule/law like it is in us and thus they have some measure of freedom that we do not have.

 

It is better or worse ... that is debatable and depends on who you are talking with. In addition, just as there are some USC who hate everything about the USA so there are with Chinese people. Some only see the rosy nationalist view, some see the good/bad, and others only see the bad.

 

I did not intend it to be taken as China is better than USA or vice-versa. Only that to me, and only me, it is ironic that they have so many laws/rules but yet are so free to avoid/break them. It certianly makes it difficult to have operating discipline in a factory compared to the USA but at other times, from a personal viewpoint, it is refreshing.

Edited June 24, 2009 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[Guest jin979]

Dont fight

Many streets in many places of China are very unsafe unless you have relationships there.

The Police in China are mainly very corrupt and fighting with them is common.

[Jeikun]

 

Except when they don't.

 

 

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

 

 

This is nonsensical. If driving the streets without fear of being accosted and beat down for speeding is your only measure, then maybe. But that wasn't what I was replying to. The quote was stating how perhaps Chinese people are more free than others because they can often ignore the laws with little consequence. When the police decide to crack an old lady in the head and kick her a few times for good measure for selling sodas from a cooler on the sidewalk, I have no choice but to laugh at your rosy painting of things. Not only can the PEOPLE ignore the law often in China and get away with it... but the POLICE can ignore the law and get away with it too.

As far as feeling safe walking the street, it is pretty safe, AND you are a white foreign dude. My ex was attacked twice, and nearly raped once if someone hadn't came along she would have been. I guess she is the only woman who was ever violently assaulted in China.

 

{edit} remark that set of a small argument has been removed..

 

He did not make the comment .. I did. What I said was in SOME ways the chinese people have more freedoms than us basis the comment Jin made (which is a very common feeling among the Chinese I know). In other ways they have less freedom.

 

My point was it is not so ingrained in the Chinese mind that you have to follow every rule/law like it is in us and thus they have some measure of freedom that we do not have.

 

It is better or worse ... that is debatable and depends on who you are talking with. In addition, just as there are some USC who hate everything about the USA so there are with Chinese people. Some only see the rosy nationalist view, some see the good/bad, and others only see the bad.

 

I did not intend it to be taken as China is better than USA or vice-versa. Only that to me, and only me, it is ironic that they have so many laws/rules but yet are so free to avoid/break them. It certianly makes it difficult to have operating discipline in a factory compared to the USA but at other times, from a personal viewpoint, it is refreshing.

 

 

I know you made the comment. My original reply was to the chain based on your comment. And yes, the irony you point out isn't lost on me. I don't disagree with your point. I was simply adding that on the flip side, freedom can suddenly evaporate for some unfortunates there, hence my comment "except when they don't". I also agree that experience will differ among Chinese people, sometimes drastically, you wouldn't believe they were talking about the same country and people. Which really isn't so suprising, you can get that here too and we have much fewer people (for example Jesse feels his rights may be violated when he is pulled over for speeding, while I myself do not.)

 

I simply balk at the concept of someone who has lived in China for awhile as a foreigner professing that he has a level of deep knowledge that cannot be questioned... and those who have not walked in his shoes might as well keep their opinions to themselves. which set me off beyond what your post entailed. I am sorry if some of my railing against he who may not be questioned rubbed off on you.

 

Insidentally the thing about the lady being beaten happened right in front of Jun in Beijing in 2004 and she called me right after to tell me about it. This wasn;t the only story either. But I guess since it is second hand, it didn't happen.

Edited June 24, 2009 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

Dont fight

Many streets in many places of China are very unsafe unless you have relationships there.

The Police in China are mainly very corrupt and fighting with them is common.

 

 

If we take both of your quotes together, I think we are not in disagreement at all. Pros and Cons. The core of my point was merely that both exist.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

(for example Jesse feels his rights may be violated when he is pulled over for speeding, while I myself do not.)

 

 

First, let me just say, that nowhere in this thread did I imply that my rights had been violated for getting pulled over by a traffic cop. To the contrary, I respect all law enforcement and take careful steps to ensure that I comply with their every request. It's not a right to drive on the roads of America, but rather a privilege. If you break the law, you pay the consequences.

 

Because there is so much danger on the streets of America, all law enforcement officers must be careful every single step they take. They have no way of knowing whether the person they pull over has a gun in the car with the intent of killing them. It is for this reason, the police no longer allow you to exit your car, and appreciate that you keep your hands in full view. That's only being a smart policeman.

 

That sort of behavior is not needed in China; at least yet.

 

It seems rather silly to go back and clarify a statement that was clearly made.

[Jeikun]

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket.

 

Yes, very clearly indeed.

 

But at that point, I was only using that as a half sarcastic example of what I was trying to express since it had just been said, instead of wasting energy thinking up a hypothetical. I could have used a Democrat vs Republican example, or a conspiracy theorist example... but this has already gone way past being worth the energy exerted in typing and reading it.

[whome?]

 

Except when they don't.

 

 

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

 

 

This is nonsensical. If driving the streets without fear of being accosted and beat down for speeding is your only measure, then maybe. But that wasn't what I was replying to. The quote was stating how perhaps Chinese people are more free than others because they can often ignore the laws with little consequence. When the police decide to crack an old lady in the head and kick her a few times for good measure for selling sodas from a cooler on the sidewalk, I have no choice but to laugh at your rosy painting of things. Not only can the PEOPLE ignore the law often in China and get away with it... but the POLICE can ignore the law and get away with it too.

As far as feeling safe walking the street, it is pretty safe, AND you are a white foreign dude. My ex was attacked twice, and nearly raped once if someone hadn't came along she would have been. I guess she is the only woman who was ever violently assaulted in China.

 

{edit} remark that set of a small argument has been removed..

 

He did not make the comment .. I did. What I said was in SOME ways the chinese people have more freedoms than us basis the comment Jin made (which is a very common feeling among the Chinese I know). In other ways they have less freedom.

 

My point was it is not so ingrained in the Chinese mind that you have to follow every rule/law like it is in us and thus they have some measure of freedom that we do not have.

 

It is better or worse ... that is debatable and depends on who you are talking with. In addition, just as there are some USC who hate everything about the USA so there are with Chinese people. Some only see the rosy nationalist view, some see the good/bad, and others only see the bad.

 

I did not intend it to be taken as China is better than USA or vice-versa. Only that to me, and only me, it is ironic that they have so many laws/rules but yet are so free to avoid/break them. It certianly makes it difficult to have operating discipline in a factory compared to the USA but at other times, from a personal viewpoint, it is refreshing.

 

 

I know you made the comment. My original reply was to the chain based on your comment. And yes, the irony you point out isn't lost on me. I don't disagree with your point. I was simply adding that on the flip side, freedom can suddenly evaporate for some unfortunates there, hence my comment "except when they don't". I also agree that experience will differ among Chinese people, sometimes drastically, you wouldn't believe they were talking about the same country and people. Which really isn't so suprising, you can get that here too and we have much fewer people (for example Jesse feels his rights may be violated when he is pulled over for speeding, while I myself do not.)

 

I simply balk at the concept of someone who has lived in China for awhile as a foreigner professing that he has a level of deep knowledge that cannot be questioned... and those who have not walked in his shoes might as well keep their opinions to themselves. which set me off beyond what your post entailed. I am sorry if some of my railing against he who may not be questioned rubbed off on you.

 

Insidentally the thing about the lady being beaten happened right in front of Jun in Beijing in 2004 and she called me right after to tell me about it. This wasn;t the only story either. But I guess since it is second hand, it didn't happen.

 

I am glad that someone stopped to help your wife. That is my one biggest complaint in China. When you see a car accident or something like this the normal response of the people is "don't get involved" out of fear of being blamed themselves or getting into trouble with the police if the person causing the situation happens to have connections. I learned this the hard way during one car accident ... I also become the one who caused it even though I was a bystander that saw the car hit the girl and then try to drive on.

Edited June 24, 2009 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket.

 

Yes, very clearly indeed.

 

But at that point, I was only using that as a half sarcastic example of what I was trying to express since it had just been said, instead of wasting energy thinking up a hypothetical. I could have used a Democrat vs Republican example, or a conspiracy theorist example... but this has already gone way past being worth the energy exerted in typing and reading it.

 

 

 

Actually, here's the complete posting and context...

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

 

First, let me just say, that nowhere in this thread did I imply that my rights had been violated for getting pulled over by a traffic cop. To the contrary, I respect all law enforcement and take careful steps to ensure that I comply with their every request. It's not a right to drive on the roads of America, but rather a privilege. If you break the law, you pay the consequences.

 

Because there is so much danger on the streets of America, all law enforcement officers must be careful every single step they take. They have no way of knowing whether the person they pull over has a gun in the car with the intent of killing them. It is for this reason, the police no longer allow you to exit your car, and appreciate that you keep your hands in full view. That's only being a smart policeman.

 

That sort of behavior is not needed in China; at least yet.

[Jeikun]

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket.

 

Yes, very clearly indeed.

 

But at that point, I was only using that as a half sarcastic example of what I was trying to express since it had just been said, instead of wasting energy thinking up a hypothetical. I could have used a Democrat vs Republican example, or a conspiracy theorist example... but this has already gone way past being worth the energy exerted in typing and reading it.

 

 

 

Actually, here's the complete posting and context...

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

 

First, let me just say, that nowhere in this thread did I imply that my rights had been violated for getting pulled over by a traffic cop. To the contrary, I respect all law enforcement and take careful steps to ensure that I comply with their every request. It's not a right to drive on the roads of America, but rather a privilege. If you break the law, you pay the consequences.

 

Because there is so much danger on the streets of America, all law enforcement officers must be careful every single step they take. They have no way of knowing whether the person they pull over has a gun in the car with the intent of killing them. It is for this reason, the police no longer allow you to exit your car, and appreciate that you keep your hands in full view. That's only being a smart policeman.

 

That sort of behavior is not needed in China; at least yet.

 

sigh... nor did I say you claimed you made that assertion. I said "Jesse feels his rights may be violated..." May = might. You said "I am more in fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for..." Practically the same thing... except you apparently took me to meaning that I interpereted you as saying you felt being pulled over may be a violation of your rights. Which was NOT what I was saying. But by all means, split hairs. This is all so very important.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[samsong]

 

Except when they don't.

 

 

Who are they, and when did they do it?

 

I've been in more fear of my personal freedom in the US from getting pulled over for a traffic ticket. This is likely due to the fact that virtually every police officer is in fear of being killed just for doing their job. Crime in the US is out of control. That's not the case in China. Not because the police walk the streets beating people up and oppressing them, but because violence is not the method of choice here.

Spoken like a true expatriate!...