I looka lika Zhong guo ren

[whome?]

Sounds you're starting to get more comfortable. A foreigner that's been in China for almost 30-years told me the other day, that no matter how long you're in China, you will always be a foreigner. I think what he meant, was that we'll always be recognized as not being a native of China.

 

Most foreigners travel about in groups. You don't very often see someone traveling alone, most likely because they don't know the language or are just too new to the area.

 

I happened to run into one of those rarities awhile back in Zhongshan. He had been living by himself in a hotel and working in the city. He was going home from work and I met him on a bus. I thought it was cool to see him there by himself and he seemed fairly happy.

My wife often tells me that I look like a Xingjian person.

 

there are many foreigners like this in beijing (where i usually go when i go to china). many aren't american, though. the only other foreigners i am close with in china are korean. one is a grad student in history at beijing normal university and the other works at a chinese company.

 

i can't imagine wanting to live there without the ability to be independent...

 

 

I understand what you're saying, but let's also say that everyone has the ability to be independent. It's just a really tough place to get to. It isn't like you wake up one day and say I'm going to go out of town, or on a trip by myself to a place where they can only speak Chinese. Everybody is a little bit different that comes to China from another country. Some are very inquisitive and want to learn. Others, are shut in, and don't venture out much. I'm somewhere in the middle. I have to resist the temptation to stay at home rather than go out and experience things by myself. It can be quite unsettling. I've found that if you push through it, and try it anyway, the rewards are similar to what a child feels the first time they walk or ride a bike.

 

Still, there are many that just figure it's too much, and give up after a while. You've got to make a decision to become a part of it and learn it, or get eaten alive.

 

well said ... you have to push yourself ... and as one who still speaks chinese at the level of a toddler you can still do many things and go many places by yourself in China. For my case it took me a while to finally get my Chinese co-workers to quit treating me like a baby .. everytime I would meantion what I intended to do by myself (and had usually already done it) they told me how they needed to help me ..

[knloregon]

Carl is right about Beijing, since the populace has had so much exposure to others from around the world, its much more cosmopolitan that other parts of China.

 

Another example were China is 30-50 years behind the US in racial understanding..... And given China's massively homogeneous (Han) population, its unlikely, that as a nation, there will be pressure to assimilate----at least in our lifetimes...

[carl.hops]

Since I do plan to stay in China for a long time, I wont give my self any illusions of the possibility I can be accepted by all but you cant let that put you down, not even the minority's here have that luxury or at current times the Arabic's in our own home. I'm glad that I can at least blend in fairly well, maybe the down right racist and ignorance that has some Chinese saying things like that to your wife will lessen as more and more people become educated as China develops into first world.

I love it when I go into a place and hear someone say laowai, I think its pretty funny how a lot of Chinese will state something out loud like that. They say it not really out of spite but surprise, I'll usually turn my head their way and kind of chuckle which results in us all smiling or them becoming embarrassed.

 

But after a few trips to Beijing I've noticed a lot of these little foreigner adventures we have to go through every day don't happen on the same scale because of the large foreign population, its your little home away from home if you're getting tired.

 

Why do you think this ? you mean racism and ignorance does not exist in "developed" countries?

 

read the underlined word (fixed the spelling error), it answers your question

unfortunately, these things wont be leaving any country any time soon. But I hope I'm proven wrong.

To clarify a bit more, the more educated someone is the more understanding they are. There is a large population of people in large citys from rural areas who have no education, but of course even the well educated can be just as racist and idiotic, and an illiterate farmer can be more accepting and understanding.

 

I definitely agree with knl, I don't hope to see the same cultural understanding through out most of the population during my life time, but I think it will slowly change as the education system gets better and more people join the middle class.

Edited June 15, 2009 by carl.hops (see edit history)

[whome?]

Since I do plan to stay in China for a long time, I wont give my self any illusions of the possibility I can be accepted by all but you cant let that put you down, not even the minority's here have that luxury or at current times the Arabic's in our own home. I'm glad that I can at least blend in fairly well, maybe the down right racist and ignorance that has some Chinese saying things like that to your wife will lessen as more and more people become educated as China develops into first world.

I love it when I go into a place and hear someone say laowai, I think its pretty funny how a lot of Chinese will state something out loud like that. They say it not really out of spite but surprise, I'll usually turn my head their way and kind of chuckle which results in us all smiling or them becoming embarrassed.

 

But after a few trips to Beijing I've noticed a lot of these little foreigner adventures we have to go through every day don't happen on the same scale because of the large foreign population, its your little home away from home if you're getting tired.

 

Why do you think this ? you mean racism and ignorance does not exist in "developed" countries?

 

read the underlined word (fixed the spelling error), it answers your question

unfortunately, these things wont be leaving any country any time soon. But I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

IMHO there is not any more racist actions/ignorance in China against foreigners than they are in western countries against asians. Considering China's history in late 1800's/early 1900's with western countries I would say their treatment of westerners today is quite remarkable.

[carl.hops]

I really cant say either way, from what I've seen on T.V. you've made a good point. But from where I've grown up (me not being Asian my self but having many Asian friends growing up) I can say that that ignorance is dead in the population save for the few maybe 3%?

 

Based off my travels through China I can say with certainty that there is a lot more open racism that isn't even acknowledged as racism or even a problem (the hiring of white foreigners over Asian looking ones who can speak English just as well) maybe most Americans just know how to keep their bigotry to themselves because they are afraid of the backlash. Maybe my view is warped, now that I'm the minority, on the receiving end..

Edited June 15, 2009 by carl.hops (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

I really cant say either way, from what I've seen on T.V. you've made a good point. But from where I've grown up (me not being Asian my self but having many Asian friends growing up) I can say that that ignorance is dead in the population save for the few maybe 3%?

 

Based off my travels through China I can say with certainty that there is a lot more open racism that isn't even acknowledged as racism or even a problem (the hiring of white foreigners over Asian looking ones who can speak English just as well) maybe most Americans just know how to keep their bigotry to themselves because they are afraid of the backlash. Maybe my view is warped, now that I'm the minority, on the receiving end..

 

 

I do think your view is rather limited, though may seem like truth to you. I wouldn't paint it with that broad of a brush though, as no matter where you are, there is always variation. Racism is a very, very strong word. I can tell you, that I have traveled to a lot of places in China in the last five years, and I have yet to encounter a single case where someone responded to me in what I would deem a racist manner. I have however seen people that are not welcoming of foreigners, which I consider quite a bit different than being racist.

 

I view China as a country that speaks predominately Mandarin. Of course, Shanghai people have their own language, and Guangdong people speak Cantonese, and many of the rural villages have local language. Still, you will find most everyone at least understands Mandarin. That is of course you go to the extremely rural areas.

 

You have to create your opportunities. Chinese people enjoy those who want to learn, rather than impart information. There is plenty of work available to Westerners in China. Maybe some of the English teaching jobs don't pay that much, but it's often enough to at least get by. Please do yourself a favor. Avoid becoming an embittered Westerner if you can. It's so easy to find your way there. I get pissed a lot too by many of the things I thought were once cute cultural differences. After a while, they stop being cute, and start becoming downright annoying. It's at those moments I stop and remember my wife's words:

 

"Don't try to change people. Don't try to change things. Things are how they are. Accept them."

[whome?]

I really cant say either way, from what I've seen on T.V. you've made a good point. But from where I've grown up (me not being Asian my self but having many Asian friends growing up) I can say that that ignorance is dead in the population save for the few maybe 3%?

 

Based off my travels through China I can say with certainty that there is a lot more open racism that isn't even acknowledged as racism or even a problem (the hiring of white foreigners over Asian looking ones who can speak English just as well) maybe most Americans just know how to keep their bigotry to themselves because they are afraid of the backlash. Maybe my view is warped, now that I'm the minority, on the receiving end..

 

You are right in that they probably are more open in that they bluntly say what they are thinking....like when they tell me I am fat or strong...strong being the nice way of saying fat. I have heard many western women expat complain of this also. Yet I perfer the non-PC environment here.

 

I also agree with Jesse in that their not being open to or liking foreigners is not the same as racism. Based on where I grow-up and lived in USA my perception is there is a many people back home who are not so open to foreigners and there are here in China ...

[weiaijiayou]

I really cant say either way, from what I've seen on T.V. you've made a good point. But from where I've grown up (me not being Asian my self but having many Asian friends growing up) I can say that that ignorance is dead in the population save for the few maybe 3%?

 

Based off my travels through China I can say with certainty that there is a lot more open racism that isn't even acknowledged as racism or even a problem (the hiring of white foreigners over Asian looking ones who can speak English just as well) maybe most Americans just know how to keep their bigotry to themselves because they are afraid of the backlash. Maybe my view is warped, now that I'm the minority, on the receiving end..

 

 

I do think your view is rather limited, though may seem like truth to you. I wouldn't paint it with that broad of a brush though, as no matter where you are, there is always variation. Racism is a very, very strong word. I can tell you, that I have traveled to a lot of places in China in the last five years, and I have yet to encounter a single case where someone responded to me in what I would deem a racist manner. I have however seen people that are not welcoming of foreigners, which I consider quite a bit different than being racist.

 

I view China as a country that speaks predominately Mandarin. Of course, Shanghai people have their own language, and Guangdong people speak Cantonese, and many of the rural villages have local language. Still, you will find most everyone at least understands Mandarin. That is of course you go to the extremely rural areas.

 

You have to create your opportunities. Chinese people enjoy those who want to learn, rather than impart information. There is plenty of work available to Westerners in China. Maybe some of the English teaching jobs don't pay that much, but it's often enough to at least get by. Please do yourself a favor. Avoid becoming an embittered Westerner if you can. It's so easy to find your way there. I get pissed a lot too by many of the things I thought were once cute cultural differences. After a while, they stop being cute, and start becoming downright annoying. It's at those moments I stop and remember my wife's words:

 

"Don't try to change people. Don't try to change things. Things are how they are. Accept them."

 

racism is a strong word to use for the kind of treatment i was referring to in my original post (e.g., a stranger directly yelling at my wife "couldn't you find a chinese man?"). the word "racism" #1. implies that the belief holder finds the foreigner inferior and #2. also has a hateful or scornful component. the types of discrimination i've encountered in china mostly seem to involve the perception that westerners have had life too good and are in a way spoiled. the attitudes and treatment i've seen usually seem like ways that certain chinese are trying (non-consciously) to "even the playing field." things they say suggest that westerners are silly and trifling, and therefore the chinese is left feeling more proud about his or her culture, country, and daily way of life.

 

comparing these incidents and attitudes toward westerners to what we've seen and still see in america (complete inter-generational domination of a race, continued fear and hate crimes) would be insane. the situation of a foreigner in china is complex because, relatively speaking, it's usually the person holding the shitty end of life's stick who's doing the discriminating.

 

all this being said, there are still times when any foreigner will experience menacing situations and the feeling of threat (dare i say actual [/i]racism) because they just don't belong in china. for example, i was once laying down in the hard bed section of a train, relaxing, when a man came into my compartment (i was the only one there at the time) and leaned down within about two feet of my face. he was glaring at me with a snarl on his face, and behind him in the isle another man was standing, also looking at the man and me. absolutely puzzled, i said in chinese "good evening." after several more seconds of staring at me, the man replied, in a spiteful tone, "ÈÏ´íÈË" ("i thought you were someone else") and finally left me alone. this was a small incident, but it did give me a small glimpse into what it feels like to be at the mercy of a group of people very different from you and scornful because of it...

 

finally, please don't get the impression that any of this would ever prevent me from wanting to be the most meaningful and involved part of china that i can be. these experiences are things that i don't usually dwell on, but that i thought could be of interest for those here who aren't aware that things like this are taking place...

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

i was once laying down in the hard bed section of a train, relaxing, when a man came into my compartment (i was the only one there at the time) and leaned down within about two feet of my face. he was glaring at me with a snarl on his face, and behind him in the isle another man was standing, also looking at the man and me. absolutely puzzled, i said in chinese "good evening." after several more seconds of staring at me, the man replied, in a spiteful tone, "ÈÏ´íÈË" ("i thought you were someone else") and finally left me alone.

 

You gave him more of an opportunity than I would have. As you have explained it, no words necessary. However, a swift head-butt was; followed by laying down and going back to sleep.

[Guest Pommey]

GZBill was just stirring the soup.

 

hey I'm a expat in the USA, where are the buses ?

 

There's predijice and ignorance wherever you go, been to NY lately

[knloregon]

I've spent plenty of time on hard bed trains by myself, and my MO is to lay low for the first 2-3 hours or so. During that period there seem to be alot of people checking everyone else out, and since its fairly typical to be either the only white on board, or one of very few, you get attention..

 

But it goes away after the initial novelty, and after that, you can converse on a more relaxed basis with those who are more sincere. Some of my most memorable experiences in China was sharing the scenery going by with strangers trying to sharpen their English skills, and trading stories about how Oregon is similar---and different.

[knloregon]

...My opinion is that GZBill offers a cynical, but legitimate perspective as an ex-pat in China. I think he has been there for a considerable amount of time, and is fluent in Cantonese, at least. An asset to The Candle.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

...My opinion is that GZBill offers a cynical, but legitimate perspective as an ex-pat in China. I think he has been there for a considerable amount of time, and is fluent in Cantonese, at least. An asset to The Candle.

 

 

Bill is the real deal. He's here, and has the value of personal experience. I can see how any American would become cynical living in China over a long period of time. I'm sure if he thinks back hard enough, he will remember the rosy early days.

[carl.hops]

I guess all one can do is keep optimism at the forefront of their mind, I've always tried to stay positive when those little annoyances you experience here pop up, maybe its just someone arriving after you then cutting in line, or a scornful look on the train, but for every one of those moments I think of the smiles I get from time to time when I'm seen holding hands with Yakun or when I'm doing my best to speak with a local and they have a jovial laugh at my attempt. Overall I have a really good life, things in the past put that in perspective. I'll stay aware of the cynic in me and continue learning about this fascinating place.

[GZBILL]

...My opinion is that GZBill offers a cynical, but legitimate perspective as an ex-pat in China. I think he has been there for a considerable amount of time, and is fluent in Cantonese, at least. An asset to The Candle.

 

 

Bill is the real deal. He's here, and has the value of personal experience. I can see how any American would become cynical living in China over a long period of time. I'm sure if he thinks back hard enough, he will remember the rosy early days.

 

I do remember them ... and most of those rosy days do continue until now. But not all.

 

Someone mentioned or implied that racism and discrimination are not problems exclusive to China. This is true. But racism and discrimination in China are institutionalized to such an extent that, in many cases, it defies logic.

 

There are quite a few people on this forum currently living and working in China. I dare any of them to walk into any bank in China -- even the so-called foreign banks -- and apply on your own for a credit card. 99.9% of the time, in the end your application will be declined because -- and they usually will put it bluntly -- you are not Chinese.

 

Up until just recently, you could not open cellular service on any terms other than pre-pay if you were not Chinese.

 

Try getting home phone, gas or electricity service in your name even if you happen to own the home.