Relationships and money issues - East and West

[yemmie]

Hi All,

 

I have been wrestling with this problem for some time and I was hoping that someone can help me understand my girl a little better. We are now in the gathering documents and filling out forms stage of a fiancee visa to bring her and her son to America. I have nearly everything I need now to begin the process. I just came home from my third visit to her.

 

For the most part, we get along very well. Our one biggest problem is disagreements over money. I am not rich, but I am not poor either. I have a good paying job, some savings in the bank, and some investments that are growing slowly. I have tried to explain my financial circumstances thoroughly and accurately on more than one occasion, but I'm still not sure she really gets it.

 

My girl had, at one time been a fairly successful businesswoman in China, but her business has faltered. Now, she has big dreams of studying international business in America, eventually opening an international import-export business in America and China, and becoming rich. Meanwhile, she has also been playing the stock market in China. I have agreed to help pay for hers and her son's education when they come here. And, although I don't really care about getting rich, I have said that I would be willing to try to help us do so if that is what she wants.

 

She says she loves me and wants to come to America, but she is also worried that I will always say no to her on issues of money and will tire of her after she comes here and will throw her out. Hence, she has been trying very hard to find a way to become financially solvent before she comes here. She is going to school shortly to study yoga instruction. When she completes her course, she will have a certificate that allows her to teach in both China and America.

 

I have given her a little money two times already, once to prop up her business, the other to study yoga. And I have not been tight with money during my visits. Now, she wants me to give her more to invest in the Chinese stock market. She insists that she can double our money in one year. For the most part, I believe she is sincere, but, even if she is, I am reluctant to risk more money because I feel we may need it to help to bring her and her son here and to live on, educate, etc. I am not sure that we will be able to spend the money we make from the stock market in China here in America (i.e. the Chinese government will allow the money to be taken out). Also, nothing is foolproof. I worry that the market could go sour. She insists that there is no risk, that she can make money this way. She says I love money more than her. I now worry that maybe she loves money more than me.

 

So now, I am trying to put all of this in perspective. I can understand how she might be afraid to leave China and come to a strange land and become totally dependent on me for a while, but she sounds as though she wants to instantly step into wealth without having to work for it. I love this woman, but I am not a big big risk taker, and I sometimes feel that I am becoming a big disappointment to her.

 

Please help me put all of this in perspective. Is this just an example of Chinese pragmatism - wanting to bas marriage on love + a solid financial foundation - or is something ugly happening here?

 

Thanks

[lostinblue]

Hi All,

 

I have been wrestling with this problem for some time and I was hoping that someone can help me understand my girl a little better. We are now in the gathering documents and filling out forms stage of a fiancee visa to bring her and her son to America. I have nearly everything I need now to begin the process. I just came home from my third visit to her.

 

For the most part, we get along very well. Our one biggest problem is disagreements over money. I am not rich, but I am not poor either. I have a good paying job, some savings in the bank, and some investments that are growing slowly. I have tried to explain my financial circumstances thoroughly and accurately on more than one occasion, but I'm still not sure she really gets it.

 

My girl had, at one time been a fairly successful businesswoman in China, but her business has faltered. Now, she has big dreams of studying international business in America, eventually opening an international import-export business in America and China, and becoming rich. Meanwhile, she has also been playing the stock market in China. I have agreed to help pay for hers and her son's education when they come here. And, although I don't really care about getting rich, I have said that I would be willing to try to help us do so if that is what she wants.

 

She says she loves me and wants to come to America, but she is also worried that I will always say no to her on issues of money and will tire of her after she comes here and will throw her out. Hence, she has been trying very hard to find a way to become financially solvent before she comes here. She is going to school shortly to study yoga instruction. When she completes her course, she will have a certificate that allows her to teach in both China and America.

 

I have given her a little money two times already, once to prop up her business, the other to study yoga. And I have not been tight with money during my visits. Now, she wants me to give her more to invest in the Chinese stock market. She insists that she can double our money in one year. For the most part, I believe she is sincere, but, even if she is, I am reluctant to risk more money because I feel we may need it to help to bring her and her son here and to live on, educate, etc. I am not sure that we will be able to spend the money we make from the stock market in China here in America (i.e. the Chinese government will allow the money to be taken out). Also, nothing is foolproof. I worry that the market could go sour. She insists that there is no risk, that she can make money this way. She says I love money more than her. I now worry that maybe she loves money more than me.

 

So now, I am trying to put all of this in perspective. I can understand how she might be afraid to leave China and come to a strange land and become totally dependent on me for a while, but she sounds as though she wants to instantly step into wealth without having to work for it. I love this woman, but I am not a big big risk taker, and I sometimes feel that I am becoming a big disappointment to her.

 

Please help me put all of this in perspective. Is this just an example of Chinese pragmatism - wanting to bas marriage on love + a solid financial foundation - or is something ugly happening here?

 

Thanks

This is from my wife yan. As you are not married yet you need to draw the line as far as spending money within china. As there maybe a bubble within the chinese market invest only the amount you would feel comfortable in losing, You are fully aware how much you need to support your lifestyle here. You sound like you handle money well. follow your head. Many people in China think america is paved with gold. This is her problem right now. When she arrives here she will understand better your financial situation.

Yan brought some money with her and we have invested some of that on the hongkong market. Less than what she desired and we had our first major argument over this. As this was her money I felt I could not totaly say no to this investment.So we compromised. She is certain we can make money on this also. Wish us luck I am certain you will get more advice on your situation.

[lostinblue]

now that I have had more time to think about your post let me add some comments. If she has the ability to get an international business degree here in the US. A lot of doors would be open for her in this country. A man who was in my Chinese class a few years ago was married to a woman from china . She had no advanced learning in China due to the cultural revolution. She also studied international business here. and landed a job for a fortune 500 company. Now she travels between the US and China often . To have some one with a degree like that and who understands the political enviroment within a Chinese company is highly sought after here in the US. In China very few older people return to a university. Here it is not uncommon. I would stress to her that if she has the will to get through our degree process. she would be very employable.I have no doubt that the woman mentioned above is pulling a 6 figure paycheck. Would that be rich enough for your girl?

[david_dawei]

IMO, much of what I hear is not that uncommon for some chinese ladies...

- being financial secure is a HUGH issue;

- being a contributor towards making that happen is important

- import/export business... many think they can do this

- education is important; the cost and time to complete it may be a surprise to her.

- quickly jumping into an idea is simply to 'act' upon what they think; often there is a 'hard wire' from thinking to doing.

- accusing a man of loving money over her is simply because the money is being put 'first' as the priority; she is not the priority...

- accusing her of loving money over a man is a natural western thought on some level.. but I think it misses some of the aforementioned points.

 

I'm not so sure that certification in yoga is very worthwhile for her... but she is doing that since it is probably easy and fast (relative to other skills).. but I would recommend she do something more in the day spa like business since it is relatively easy to get licenses here in the US for that and it naturally can lead to opening a business.

 

Lastly, on the inherent risk taking: The relationships we pursue are generally risky in the first place; who truly knows the outcome of the time and money we invest to have a long lasting relationship.

 

My opinion would be to let her have the money for investment... Here are at least two ways you could approach it:

1) simply give it outright and explain the implications of not having the money later;

2) present it more like a budgetary approach; let her know how much she can have, which she is free to spend as she wants, but that it is available to her for either china or the US... that if it doesn't work out as an investment in china, then there is nothing around for the US;

 

My guess is she might simply opt to take it now since it would be more consistent with what I'm hearing of her. My wife did a similar thing and I let her have the money; she then responded, "now think like this money doesn't exist..." I actually thought that was a very good comment of hers since that got me to stop thinking about whether it was worthwhile and working out... if we never see the money again, then it simply didn't exist anyway.

 

I left it up to her to experience either the success or failure; She's an adult and either I think she has a mind to understand some of the risk and accept the responsibility of the failure or I don't.

 

Of course, the final feeling to overcome is: Is she in it for the money alone? you have to figure that out yourself... the problem is, the desire to make money and be active in it's success is a part of her; not a right vs wrong issue... so separating out that from any mal-intent is something you'll need to see and either attempt some risk (ie: let go of the doubt) or draw a line (ie: she could simply take this as doubt and you'll have to try and overcome that perception)...

[tonado]

Invest in something you are comfortable. Past return is not guarantee for future return. If you want to invest in China, do it yourself with a fund here. Don't let her invest for you because you know nothing about it.

 

http://www.smartmoney.com/top25funds/?nav=dropTab

[jim_julian]

Yemmie, you sound like you have your head on straight, a practical guy who knows there are cultural (as well as individual) differences and is trying to understand.

 

It sounds like your lady is a rather volatile person ... she won't change, make sure you can accept this aspect of her personality.

 

Yes financial stability is very very important to a Chinese lady. Many are selfless when it comes to achieving that stability first for their family and then for themselves. It is not surprising that she might put "love", in all its myriad definitions, in second place.

 

It makes no sense to me to invest in the Chinese stock market. For her to say their is no risk is ridiculous ... it is high risk. The factor of getting money out of China is also significant and fraught with risk. I would say no to this with an explanation about the risk and sticking with investments that you are comfortable with as you build for the furture ... which hopefully includes her. It is OK for a man to be strong, it is not OK to be inconsiderate, disrespectful, or unfeeling. She will appreciate your strength if her heart is in the right place.

 

You are the only one who can judge the complexity of this relationship and decide what path to take. Good luck and best wishes to you both.

[Joanne]

You are the only one who can judge the complexity of this relationship and decide what path to take. Good luck and best wishes to you both.

 

I have one comment to make:

Don't get tangled in the argument: if you don't listen to me, you don't love me.

It would be difficult to get out of it.

[Bigguy_33]

You are the only one who can judge the complexity of this relationship and decide what path to take. Good luck and best wishes to you both.

 

I have one comment to make:

Don't get tangled in the argument: if you don't listen to me, you don't love me.

It would be difficult to get out of it.

 

 

How do you avoid it or reply to that line ?

[yemmie]

You are the only one who can judge the complexity of this relationship and decide what path to take. Good luck and best wishes to you both.

 

I have one comment to make:

Don't get tangled in the argument: if you don't listen to me, you don't love me.

It would be difficult to get out of it.

 

 

How do you avoid it or reply to that line ?

Thanks so much everyone for your kind words and encouragement. If I were dealing with an American woman, I would have already ended our relationship by now. As it is, after reading all of the posts others have written to me on the various sites, I now feel that a lot of our difficulties are being driven by the cultural differences, some more by the fact that men and women in any culture are different, and some by the fact that she just is more driven and more materially ambitious than I am. Add to that the lack of understanding of how far American dollars go in America compared to converted American dollars spent in China, and I'm sure my girl has a hard time understanding why I am being so careful (stingy). But at the end of the day after talking more about this, I feel more strongly that she is sincere in her feelings for me. Certainly I feel better about it than I did a few days ago. So, though I still feel just a little cautious, I find my trust in her is returning. I think we are in for a rough ride, but I think it can have a happy ending for us if we both are willing to try to understand each other and maybe compromise a little too. I know we still we need to talk and talk and talk, but I think there is more hope now. Yesterday, one thing really struck me when we were discussing these issues. I told her that I would only say no to her when I felt it was really necessary. At that moment she looked as though I meant she will never have any say, and I will always control everything and always say no. But then I added that, after we were married, I would not spend a lot of money on big things if she did not agree that what I wanted to spend it on was a good idea either. She really seemed surprised. I think she had always thought that I felt that my money is my money, period. Not so, it will be our money, and that means we both must agree on how it is spent. After I told her this, we ran out of time because I had to go to work. I hope that I did not read her reaction wrongly. I hope that she truly is beginning to understand that what I do or don't do is for us, not for me, and that I really do value her opinion and I really want our marriage to be a partnership. So, wish us luck. I hope you won't mind if I continue to talk about this and other issues here. I find that all the imput I receive from the nice people here really helps. I hope that I can help others here as well.

[SirLancelot]

Hi yemmie. Welcome to CFL.

 

I think it would be helpful if you could or would disclose from what area your SO is from in China. I'm gathering from your original post that she's probably from a bigger city, but I'm not certain. It would help to establish a context for her overall actions and demeanor if we knew what part of China she's from.

 

Good luck.

[Guest Rob & Jin]

At the risk of everyone disagreeing with me, I respectfully submit that, IMHO, compatibility is not a cultural issue.

 

When I see someone say that "for the most part we get along," especially if it is in the courtship phase of a relationship, I am tempted not to be as careful with my words as Jim has been.

 

You asked for opinions, so my opinion is that you should proceed with your eyes wide open. Is this relationship a fit, and it may well be, or is it a recipe for disappointment or worse. You are the only one who is in a position to answer this question.

 

My suggestion is that you take as much time as you need to answer this question for yourself. Three trips does not a relationship make. Best of luck.

 

I agree with TL, plus i will add you dont need a " license" to teach yoga in the US, its not a state regulated profession. But if she teaches it here she will need insurance against being sued. Good luck

[yemmie]

Hi yemmie. Welcome to CFL.

 

I think it would be helpful if you could or would disclose from what area your SO is from in China. I'm gathering from your original post that she's probably from a bigger city, but I'm not certain. It would help to establish a context for her overall actions and demeanor if we knew what part of China she's from.

 

Good luck.

My girl is from Xiangfan, Hubei, so yes, she is from a big city.

 

Also, thank you toplaw for your information about teaching yoga, and your other comments as well. Actually, I had already thought about the licensing issue too. I figured we would wait and see 1. if the place she teaches covers her, or 2. how expensive it would be to carry our own insurance. Compatibility - Yes, ultimately, you are right. If we are truly compatible, then the cultural differences will be overcome. That is what my thread was/is all about, trying to separate the two so I can know what to do.

[PhoenixRising]

Hi All,

 

I have been wrestling with this problem for some time and I was hoping that someone can help me understand my girl a little better. We are now in the gathering documents and filling out forms stage of a fiancee visa to bring her and her son to America. I have nearly everything I need now to begin the process. I just came home from my third visit to her.

 

For the most part, we get along very well. Our one biggest problem is disagreements over money. I am not rich, but I am not poor either. I have a good paying job, some savings in the bank, and some investments that are growing slowly. I have tried to explain my financial circumstances thoroughly and accurately on more than one occasion, but I'm still not sure she really gets it.

 

My girl had, at one time been a fairly successful businesswoman in China, but her business has faltered. Now, she has big dreams of studying international business in America, eventually opening an international import-export business in America and China, and becoming rich. Meanwhile, she has also been playing the stock market in China. I have agreed to help pay for hers and her son's education when they come here. And, although I don't really care about getting rich, I have said that I would be willing to try to help us do so if that is what she wants.

 

She says she loves me and wants to come to America, but she is also worried that I will always say no to her on issues of money and will tire of her after she comes here and will throw her out. Hence, she has been trying very hard to find a way to become financially solvent before she comes here. She is going to school shortly to study yoga instruction. When she completes her course, she will have a certificate that allows her to teach in both China and America.

 

I have given her a little money two times already, once to prop up her business, the other to study yoga. And I have not been tight with money during my visits. Now, she wants me to give her more to invest in the Chinese stock market. She insists that she can double our money in one year. For the most part, I believe she is sincere, but, even if she is, I am reluctant to risk more money because I feel we may need it to help to bring her and her son here and to live on, educate, etc. I am not sure that we will be able to spend the money we make from the stock market in China here in America (i.e. the Chinese government will allow the money to be taken out). Also, nothing is foolproof. I worry that the market could go sour. She insists that there is no risk, that she can make money this way. She says I love money more than her. I now worry that maybe she loves money more than me.

 

So now, I am trying to put all of this in perspective. I can understand how she might be afraid to leave China and come to a strange land and become totally dependent on me for a while, but she sounds as though she wants to instantly step into wealth without having to work for it. I love this woman, but I am not a big big risk taker, and I sometimes feel that I am becoming a big disappointment to her.

 

Please help me put all of this in perspective. Is this just an example of Chinese pragmatism - wanting to bas marriage on love + a solid financial foundation - or is something ugly happening here?

 

Thanks

Been there with other ladies in the past. You love money more then me? When this was said to me once I told this past love you love spending money more then you love me. I answered a question with a question. She told me that I did not know how to love. She was a very self centered and spoiled woman. If you had the cash you had her undying love as long as you aloud her to be in charge of your revenue sharing program. This never happened with me and nor did I get a call from AMEX telling me to leave home without it.

Your SO asked you for money to prop up her business. Why? Some people always wish to have a business but they do not know how to manage money very well and they generally have a business failure. The lure of owning a business is that they think it is big and easy money to be made. They find out the hard way that it is not. As for playing the Chinese Stock market that is a gamble by itself. Any stockmarket is. You must make the choice if you think that financial desire is ahead her undying love then you better really think about this one. If your personal finances suffers from a cold your love life will most likely catch pneumonia.

[chrisnhong]

Ever since Deng XiaoPing told the chinese people "To be rich is glorious", it's been the goal of most of the chinese population. Get used to it. What they haven't worked out yet is that money doesn't necessarily equate to happiness. Yes, they've been told, but probably suspect it's a lie.

 

1. The Shanghai stock market has increased 170% this year.

2. The Hong Kong stock market is undergoing a similar rise now, in the expectation that mainland Chinese will be allowed to invest there directly.

3. The bank accounts give less than 4% interest. Given inflation ~10%, if you place money in the bank, you lose.

4. Real estate is rising at a similar rate to stocks.

 

Given asset price inflation because of the money sloshing around in China, it's a high risk/high gain proposition to invest there.

 

You've told her you're not rich. She probably doesn't believe you and won't until she reaches the US.

 

To cut this short, give her what you think you can afford. DON'T BUDGE FROM THIS POSITION. Watch her response carefully because it will tell you much about whether you can get along. Remember, money doesn't make you happy, but fighting about it certainly can make you unhappy.

[SirLancelot]

3. The bank accounts give less than 4% interest. Given inflation ~10%, if you place money in the bank, you lose.

4. Real estate is rising at a similar rate to stocks.

 

 

Not quite. GDP/GNP growth rate is not equivalent to inflation rate. While China has been expanding it's GDP at over 10% yearly, inflation has been nowhere near 10%.

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1670255,00.html

 

China's Next Big Export: Inflation

Thursday, Oct. 11, 2007

 

Although it may not be evident at the local Wal-Mart yet, these forces may already be in play. Demand from China, along with other fast-growing emerging economies, has driven up the price of oil and a wide range of other commodities for the past several years. But what's really worrying many economists is the sudden appearance of relatively high inflation within China and the ripples that might cause abroad. Despite five interest-rate increases this year by China's central bank, the country's consumer price index has been stubbornly on the rise. In August, inflation climbed to a 6.5% annual rate, the fastest clip in more than 10 years.

 

In the past 10 years, the inflation rate of China hasn't ever reached 6.5% until now, let alone anywhere near 10%.

 

But chrisnhong's general thesis is sound. Inflation is going up quicker than the interest rate paid to consumers by the banks, and so one is becoming poorer by putting one's money solely in bank savings/cd accounts. But many people are heavily invested in the stock market now and they've making a killing. Until the bubble bursts, China is minting new millionaires by the day.

 

My mom has asked that my dad wire more funds to her in China to be more fully invested in China. There is indeed high risk but the rewards are phenomenal.