Am I in my right mind?

[Joanne]

Well, I am trying to sublease an apartment from a law student in NY. I have being prompt in sending him the deposit, all paper documents etc. I have agreed to his higher than market rent (due to our special needs). So when I read his email about leaving things in the apartment and trying to convince me by telling me he didn't charge me enough. I got fed up, and started this "fight". Now I don't know where to go. I wonder if I am in a wrong mind. Please help me diagnose my problem, only if you have time, after reading the following email correspondence.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike

To: Joanne

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: Sub-lease

 

Joanne,

 

Would you mind if I use some of the linen closet to store some of my things that you will not need in the apartment. Rather than getting storage for pots and pans and the additional things you do not need within the apartment, I was hoping it would be okay if I could use the linen closet to store some of my personal belongings. There is plenty of closet space available to you and a lot of drawers within the Bedroom to store your own things. Let me know. I also found out that I am being charged more than what we agreed for the internet and basic tv, but because we have already agreed to a price of the rent I will not ask you to pay the additional costs.

 

Let me know if that is okay with you and R (note: my husband).

 

Regards

Mike

 

________________

On 4/22/07, Joanne wrote:

 

It should be fine with us, Mike, as long as there is still space left for us to use. However, we should not be liable if somebody took your items away from the apartment while you are away. (Note: I was moody when writing above. This sentence certainly opened a can of worm )

 

Joanne

 

___________

From: Mike

To: Joanne

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:31 PM

Subject: Re: Sub-lease

 

Well that doesn't make much sense, because most of my furniture and personal belongings are within the apartment. And by you saying that that makes me uncomfortable with all my belongings. All I am saying is that I will use some of the space, there is more than enough space for your whole family to use. There are an additional 2 large closets with a whole 5 drawer chest for your use. I am only putting in a suitcase and those items such as pots and pans that are not required by you. I can't not agree that you will not be liable if somebody took my belongings from the apartment. Are you in need of the dishes, utensils, and glasses? I believe you said you wanted them in our first meeting. Regardless of if I use half the linen closet or not for my personal belongings you are liable for all my other items within the apartment.

 

Mike

 

________

From: Joanne

To: Mike

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: Sub-lease

 

Why are you so upset, Mike?

 

As I said, we don't mind that you use the closets space as long as there are still space left. Since there are still space left, there should be no problem.

 

The second sentence about liability is just to remind you that don't leave any valuable items in the apartment because we will not be able to keep track. As for furnatures etc, those are all listed in the agreement which we agree to pay for the damanges we would cause. It you think from my point, would you be worried that you would be safeguarding something which you don't even know what they are?

 

Please recall all transactions between us, have we always being doing what we promised to do? I really don't want to have an upset situation to start with our leasing term. I would like you to have a relaxed summer knowing that your apartment is in safe hands.

 

Best regards,

Joanne

 

________

On 4/23/07, Joanne wrote:

 

I am thinking there should be a practical solution to this problem. Would that be a good idea if you pack, label (#1, #2, etc.) and seal the containers where your personal items are in and give us a total counts. We will not touch those containers. Our family will not touch your things. What I am afraid is a thief gets into the apartment (even though the chance is slim). Do we need to consider such possibility or should we just assume it will not happen?

 

----------

From: Mike

To: Joanne

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:11 AM

Subject: Re: Fw: Sub-lease

 

Joanne,

 

I will get back to you in the evening. Please do not assume that I am upset, because I am not.

 

Regards

Mike

 

___________

On 4/23/07, Joanne wrote:

 

OK.

 

----------

From: Mike

To: Joanne

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:04 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: Sub-lease

 

Joanne,

 

In regards to your solution, I still don't see how that makes sense. Realize that this is a sub-lease for a furnished apartment, not an empty one. My personal belongings are present within the apartment regardless of your use. For me to put them and label them in containers is too much of a burden and unreasonable at this time because I am preparing for my final examinations. Please also understand that this is my apartment that I wish to come back to it, so for me to pack and unload them is unreasonable especially when it is a furnished apartment sub-lease. I can let you know what is going to be in there- which is mainly my winter clothing, ornaments that decorate my coffee table, my hookah, dvd player, playstation and its accessories, printer, and pots and pans. One suggestion is that I can completely close off one of the three closets, mainly the linen closet, which I feel is not a good idea, because it is a waste of space, because I will not be using it all, probably only half. In which case, we can agree that I will use half of the closet and all the terms and conditions of the sub-lease terms would apply, including that fact that if they were taken away (to not say that would leave all other things that I have not listed as the main items to be vulnerable to loss/damage, and that was not my intent) you would be liable. It is to apply to all items within the apartment. I mean I have a three decorative frames in my living room which I do not have the strength, time, or desire to remove, but are to be included within the terms, though not explicitly stated are within the meaning of what is to be included. I understand that you are looking at this from a very lawyer-like perspective in looking at all possibilities, but please understand that not all have that background in New York, and we have to remain reasonable, most people would not agree to such a thing. Looking at mere possibilities of theft within a safe neighborhood, on the 7th floor of large apartment building which is monitored by CCTV, security and the doorman, is something I find to be a little over the top, and something that I do not think warrants that we start making distinctions on what are to be included and what is not, because all in all, it is all included in terms of what you are liable for. Please understand that I have been reasonable and more than generous by including many things in the rental price, but please lets not take away a safeguard of my property. I will see if I can find a friend within the neighborhood who may not mind taking up some of my personal belongings, but in either way you are responsible for the contents of the apartment and have time to inspect or ask what each item contains, etc. Do not think that I was angry or upset, I understand where you are coming from, but I do not feel it would be in my best interest to allow such a loophole of that nature. I am sorry if I sounded as if I was angry or upset, but most of the time one can not understand the tone of written emails. Let me know what you think Joanne and R.

 

Best Regards

Mike

 

________

On 4/23/07 Joanne wrote:

 

Mike,

 

I feel this is mostly a trust issue.

 

We subleased our apartment before, and will do so again this summer. In the past, we also left almost all our personal items in the apartment, stored out of the way of our sub-tenent. He agreed for us to use that space and we trust the our sub-tenent will not get into those items. No labling. No counting the items. We didn't asked our sub-tenent to be responsible for those items, but felt grateful that he let us use some of the apartment space.

 

In fact, when we mutually agreed to the sublease, we sized each other up and felt comfortable with each other. We did ask for a deposit to cover any possible damages to the funiture he used in our leasing agreement, even though at the end nothing happened for us to withhold anything from him. That was how it worked for us.

 

I understand that you feel it would be waste of time labling the containers. However, when you say that I am responsible for your personal items, you can imagine how many loopholes I could get myself into? I have to admit, I am a little upset now. I hope there is a sensible solution to this issue. I don't mind that you store all items in one of the closet and just seal that closet.

 

I know how stressful you feel in the mid of your review session. I don't intend to cause trouble.

 

Best wishes,

Joanne

Edited April 24, 2007 by Joanne (see edit history)

[Randy W]

Well, I am trying to sublease an apartment from a law student in NY. I have being prompt in sending him the deposit, all paper documents etc. I have agreed to his higher than market rent (due to our special needs). So when I read his email about leaving things in the apartment and trying to convince me by telling me he didn't charge me enough. I got fed up, and started this "fight". Now I don't know where to go. I wonder if I am in a wrong mind. Please help me diagnose my problem, only if you have time, after reading the following email correspondence.

 

 

 

Joanne, I'll try to read this thoroughly later, but it sounds to me like you are both making mole-hills out of mole-hills. He's not trying to get more money from you, and he doesn't seem overly concerned about his things.

 

I think you're both just reacting to what the other said, and not really listening to what's being said. Try to lighten up with him and I think you'll be okay.

 

Again, though, I'll read more thoroughly when I get a chance.

[Randy W]

 

I think you're both just reacting to what the other said, and not really listening to what's being said. Try to lighten up with him and I think you'll be okay.

 

 

Yeah.

[Joanne]

Thank you very much, Randy. I backed off. Although he still insists that I will be liable even though we have agreed to have him store all thing in one closet which I will not open. I just let the issue go.

 

You didn't know how much items he has already listed in the sublease agreement for us to be liable, and then add... all other items left in the apartment. This is why I was so nervous.

 

We had a chat (or fight) half an hour ago. I gave up because he could speak nonstop. I would have to literally demand, "please listen to me for a minute". Funny thing is that he thought I was lawyer-like, but he admitted that he showed the email to one of his professors. So I would be up against a professional if I insist.

 

I don't know if Don reads this. I hope he is not upset with my wasting the CFL band width.

 

Don - you may take out the whole thread if you wish.

Edited April 24, 2007 by Joanne (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

Take photographs of all of his stuff so you can prove it is in the same condition when you leave. Put a lock on his storage space and keep it locked. It appears you are both overly concerned with coverning yourselves. Understandable since no one want to be liable for someone elses' things.

[sawadee]

Joanne,

 

I would suggest make a list of the major items then have both parties signed on that list. And make him lock that all, thus you might make it clear of any further responsibilities.

Edited April 24, 2007 by sawadee (see edit history)

[David&Wendy]

This is the best way to protect yourself.

 

The day before you move in (or the same day depends on schedule)

 

Step 1) Both you and Mike go to the apartment you are subleasing. Do a "walk-through" together to agree on the status of the apartment before you move into the apartment. Document any pre-existing damage or conditions with the apartment.

Step 2) Take a digital camera with you to take pictures of what the apartment looks like now. I mean everything outside door, every room, floors/carpets, the kitchen, bathroom.

Step 3) Put those pictures of Dotphoto, Snapfish, etc so you can store them as proof. These two website can send you physical prints if the need ever arose.

Step 4) Give copies of these pictures to Mike on a CD.

 

Now both of you have proof of what the apartment looked like before you moved into and took possession of the apartment.

 

This will help you resolve any issues over maintenance or supposed damage when you at some future date move out of the apartment.

[Stone]

In my opinion, this is WAY TOO MUCH complicated! If I were you, I would back out and cancel the sublease, then find another one with more reasonable terms. Maybe you can try one of the Chinese scholars in your area.

 

In 2004, I subleased a furnished room from an MIT visiting scholar (a Chinese man) for 4 months. In our corresponding emails, we discussed about the length of the sublease and prices including utilities. In the email, he kindly offered me to use all of his furniture. Although we never mentioned about liability of damaging/thefts to his furniture, DVD players, discs, TVs, etc, we both presumed I would be liable for NOTHING, because all of those items were JUNK. Yes, they were all literally worth very little money if nothing. Except for TVs and DVD players which probably had been bought used, all furniture were likely inherited from the prior tenants, donated by friends or even picked up from the street after someone had moved.

 

I did not want ANY liabilities. I believe you set yourself up with too much trouble. This guy is very difficult to deal with.

[Stone]

That MIT visiting scholar had 4 or 5 laptop computers. Before he left for China, he had taken away those laptops and other expensive items to his lab at MIT and safely locked them up in his lab.

[Cathy]

In my opinion, this is WAY TOO MUCH complicated! If I were you, I would back out and cancel the sublease, then find another one with more reasonable terms.

I agree with Stone. I haven't heard of any sublease so difficulty. Those words like he is doing a sublease and can take back the apartment any time is unreasonable. It shows that he can/will break the contract any time. Why make a deal with him? Don't be afraid by his saying that he showed the sublease to his professor. He didn't tell you what the professor said. Having professional advice is helpful, but in our daily life the commen sense works well.

[Joanne]

Thank you, Carl, sawadee, David, stone and Cathy, for your kind advices! I tend to agree that this is a complicated deal and a bit risky, but I have already sent out the signed agreement, and had sent the deposit long time ago. It would be too expensive to back off at this point. I will take precautions when moving in, like Carl and David suggested, and just hope no worries would come true. Somehow, my husband agrees with Randy that I, myself, made too much of a deal out of this. He feels that Mike's requirement is not totally unreasonable. Mike is a foreign student (not Chinese). This is the first time he subleases, so he might be a little uncertain about us, too. He might be afraid that we would move out with his personal things if he agreed that we are not liable. Who knows, we might end up to be friends.

 

I am also going through the process of subleasing out our apartment in Philly. It is a completely different picture. I subsidized the rent (due to market, really) and the girl pays 3 month rent in advance. I feel so generous and she is easy going. I don't hold her liable to anything, not because we use junks but because I can't imagine her capacity of causing any unpardonable damage. And our sensible furnitures are solid, inexpensive and for use not for exhibition. I am pretty much sure that we are going to make friends out of this subleasing deal.

 

Thanks again, my friends!

Edited April 24, 2007 by Joanne (see edit history)

[Joanne]

Thanks, Don. I think you put it right: house sitter, except that we are paying $500/month more to him than he is paying his landlord with the added services like phone, internet. We accepted this price because it was not easy to find one which would work for us so well.

 

If anyone like to know what happened next, here are the emails afterwards:

 

On 4/23/07, Mike wrote:

 

Joanne,

 

There is no reason to be upset. Everything in this apartment is mostly my personal items. I do not believe anyone else would agree to make distinctions on where liability lies. It has to cover all of the apartment in terms of my personal belongings. What you did in your prior sub-lease is whatever you negotiated there. I mean this is very common practice in a sub-lease agreement for a furnished apartment. I even consulted my property professor and she agreed that what you have asked for does not make sense at all. This is a furnished sublease apartment and contains all my personal belongings. She was the one who suggested closing off a closet with my personal belongings, but even she agreed that you will still be liable for all my belongings in the apartment in terms of loss or damage. I know that nothing will happen or there will be no theft. I have that trust in you and in the system here. So this is really pointless. The main thing is that what you are asking (comment: I didn't know I asked anything to be added to the agreement) just does not exist in such an agreement. I can not make distinctions on where liability should lie or where it shouldn't. Most sub-leases in New York do not even remove most items that will not be used, they will just give you a closet and close off certain parts, but still hold you responsible for the premises. The sub-lease arrangement is based on trust and understanding. I have total faith in your family and so I really know most of this is really unnecessary. Like I said, I will try to get some of my personal belongings moved to my friend's place, but all other items that I can not remove, or whatever else is in the apartment, you are still liable for it. There is not much here anyways- we are only talking about 3 frames, a mirror on the wall, lamps, ironing board/iron, printer, hookah, and those things I mentioned before. My winter clothes we will be left behind as well. I mean who is going to want my sweaters? (If I was told those are the things, I would not have worried. I was more afraid he put things somewhere else but thought they were supposed to be at home.) All I am saying is that I can not make a distinction on where liability lies, it has to be throughout, as long as your lease period. A way to think about it is like when you stay at a hotel, you a liable for loss or damages to their property, but you can't ask them to remove the T.V. or other items because you don't want to be held liable for the items in the room (comment: In the agreement I agreed to sign, I agree to be liable to those things already). I mean its not completely the same but the logic is very much identical. Don't be upset Joanne, I really am not trying to make this a big deal. What loopholes exist for you? You are sub-letting- you are getting a nice place at a nice price, with some added responsibility of living in that premises. I really do not understand the reason for being upset. (comments: , he must thought I have never seen a nicer place. I wonder how did he get such an idea. I accepted his asked price without even bargining with him.)

 

Give me a call whenever if you are feeling down about this we can figure out a practical solution to this, but please do not get upset or anxious on these matters, I personally do not have time to even think about this at this time. Its my first year of law school and its really tough so please understand that I really just don't want this hurdles. If you want a trustworthly relationship certain things must exist.

 

 

After a telephone conversation, Mike wrote again:

 

Ok Joanne,

 

It was nice talking to you today and good that we came to a solution. I will basically give you a list of those items that are within the closet that you are liable for. All those other things that are apparently visible will be your liability. Other things that are not visible and unmentioned of within the list within the closet, you will not be liable for them.

 

Regards

Mike

 

 

Interesting thing I have observed is that, since there has been no other means of communication being used between the next to last email and the very beginning, you can see how much presumptions has been made to our opinions, particularly his assumption about my opinion and about me.

 

I feel uncomfortable reading such emails because there are certain points which upset me, but yet I don't want to argue against them, and lead the conversation to somewhere else. Yet by staying silent, it seems I have agreed whatever he said. You know what I mean? Anyway, I just ignore him for now.

[Dennis143]

I am certainly no lawyer, but I do know contracts and terms and conditions of those contracts.

 

Throughout his email he repeated that you are LIABLE for his personal belongings. And, yes, ...by staying silent, it seems I have agreed whatever he said. , you are giving him an implied consent of agreement.

 

I suppose you could still back out and demand your money back, as he added terms that were not part of your original agreement; otherwise, you will just need to accept his terms and hope for the best.

 

I am guessing that it boils down to what is more important to you; leasing the apartment that you state wasn't easy to come by or accepting liability for damages or loss of his personal property: (but even she agreed that you will still be liable for all my belongings in the apartment in terms of loss or damage.)

 

These emails can also be considered as evidence of a written contract, in a court of law.

[Randy W]

Take some pictures of everything that might be "lost or damaged", and give him a copy.

 

Don't make a big deal of it - just enough to reasonably cover the items. Send him either hardcopies, or on a disk, with a delivery receipt from the post office.

 

He seems way too anal, but he may just be reacting to what you said. Mailing the pictures should keep it simple.

 

No, you're not liable for whatever little junk he may think he left behind.

[Joanne]

Thanks!

 

I just told my husband that I will be no business woman.

H: how so

I: I make decisions too hastily

H: I thought you were very serious in your negociation (He overheard me arguing with Mike over the phone while trying to sleep).

(I thought in my mind: but I am always the one who give in.)

 

Note: Above are translated from original Chinese conversation. I am using CFL to practice my English .

Edited April 25, 2007 by Joanne (see edit history)