Birth Certificate Question - Is Certified/Translated Hukou Enough?

[Spidercat]

While preping the documents for step one, submitting the I-130 application here in Bejing, I'm a bit confused about the birth certificate for my (Chinese) husband.

He was born in 1981 in Beijing, but there isn't a birth certificate - he only has the hukou. Will a certified/tranlated copy of it from the offical Chinese gov't office for this stuff (e.g. marriage licenses) suffice instead?

Also, his hukou is for his parent's house, but we've been living together for 9 years (and married for over 4 years) in rentals around Beijing. Will this address difference be an issue?

Many thanks!

[Randy W]

While preping the documents for step one, submitting the I-130 application here in Bejing, I'm a bit confused about the birth certificate for my (Chinese) husband.

 

He was born in 1981 in Beijing, but there isn't a birth certificate - he only has the hukou. Will a certified/tranlated copy of it from the offical Chinese gov't office for this stuff (e.g. marriage licenses) suffice instead?

 

Also, his hukou is for his parent's house, but we've been living together for 9 years (and married for over 4 years) in rentals around Beijing. Will this address difference be an issue?

 

Many thanks!

 

 

 

I'm getting the impression from some of the feedback we're getting about "birth certificates" that you DO NOT want to ask for an actual birth certificate. These WERE NOT ISSUED prior to 1991. The newer format requires proof of both PAternity and MAternity (usually by DNA testing). I'm not meaning to confuse your issue - if that doesn't ring a bell with you, just read on

 

 

The hukou is the only documentation that Chinese citizens had prior to the newer system. Take the hukou book to your Gong Zheng Chu and see if they won't issue what is known to Westerners as a "white book" or GongZhengShu 公证书 - a document generated according to Chinese standards for use overseas. The consulate WILL recognize this document. A translation of the hukou book itself is NOT what they are looking for, but MAY suffice if you are having trouble getting a white book generated.

 

Chinese Notarial Documents

 

 

Try http://travel.state..../fees_3272.html or go to http://travel.state.gov/ and search for "Reciprocity by Country" (they seem to change this periodically)

 

Most of the documents needed can be obtained from one of China's Notarial Offices (Gong Zheng Chu). All Chinese documentation to be used abroad is processed through the notary offices and issued in the form of notarial certificates. Notarial offices are located in all major Chinese cities and in rural county seats

 

The documents required are the GongZhengShu 公证书

 

Sample application for documents (your province or hukou may vary):

http://www.bnpo.gov....72115331419.doc

 

http://www.bnpo.gov....ide/detail1.asp

A discussion of the huji (or hukou 户口) system can be found at Hukou System. Chinese residents should go to their hukou for all notarial documents (birth, divorce, and/or single certificate, and police records). For the police record, one obtained at the hukou will cover all of China.

 

A notarial document will be in the standard white notarial booklet, have an official red seal, an English translation, and an attestation to the true translation.

 

If ANY document is unobtainable, you should submit a statement of WHY it is unobtainable, and what effort you made to obtain it.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Spidercat]

 

While preping the documents for step one, submitting the I-130 application here in Bejing, I'm a bit confused about the birth certificate for my (Chinese) husband.

 

He was born in 1981 in Beijing, but there isn't a birth certificate - he only has the hukou. Will a certified/tranlated copy of it from the offical Chinese gov't office for this stuff (e.g. marriage licenses) suffice instead?

 

Also, his hukou is for his parent's house, but we've been living together for 9 years (and married for over 4 years) in rentals around Beijing. Will this address difference be an issue?

 

Many thanks!

 

 

 

I'm getting the impression from some of the feedback we're getting about "birth certificates" that you DO NOT want to ask for an actual birth certificate. These WERE NOT ISSUED prior to 1991. The newer format requires proof of both PAternity and MAternity (usually by DNA testing). I'm not meaning to confuse your issue - if that doesn't ring a bell with you, just read on

 

 

The hukou is the only documentation that Chinese citizens had prior to the newer system. Take the hukou book to your Gong Zheng Chu and see if they won't issue what is known to Westerners as a "white book" or GongZhengShu 公证书 - a document generated according to Chinese standards for use overseas. The consulate WILL recognize this document. A translation of the hukou book itself is NOT what they are looking for, but MAY suffice if you are having trouble getting a white book generated.

 

Chinese Notarial Documents

 

 

Try http://travel.state..../fees_3272.html or go to http://travel.state.gov/ and search for "Reciprocity by Country" (they seem to change this periodically)

 

Most of the documents needed can be obtained from one of China's Notarial Offices (Gong Zheng Chu). All Chinese documentation to be used abroad is processed through the notary offices and issued in the form of notarial certificates. Notarial offices are located in all major Chinese cities and in rural county seats

 

The documents required are the GongZhengShu 公证书

 

Sample application for documents (your province or hukou may vary):

http://www.bnpo.gov....72115331419.doc

 

http://www.bnpo.gov....ide/detail1.asp

A discussion of the huji (or hukou 户口) system can be found at Hukou System. Chinese residents should go to their hukou for all notarial documents (birth, divorce, and/or single certificate, and police records). For the police record, one obtained at the hukou will cover all of China.

 

A notarial document will be in the standard white notarial booklet, have an official red seal, an English translation, and an attestation to the true translation.

 

If ANY document is unobtainable, you should submit a statement of WHY it is unobtainable, and what effort you made to obtain it.

 

Thank you! I just checked with the hubby and everything we're getting translated is the 公证书. He dropped it off yesterday (Tuesday) and it will be ready on Friday. :-)

Edited March 4, 2015 by Spidercat (see edit history)

[Doug]

Well now we have had 2 other white books of documents we had for my wife's birth. It isn't good enough. The consulate has now requested yet another. My wife says she understands, from what the Chinese girl who went through all the documents just before the interview told her. Since the white guy interviewer did not list another birth cert for her on the paperwork they gave us, we just ignored her words. I have listed the email from Guz in my Preliminary Approval thread

 

I will not understand just what it is she had her brother go do, and get it red stamped and all, until I get a scanned copy of her new white book. It does have to do with listing her parents and their birth dates. I have seen a scan of the paper she got, but now it is with the translator.

 

Basically it is supposed to be a certified, notarized, translation (white book) of a notarized birth certificate, if that makes sense. Nothing seems clear to me right now of just what GUZ wants. It would be a good question to ask them in Guz Speaks, if you ask me.

[Randy W]

Well now we have had 2 other white books of documents we had for my wife's birth. It isn't good enough. The consulate has now requested yet another. My wife says she understands, from what the Chinese girl who went through all the documents just before the interview told her. Since the white guy interviewer did not list another birth cert for her on the paperwork they gave us, we just ignored her words. I have listed the email from Guz in my Preliminary Approval thread

 

I will not understand just what it is she had her brother go do, and get it red stamped and all, until I get a scanned copy of her new white book. It does have to do with listing her parents and their birth dates. I have seen a scan of the paper she got, but now it is with the translator.

 

Basically it is supposed to be a certified, notarized, translation (white book) of a notarized birth certificate, if that makes sense. Nothing seems clear to me right now of just what GUZ wants. It would be a good question to ask them in Guz Speaks, if you ask me.

 

 

It is my gut feeling (and ONLY that) that the term "birth certificate" is often mis-interpreted as meaning the new format of birth certificate for those born AFTER 1991.

 

Yes, it apparently IS possible to get for those born BEFORE 1991, IF the parental certification (DNA) testing is performed - the testing is REQUIRED for the new style of "birth certificate". There is no reason why you should want to NOT get this done in your case, unless it creates additional headaches.

 

But my gut feeling ALSO tells me that this testing is UNCALLED for, especially by the consulate, since births before 1991 WERE registered in accordance with Chinese law in effect at that time.

[NUWORLD]

Well now we have had 2 other white books of documents we had for my wife's birth. It isn't good enough. The consulate has now requested yet another. My wife says she understands, from what the Chinese girl who went through all the documents just before the interview told her. Since the white guy interviewer did not list another birth cert for her on the paperwork they gave us, we just ignored her words. I have listed the email from Guz in my Preliminary Approval thread

 

I will not understand just what it is she had her brother go do, and get it red stamped and all, until I get a scanned copy of her new white book. It does have to do with listing her parents and their birth dates. I have seen a scan of the paper she got, but now it is with the translator.

 

Basically it is supposed to be a certified, notarized, translation (white book) of a notarized birth certificate, if that makes sense. Nothing seems clear to me right now of just what GUZ wants. It would be a good question to ask them in Guz Speaks, if you ask me.

 

 

Doug:

This is the format for the (White book) I have been down this road twice now and never had a problem with GZ.

We just received two visa's this week as you know.

 

You need this book or have you already submitted this? (Twice in this format?)

 

Though these are back in 2006:

 

This week was for sister in law and nephew. (Still same format)

Still i submitted the same format 7 months ago with no problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2015 by NUWORLD (see edit history)

[dnoblett]

A side note.

 

The foreign birth certificate is not needed at the time of filing an I-130, it will be needed later at the visa interview in Guangzhou.

[Doug]

NUWORLD, yes we had those kind of white books. So HECK if I know what the dang consulate wants. That's why I wonder if we should not ask them in GUZ Speaks, or do they answer anymore?

Here is my post from: http://candleforlove.com/forums/topic/47406-preliminarily-approved-ccp-citic-cgi-stanley-uid-number-birth-cert/

 

3 days in a row there has been an update to our cases. Now 2-26-2015.

Also got this email today. I'm already tingling and my heart and toes feel better, but before I let myself get too excited, is this it? If the 3rd version of sending in her birth certificate is OK this time, then the visa will be issued, or is this just a paper check and the dang thing was never sent to D.C. for the CCP waiver/overcome thing? (That would be another 4-6 months.)

Click on to enlarge:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2usy7wn.jpg

 

Edited by Doug, 26 February 2015 - 12:40 PM.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Doug (see edit history)

[Randy W]

 

NUWORLD, yes we had those kind of white books. So HECK if I know what the dang consulate wants. That's why I wonder if we should not ask them in GUZ Speaks, or do they answer anymore?

Here is my post from: http://candleforlove.com/forums/topic/47406-preliminarily-approved-ccp-citic-cgi-stanley-uid-number-birth-cert/

 

3 days in a row there has been an update to our cases. Now 2-26-2015.

Also got this email today. I'm already tingling and my heart and toes feel better, but before I let myself get too excited, is this it? If the 3rd version of sending in her birth certificate is OK this time, then the visa will be issued, or is this just a paper check and the dang thing was never sent to D.C. for the CCP waiver/overcome thing? (That would be another 4-6 months.)

Click on to enlarge:

 

 

Edited by Doug, 26 February 2015 - 12:40 PM.

 

 

 

There doesn't seem to be a way to ask these things any more. If you can get a handle on it, Doug, that would help out a LOT of people. I see on V.J. where they are ENCOURAGING people to go ahead and get the new-fangled, DNA-certified BIRTH CERTIFICATE. Seems like they'd be better off just sending people to Las Vegas to get an autographed copy from the King himself.

 

 

Edit: Oh, GUZ Speaks - you mean our forum we set up for USCONGUZ, a consular officer who used to come around to speak to us once in a while. He hasn't been seen hide nor hair of in a LONG time, maybe 5 years.

 

I had a vice consul right there in front of me the other day to notarize my Oath of Executor for my sister's estate. I wonder if I could have sprung the question on him, but he was there for ACS, not anything visa-related.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Doug]

I best stop posting until I understand what she has. I think it is a red stamped paper from her Hukou, that her brother got. Now it is being translated into a white book, but the translator says she will keep the original paper. hmmmm. (We had previously translated the papers she had for use in China showing her birth. I guess not good enough. They had a photo and a red stamp.)

 

If the USA wants this DNA testing then what are the procedures and who do they trust not to fake it? From something out of your links in post #2 the following looks like they don't trust anything, and therefore nobody knows what to do, hahaha. No real exact procedures it seems to me.

 

Birth

Available in the form of notarial certificates, which are secondary evidence. Notarial certificates of birth (Chu Sheng Gong Zheng Shu or Chu Sheng Zheng Ming Shu) for persons living in or recently departed from China are generally reliable, but are best used in conjunction with other evidence. They are most often based upon an AHHR, (Household Record) which is easily susceptible to fraud, especially in villages. Notarial birth certificates for persons long departed from China are most likely based merely upon the testimony of interested parties.

While some notarial birth certificates will list stepparents or adoptive parents along with natural parents, this is not always the case. In some cases, the certificates will list only the natural parents, covering up an adoption.

Some applicants will present notarial certificates of relationship (Guan Xi Gong Zheng [or Zheng Ming] Shu) in lieu of notarial birth certificates. These certificates of relationship are unreliable and tend to be based solely upon the testimony of interested parties. Notarial birth certificates should be required. Care should be taken with any certificate that lists step relationships. These relationships are as of the date of issuance of the certificate only. Marriage certificates should also be required.

[Randy W]

 

I best stop posting until I understand what she has. I think it is a red stamped paper from her Hukou, that her brother got. Now it is being translated into a white book, but the translator says she will keep the original paper. hmmmm. (We had previously translated the papers she had for use in China showing her birth. I guess not good enough. They had a photo and a red stamp.)

 

If the USA wants this DNA testing then what are the procedures and who do they trust not to fake it? From something out of your links in post #2 the following looks like they don't trust anything, and therefore nobody knows what to do, hahaha. No real exact procedures it seems to me.

 

Birth

Available in the form of notarial certificates, which are secondary evidence. Notarial certificates of birth (Chu Sheng Gong Zheng Shu or Chu Sheng Zheng Ming Shu) for persons living in or recently departed from China are generally reliable, but are best used in conjunction with other evidence. They are most often based upon an AHHR, (Household Record) which is easily susceptible to fraud, especially in villages. Notarial birth certificates for persons long departed from China are most likely based merely upon the testimony of interested parties.

While some notarial birth certificates will list stepparents or adoptive parents along with natural parents, this is not always the case. In some cases, the certificates will list only the natural parents, covering up an adoption.

Some applicants will present notarial certificates of relationship (Guan Xi Gong Zheng [or Zheng Ming] Shu) in lieu of notarial birth certificates. These certificates of relationship are unreliable and tend to be based solely upon the testimony of interested parties. Notarial birth certificates should be required. Care should be taken with any certificate that lists step relationships. These relationships are as of the date of issuance of the certificate only. Marriage certificates should also be required.

 

 

 

No, this talks about what they typically SEE from the Chinese authorities in the white books.

 

My assertion here is that the Consulate CAN NOT and DOES NOT make ANY demands on what the "birth certificate" looks like - that THEIR job is to recognize and ACCEPT what is STANDARD ISSUE from the Chinese authorities.

 

I think the CONFUSION stems from the term "birth certificate" being MISINTERPRETED (by people like your Chinese girl at the document intake and by any number of Western visa petitioners who don't know any better) as indicating the NEW format. The NEW format falls under CHINESE law as requiring parental verification. Your wife DOES NOT fall under this law unless she just absolutely NEEDS one of these new birth certificates - I don't think the consulate can demand it.

 

I hate to tell you to just submit another white book (as per NuWorld's post), but I really think that's what they're looking for. Then again, you're smack in the middle of all this.

 

Can you post a question to the Consulate's email web page?

[NUWORLD]

 

 

I best stop posting until I understand what she has. I think it is a red stamped paper from her Hukou, that her brother got. Now it is being translated into a white book, but the translator says she will keep the original paper. hmmmm. (We had previously translated the papers she had for use in China showing her birth. I guess not good enough. They had a photo and a red stamp.)

 

If the USA wants this DNA testing then what are the procedures and who do they trust not to fake it? From something out of your links in post #2 the following looks like they don't trust anything, and therefore nobody knows what to do, hahaha. No real exact procedures it seems to me.

 

Birth

Available in the form of notarial certificates, which are secondary evidence. Notarial certificates of birth (Chu Sheng Gong Zheng Shu or Chu Sheng Zheng Ming Shu) for persons living in or recently departed from China are generally reliable, but are best used in conjunction with other evidence. They are most often based upon an AHHR, (Household Record) which is easily susceptible to fraud, especially in villages. Notarial birth certificates for persons long departed from China are most likely based merely upon the testimony of interested parties.

While some notarial birth certificates will list stepparents or adoptive parents along with natural parents, this is not always the case. In some cases, the certificates will list only the natural parents, covering up an adoption.

Some applicants will present notarial certificates of relationship (Guan Xi Gong Zheng [or Zheng Ming] Shu) in lieu of notarial birth certificates. These certificates of relationship are unreliable and tend to be based solely upon the testimony of interested parties. Notarial birth certificates should be required. Care should be taken with any certificate that lists step relationships. These relationships are as of the date of issuance of the certificate only. Marriage certificates should also be required.

 

 

 

No, this talks about what they typically SEE from the Chinese authorities in the white books.

 

My assertion here is that the Consulate CAN NOT and DOES NOT make ANY demands on what the "birth certificate" looks like - that THEIR job is to recognize and ACCEPT what is STANDARD ISSUE from the Chinese authorities.

 

I think the CONFUSION stems from the term "birth certificate" being MISINTERPRETED (by people like your Chinese girl at the document intake and by any number of Western visa petitioners who don't know any better) as indicating the NEW format. The NEW format falls under CHINESE law as requiring parental verification. Your wife DOES NOT fall under this law unless she just absolutely NEEDS one of these new birth certificates - I don't think the consulate can demand it.

 

I hate to tell you to just submit another white book (as per NuWorld's post), but I really think that's what they're looking for. Then again, you're smack in the middle of all this.

 

Can you post a question to the Consulate's email web page?

 

 

I was thinking the same.

I too visit VJ daily and there are many post on this subject.

 

It seams to me that someone at GZ has there eyes closed and NOT doing there job.

I can't think of any other way around this other than send them the format i stated above.

Also include the form/paper you quoted in my post above and i would also include a letter stating what Randy said.

 

Also as much as i hate to say this: Maybe time to call Marc Ellis for some input?

 

IMO: There has been no postings on DOJ,NVC,USCIS,GZ or any other government web site that i have found about this new format. ( I think someone at GZ is pulling your chain?)

Even on VJ as Randy stated some are doing this NEW FORMAT??

 

The thing with VJ is that you have members from all over the world going to different consulates and each consulate has there own rules.

Even in the Chinese forum on VJ there are post like this.

 

For the almost 10 years i have been going down the road, the WHITE BOOK has always been the rule and law!

 

Also, Please do not take this the wrong way, But i would drill your SO about exactly! what was asked and said during her interview.

Some where there was a red flag raised.

 

Take care buddy and the best of luck to ya.

Keep us updated.

 

Mike

Edited March 5, 2015 by NUWORLD (see edit history)

[Doug]

The interviewing officer said not one word about the birth certificate. He did not request another white book for it either. It was the girl arranging the documents that verbally said something to my wife. But, since the officer did not request it in writing, we blew it off, thinking the little girl (woman) was overridden.

 

We have white books out the GUZoo.

 

I quizzed my wife again about this last night. We can't seem to communicate about the differences in what this new white book will be and the old one. I told her of the trouble everyone is having now, and that her input will help many. This evening she will get the white book. I hope she can scan it for me to read and compare.

 

Randy & NUWORLD, I think what Y'all are saying about a letter is a good idea to go along with this submission. I will barrow some of your words and send to her to include in the CTIC Bank package.

 

PS: I should add that my last 2 inquiries to GUZ have been ignored.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Doug (see edit history)

[Doug]

OK, I think I promised to post the new birth cert she got. It is more simple than the first one we had a white book for. Here is the page from the white book of the latest birth certificate. I don't know what they were bugging us for, but it worked this time, as the visa was immediately issued when they got it.

http://i61.tinypic.com/15xmg7p.jpg

[Randy W]

OK, I think I promised to post the new birth cert she got. It is more simple than the first one we had a white book for. Here is the page from the white book of the latest birth certificate. I don't know what they were bugging us for, but it worked this time, as the visa was immediately issued when they got it.

http://i61.tinypic.com/15xmg7p.jpg

 

 

Doug, that looks identical to page 3 of my wife's own white book birth certificate, which she got in 2005, except that Jiaying's did not have ANY ID numbers on it.

 

Was any DNA testing or other proof required?

 

I'm going to guess that you were fine all along with the birth certificate, since it WAS only the Chinese girl who actually said anything, UNLESS what you had given them originally was NOT the standard white book format. Can you post a copy of what you had originally submitted so that we can see the difference?

 

Sorry to ask, but it seems this is worthwhile to try to cut through the speculation.