Is US Citizenship worth it?

[HaoRan]

My wife's family has property in China which is in my wife's name and my wife's family is paying in on her national health insurance which I think in another 10 years she'll be "vested".

 

If she becomes a US citizen will that cause complications with either her family's property and/or her health insurance? She has a 10 year green card which she's into now for 3 years.

 

Thank you,

 

Haoran.

[dnoblett]

• Citizens have full rights and protections under the United States Constitution. Non-citizens, even lawful permanent residents with long term residence in the United States, may face the loss of their status under certain circumstances as a result of changes in immigration law.
• U.S. citizens are able to sponsor immediate relatives (spouses, unmarried minor children and parents) for Legal Permanent Resident (LPR) status without a long wait for a visa to become available. The may also sponsor these other relatives, subject to visa availability:
  • unmarried adult sons and daughters;
  • married sons and daughters; and,
  • brothers and sisters.
• Possession of a United States passport.
• Ability to travel, and even live, abroad without fear of jeopardizing LPR status.
• Citizens may not be removed, or deported, from the United States. They are also able to re-enter the United States easily without being required to establish admissibility each time.
• Ability to vote and fully participate in the U.S. electoral process.
• Only U.S. citizens are able to hold elected public office.
• Eligibility for many government-related jobs is restricted to citizens only.
• Eligibility for public benefits from which non-citizens, including LPRs, may be excluded.
• Receipt of Social Security benefits worldwide without concern over reciprocity agreements.
• Entitlement to substantial deductions on U.S. estate tax.
• No address change or other CIS reporting requirements.
• Citizens are always eligible for Social Security and Medicare benefits, which many non-citizens may not be.

I believe should still be able to retain ownership of property in China even after becoming a citizen, since they acquired it before becoming a US Citizen.

[HaoRan]

dnoblett,

 

Do you know anything about retirement (Chinese)? My wife has the understanding if she becomes US citizen before "vested" in China for retirement at age 50, she will lose all retirement benefits. If after "vested" she becomes a US citizen then she will/can receive retirement benefits.

 

Retirement and Property ownership are the two biggest obstacles so far.

 

Tks,

 

Haoran

[credzba]

dnoblett,

 

Do you know anything about retirement (Chinese)? My wife has the understanding if she becomes US citizen before "vested" in China for retirement at age 50, she will lose all retirement benefits. If after "vested" she becomes a US citizen then she will/can receive retirement benefits.

 

Retirement and Property ownership are the two biggest obstacles so far.

 

Tks,

 

Haoran

My wife says the same thing.

She says it is possible to take a lump sum payment at 50, but that it is very small, and not worth it.

 

Our big question is if AFTER she begins to draw Chinese retirement, will they stop paying her if she then becomes a US citizen?

[HaoRan]

From what I understand, No, they won't stop paying after she becomes a US citizen.. .. otherwise it's not worth it.

[HaoRan]

She said she will receive the income/benefits on a card which she can use any time.

[dnoblett]

A person to ask is Griz326 his wife returned to China a year or so ago for 6 or 8 months to work long enough for her retirement.

 

http://candleforlove.com/forums/topic/38186-chinese-pensions/

http://candleforlove.com/forums/topic/37351-wife-wants-to-return-to-china-for-a-year/

[tsap seui]

I think you guys hit on the real questions and this is what we need to find out as well as you guys, for ourselves....the retirement angle with US citizenship, and possible problems with home or property ownership in China by a "foreigner". I don't know anyone who is currently in this situation. 2Mikes is the most savvy guy for these answers that I know of. I do believe he is having his wife, who like many of our wives owns property in China (as well she is or has been a very successful business woman).

 

I'm, all for my wife gaining US citizenship for the reasons Dan lists, but not at any loss of her retirement benefits (pretty low in my estimation but very important to our wives) and especially to me, any potential problems with my wife's home ownership in China (she has 3 in her name) should I pass on and she decides to head back to China. Actually, I know full well that should I pass on within at least the next 10 years, my wife will head back to China on the first plane taking off when our son graduated from university..no doubt about that.If I live long enough for the SSA time rule and the VA time rule she can collect them both in China. With that said, if we were younger (I'm 63 and she is turning 50 in a few days) we would both look at US citizenship differently.

 

I hope 2Mikes will chime in, he is THE MAN in my opinion and he will have or get any answers any of us looking at this challenge could need. My wife is going to pay in some more on her retirement plan in the next few weeks, I will ask her to ask the retirement officials about any potential problems if she became a US citizen...and I'll ask her to research any potential problems with her China home ownership as a US citizen. I don't want her to encounter a single problem with buying and selling her investments should she become a US citizen, and I pass away in the near future. Luckily, she has gotten over her Chineseness and we can talk openly about my death. In the same vein, she now is vested pretty well in America with her 14 rental units and property in America. I don't see any problems with her living in China and a real estate property management company overseeing her property here and sending her the money or direct depositing her money in a US bank that she can access in China...but I am wide open to any suggestions.

 

tsap seui

Edited July 22, 2013 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[dnoblett]

From what I understand the property ownership angle is not an issue, a Chinese citizen does not loose ownership of property owned prior to becoming a US Citizen.

[2mike&jin]

Since "Chop Suey" asked....

 

1. It was a struggle to balance all the competing demands in terms of US Citizenship. For us it was a not a real issue, as per the list, ESTATE TAXes was the overwhelming issue at the time, for some it will continue to be the driving force. I.e., FYI- if US Citizen, ALL Property/Funds PASS FREE OF ESTATE OR Gift Taxes to our spouses. If not, you can either (1) Set up a special trust with a financial institution (costly, less flexible, burdensome), or (2) Hand the US Gov't 45% of what you have. Recently, this "limit" has "CHANGED" from Unlimited, to $1M, back to $5.25M indexed for inflation - which is the current law - as defined in the last minute budget/Tax negotiations in Washington in 2012.. Other taxes at state and local levels may be added as well, depending on state. Don't forget this is "total estate", so do your best to avoid probate as well as estate and gift limits. FYI - my wife became a USC and voted last year, which was the very earliest she was eligible.

 

2. Yes, my wife had both a home and considerable "savings" in bank accounts in China. The former is a none issue, as once you own something they don't "Take it away from you", in fact when I lived there we almost bought several places - and each of us could've bought them individually - even me with my school visa. (Tourist Visa could not when I was there - and I couldn't get a loan, not that I would've ever done that). So, from a "house standpoint", nothing has changed she owns her house, and she most likely always will. I could've bought and I could've continued to own a house. Unfortunately, if she now tells them she is "MARRIED" she must obtain my signature to sell the house or do anything with it - strange little rule I never understood but sort of, I guess, like our "401/IRA" accounts here in the US. As of yet, no ongoing property taxes in our Province/Town, Xiamen. When the place is sold - if nothing changes - the 3% sales tax to the Gov't and the selling expenses are all borne by the "Buyer". She signs at the Notary and it's finished. No LTCG if she has held the property for 5 years, which for us is over.

 

3. I have no information about "retirement benefits" as my wife was a restaurant(s) owner and didn't have a Gov't retirement. Although it has been well vetted here on the site, I find it most troublesome with the passport/visa/visit traveling paperwork - regarding the change to USC status. We all remember the "get an invitation letter" to visit - well now that she is a USC does that mean she has to get a letter to visit her own house? When we go to visit our house - can she no longer go to the police station and register the USC husband and Children because she also is a USC? These little things get complicated - moreover if she shows up at the Police Station to register us, and her children and Husband are USC's with US passports and she hands them here Huko ID, what will they surmise - that she is a USC, because they could just as well ask for the passport, of course which will have the corners cut off of it when she applies for her first Chinese visa. Yes, many schemes have been concocted to enter through HK and pass to Shenzhen but I can't do the math on leaving the country - because one needs a HK travel document update - and again it becomes problematic.

 

Honesty, is probably the best method for reporting of visa's, passports, and travel documents.

 

4. Banking/Large Investments: I find this an easy issue to deal with. Opening a bank account with an ID CARD can be done at anytime and does not depend on citizenship - if you don't wear a US Flag lapel pin. If you have an account, even if you are a foreigner, you can keep it. My wife uses her ID card for all bank transactions - and moreover - leaves the card in China for her "Cousin" to make trips to various places, including the bank to wire home the $50K chunks periodically, with no apparent issues.

 

5. After living in China, owning property in China, and dealing with the Chinese wife issues for the last 5 Years, the Country ID system being different from the Passport/Travel Document issue helps all of us - I think! I initially was frustrated because the system was "different" but the decoupling helps, as outlined above.

 

6. I believe there is "little" downside to conversion to a USC, BUT, I think it will be extra steps for my wife if she ever wants to go back to China and live. She has no plans to do that. Our SECOND BOY (Shan William) will ARRIVE Friday afternoon at 3:30 PM HST (C-Section scheduled) and she has chosen to live and enjoy our life in America. (Not that Hawaii is much different from China - one party system, lot's of Asians, lot's of Traffic, Expensive etc etc)

 

Take Care.....

 

7. Best of Luck to all of you on the Journey.

[credzba]

Since "Chop Suey" asked....

 

1. It was a struggle to balance all the competing demands in terms of US Citizenship. For us it was a not a real issue, as per the list, ESTATE TAXes was the overwhelming issue at the time, for some it will continue to be the driving force. I.e., FYI- if US Citizen, ALL Property/Funds PASS FREE OF ESTATE OR Gift Taxes to our spouses. If not, you can either (1) Set up a special trust with a financial institution (costly, less flexible, burdensome), or (2) Hand the US Gov't 45% of what you have. Recently, this "limit" has "CHANGED" from Unlimited, to $1M, back to $5.25M indexed for inflation - which is the current law - as defined in the last minute budget/Tax negotiations in Washington in 2012.. Other taxes at state and local levels may be added as well, depending on state. Don't forget this is "total estate", so do your best to avoid probate as well as estate and gift limits. FYI - my wife became a USC and voted last year, which was the very earliest she was eligible.

 

2. Yes, my wife had both a home and considerable "savings" in bank accounts in China. The former is a none issue, as once you own something they don't "Take it away from you", in fact when I lived there we almost bought several places - and each of us could've bought them individually - even me with my school visa. (Tourist Visa could not when I was there - and I couldn't get a loan, not that I would've ever done that). So, from a "house standpoint", nothing has changed she owns her house, and she most likely always will. I could've bought and I could've continued to own a house. Unfortunately, if she now tells them she is "MARRIED" she must obtain my signature to sell the house or do anything with it - strange little rule I never understood but sort of, I guess, like our "401/IRA" accounts here in the US. As of yet, no ongoing property taxes in our Province/Town, Xiamen. When the place is sold - if nothing changes - the 3% sales tax to the Gov't and the selling expenses are all borne by the "Buyer". She signs at the Notary and it's finished. No LTCG if she has held the property for 5 years, which for us is over.

 

3. I have no information about "retirement benefits" as my wife was a restaurant(s) owner and didn't have a Gov't retirement. Although it has been well vetted here on the site, I find it most troublesome with the passport/visa/visit traveling paperwork - regarding the change to USC status. We all remember the "get an invitation letter" to visit - well now that she is a USC does that mean she has to get a letter to visit her own house? When we go to visit our house - can she no longer go to the police station and register the USC husband and Children because she also is a USC? These little things get complicated - moreover if she shows up at the Police Station to register us, and her children and Husband are USC's with US passports and she hands them here Huko ID, what will they surmise - that she is a USC, because they could just as well ask for the passport, of course which will have the corners cut off of it when she applies for her first Chinese visa. Yes, many schemes have been concocted to enter through HK and pass to Shenzhen but I can't do the math on leaving the country - because one needs a HK travel document update - and again it becomes problematic.

 

Honesty, is probably the best method for reporting of visa's, passports, and travel documents.

 

4. Banking/Large Investments: I find this an easy issue to deal with. Opening a bank account with an ID CARD can be done at anytime and does not depend on citizenship - if you don't wear a US Flag lapel pin. If you have an account, even if you are a foreigner, you can keep it. My wife uses her ID card for all bank transactions - and moreover - leaves the card in China for her "Cousin" to make trips to various places, including the bank to wire home the $50K chunks periodically, with no apparent issues.

 

5. After living in China, owning property in China, and dealing with the Chinese wife issues for the last 5 Years, the Country ID system being different from the Passport/Travel Document issue helps all of us - I think! I initially was frustrated because the system was "different" but the decoupling helps, as outlined above.

 

6. I believe there is "little" downside to conversion to a USC, BUT, I think it will be extra steps for my wife if she ever wants to go back to China and live. She has no plans to do that. Our SECOND BOY (Shan William) will ARRIVE Friday afternoon at 3:30 PM HST (C-Section scheduled) and she has chosen to live and enjoy our life in America. (Not that Hawaii is much different from China - one party system, lot's of Asians, lot's of Traffic, Expensive etc etc)

 

Take Care.....

 

7. Best of Luck to all of you on the Journey.

on 1. the Estate tax. Reading online it says up to the limit (2007 was 2 million) even a non-citizen spouse is not estate taxed.

Is that your understanding ?

[Randy W]

Once she is a U.S. citizen, she no longer has a usable hukou - it won't do any good to take it to the PSB Entry and Exit folks.

 

Always ask your own local bureau, but you'll be applying as foreign citizens who own property and are visiting relatives. I expect you'll be able to get the standard issue one-year visa with unlimited stay (i.e.., no border hop required), although the longer term visas may be possible now (a new visa law takes effect in September). I don't think you're eligible for the permanent residency card (what I call a 5 year brownie pin), however.

[2mike&jin]

 

Since "Chop Suey" asked....

 

1. It was a struggle to balance all the competing demands in terms of US Citizenship. For us it was a not a real issue, as per the list, ESTATE TAXes was the overwhelming issue at the time, for some it will continue to be the driving force. I.e., FYI- if US Citizen, ALL Property/Funds PASS FREE OF ESTATE OR Gift Taxes to our spouses. If not, you can either (1) Set up a special trust with a financial institution (costly, less flexible, burdensome), or (2) Hand the US Gov't 45% of what you have. Recently, this "limit" has "CHANGED" from Unlimited, to $1M, back to $5.25M indexed for inflation - which is the current law - as defined in the last minute budget/Tax negotiations in Washington in 2012.. Other taxes at state and local levels may be added as well, depending on state. Don't forget this is "total estate", so do your best to avoid probate as well as estate and gift limits. FYI - my wife became a USC and voted last year, which was the very earliest she was eligible.

 

2. Yes, my wife had both a home and considerable "savings" in bank accounts in China. The former is a none issue, as once you own something they don't "Take it away from you", in fact when I lived there we almost bought several places - and each of us could've bought them individually - even me with my school visa. (Tourist Visa could not when I was there - and I couldn't get a loan, not that I would've ever done that). So, from a "house standpoint", nothing has changed she owns her house, and she most likely always will. I could've bought and I could've continued to own a house. Unfortunately, if she now tells them she is "MARRIED" she must obtain my signature to sell the house or do anything with it - strange little rule I never understood but sort of, I guess, like our "401/IRA" accounts here in the US. As of yet, no ongoing property taxes in our Province/Town, Xiamen. When the place is sold - if nothing changes - the 3% sales tax to the Gov't and the selling expenses are all borne by the "Buyer". She signs at the Notary and it's finished. No LTCG if she has held the property for 5 years, which for us is over.

 

3. I have no information about "retirement benefits" as my wife was a restaurant(s) owner and didn't have a Gov't retirement. Although it has been well vetted here on the site, I find it most troublesome with the passport/visa/visit traveling paperwork - regarding the change to USC status. We all remember the "get an invitation letter" to visit - well now that she is a USC does that mean she has to get a letter to visit her own house? When we go to visit our house - can she no longer go to the police station and register the USC husband and Children because she also is a USC? These little things get complicated - moreover if she shows up at the Police Station to register us, and her children and Husband are USC's with US passports and she hands them here Huko ID, what will they surmise - that she is a USC, because they could just as well ask for the passport, of course which will have the corners cut off of it when she applies for her first Chinese visa. Yes, many schemes have been concocted to enter through HK and pass to Shenzhen but I can't do the math on leaving the country - because one needs a HK travel document update - and again it becomes problematic.

 

Honesty, is probably the best method for reporting of visa's, passports, and travel documents.

 

4. Banking/Large Investments: I find this an easy issue to deal with. Opening a bank account with an ID CARD can be done at anytime and does not depend on citizenship - if you don't wear a US Flag lapel pin. If you have an account, even if you are a foreigner, you can keep it. My wife uses her ID card for all bank transactions - and moreover - leaves the card in China for her "Cousin" to make trips to various places, including the bank to wire home the $50K chunks periodically, with no apparent issues.

 

5. After living in China, owning property in China, and dealing with the Chinese wife issues for the last 5 Years, the Country ID system being different from the Passport/Travel Document issue helps all of us - I think! I initially was frustrated because the system was "different" but the decoupling helps, as outlined above.

 

6. I believe there is "little" downside to conversion to a USC, BUT, I think it will be extra steps for my wife if she ever wants to go back to China and live. She has no plans to do that. Our SECOND BOY (Shan William) will ARRIVE Friday afternoon at 3:30 PM HST (C-Section scheduled) and she has chosen to live and enjoy our life in America. (Not that Hawaii is much different from China - one party system, lot's of Asians, lot's of Traffic, Expensive etc etc)

 

Take Care.....

 

7. Best of Luck to all of you on the Journey.

on 1. the Estate tax. Reading online it says up to the limit (2007 was 2 million) even a non-citizen spouse is not estate taxed.

Is that your understanding ?

 

 

 

 

Since "Chop Suey" asked....

 

1. It was a struggle to balance all the competing demands in terms of US Citizenship. For us it was a not a real issue, as per the list, ESTATE TAXes was the overwhelming issue at the time, for some it will continue to be the driving force. I.e., FYI- if US Citizen, ALL Property/Funds PASS FREE OF ESTATE OR Gift Taxes to our spouses. If not, you can either (1) Set up a special trust with a financial institution (costly, less flexible, burdensome), or (2) Hand the US Gov't 45% of what you have. Recently, this "limit" has "CHANGED" from Unlimited, to $1M, back to $5.25M indexed for inflation - which is the current law - as defined in the last minute budget/Tax negotiations in Washington in 2012.. Other taxes at state and local levels may be added as well, depending on state. Don't forget this is "total estate", so do your best to avoid probate as well as estate and gift limits. FYI - my wife became a USC and voted last year, which was the very earliest she was eligible.

 

on 1. the Estate tax. Reading online it says up to the limit (2007 was 2 million) even a non-citizen spouse is not estate taxed.

Is that your understanding ?

 

 

Yes YOU ARE correct - only the amount over the limit. (Be careful for a variety of reasons computing this) THe current limit was set at $5,120,00 in 2012 and indexed up to approximately $5.25M for 2013. THere is NO available Gift Tax - but there is a provision that allows we USC's to give our Non-USC wives up to $135,000 a year as a gift - tax free. (It was indexed for inflation as well) For the 3 years, that actually spanned 4, - while we waited I was able to "Gift" to my non- USC wife over $500K with no taxation at all, and then she rolled it into something north of $875K - with no cost basis. Again, people start to think that the Estate Tax limit is very high - but congress has changed this about 15 times in the last 20 years - and it has been all over the place. As you noted $2M, in 2007 - well in Hawaii a high level state employee - with retirement benefits (cash value or flow) and home could exceed the $2007 limit quickly. I'm sure LA and New York and other places have the same situation. My real problem is the "changes" that congress tends to make - i.e. we promise you military guys - free medical for life for going to war and retiring with us - OH, not so quick - we now want you to pay into medicare - oH, you worked hard saved your money we will now "means test" your payment for your "Free Medical Care" now that promise costs about $4K a year - so much for Congressional Promises. I'm wondering how the firemen in Detroit are feeling right now?

 

Most of the folks that I know that are in a position to be affected by this do one of two things. Do their Death planning - set up a Trust/Pour Over Will, and have the QDT all set up, in the event " spouse is NOT a USC. Any qualified USC could fill the bill (Daughter or Son who is an accountant/Lawyer etc) or as I said some financial institution. OF course the second thing is to just become a USC --- which is what we did. I'm not sure what is best but I tend not to trust "individuals" and completely don't trust financial institutions. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

rw - let me know if I screwed it up

Edited July 24, 2013 by Randy W
hopefully fixed quote nesting (see edit history)

[tsap seui]

As usual, great stuff Mike.

 

I'm sorry to see military retired are gonna have to pay into medicare for their "free" medical care that was promised them. Not having retired, but being 100% P&T service connected for my free medical and dental (along with my wife and son until he ages out, save the dental for them) I try to stay on top of congressional changes for our group too. I'm sure they are coming down the pike, even as quickly as Vietnam era vets are dropping like flies in a pesticide fog, those VA and congressional bureaucratic buggers are looking at every out or new rule they can find or dream up to cut us out wherever they can.

 

At a much more modest 2mil from my years of sucking crud out of DC doctors and lawyers carpets I am well below the new and ever changing rules, so lil' rabbit should be safe in that regard. Only time will tell if my wife will become a US citizen or not. No children for us other than the son whose starting 12th grade and no more on the way, so at my death I fully expect Wenyan to head back to China, maybe returning periodically to the states, who knows. I've set her up with 14 apartments now that will be run by a real estate property manager and she will still be able to receive my SS bene and VA (DIC) benefits. For years I have sent the max I legally could to China, but it will still take 40 years to clean out the account. The lil' dear is just gonna have to keep some ties to America....lol It is a blessing to have met her at this stage of the game and I want her to stay safe and happy when I go fly the big Huey in the sky.

 

After I finally got clean and sober in 1985 I was good at making money (which has come to an abrupt halt with my 100% P&T award) but it's very interesting and informative to read your postings on saving or keeping it.

 

Good tidings on Friday with the new boy, daddy.

 

tsap seui

[2mike&jin]

THanks -- new baby boy, now with two under 4 years old, and I'm only 66! What was I thinking when she said she wanted to be "married and have a family"?