US and China Frenemies?

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2009/08/05...enemy.cnnmoney/

[fineart]

There is an old saying: In business, there is only profit and no real friends.

[knloregon]

"....There is an old saying: In business, there is only profit and no real friends...."

 

Interesting point Fine Art, but perhaps more appropriate in the short term instead of the long term.

 

International business here in Oregon involves long term relationships with suppliers in China. No, Nike or Columbia Sportswear are not going to stand behind these Chinese suppliers ---"at all cost" But they aren't going to dump them on a whim either.

 

But between nations, the more they trade, (US/PRC) ---the closer they become. As we all know, from personal experience here, Fine Art, (that shared personal experience is one of the things that makes the Candle stand out on these kinds of subjects) ---- even when they are Culturally VERY DIFFERENT ~ !

 

As for the US and China, some of the culture rubs off on each party through extended trade. (part of the reason the Han in Japan often have those long (Dutch?) facial characteristics?

 

Candle members are the cutting edge in America, but the longer the run in co-dependence between China and the US----the more likely the permanent connection between our two very different cultures....

[fineart]

Hi, Kim, you are as inclusive as your sign means. Yes, the more people co-operate, the more possible they build friendship.

 

What you were talking about sounds to me like an industrial chain in which all the sectors of the chain have mutual benefit.

 

What I am talking about was competitor issue. For example, if producing same quality goods, China¡¯s labor are much cheaper than USA, so the cost is relatively lower . China can set the price much lower which make USA not competitive for the price issue.

 

Also about energy and mineral deposit, USA has always been hostile to China¡¯s exploitation and utilization of other countries¡¯ mineral resources.

 

Economics states, war will happen because of limited resources yet never-ending hominine desires.

[knloregon]

"Also about energy and mineral deposit, USA has always been hostile to China¡¯s exploitation and utilization of other countries¡¯ mineral resources...."

 

Well, great post, FA, but ONLY the US???

 

News item: RE: Rio Tinto----- (iron ore) July 5---AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL STERN HU (a Han Chinese...) Rio Tinto executive working in China... arrested---- on corruption and espionage charges....

 

"According to a Spokesman for the Chinese foreign ministry, Hu has also been accused of bribery by Chinese State Officials.. "

 

Background: Rio Tinto is a mostly British conglomerate with huge iron ore resources in Australia ----China continues to be the largest steel producer in the world----by far. China has been in protracted negotiations with the world's ore producers to substantially lower the price of iron ore----given the global economy--- Rio Tinto has resisted...

 

"....Hu has also been accused of bribery by Chinese State Officials.. "

 

I'M SHOCKED ~ ! SOMEONE ATTEMPTED TO BRIBE CHINESE STATE OFFICIALS?!?!?! Glad to see they were all honest and above board!

 

 

 

 

Economics states, war will happen because of limited resources yet never-ending hominine desires.

[fineart]

That is not unusual. Bribery and corruption happen all the time anywhere. Many "rich" people their money come from "grey income" which is illegal.

 

USA is not the only one that is hostile to China on the energy and mineral deposit issues.

[knloregon]

But FA, China is searching the globe for natural resources---and locking them up when they can----the Rio Tinto example isn't one of the outside world intimidating China, its the opposite----

[Tony_onrock]

May be going off course here. I am not talking about nations but business people and business culture. In the past 3 or 4 years we beat a lot of other funds to become one of the most active on the China real estate market because our team is all Chinese. Too often we grab a deal from our foreigner staffed competitor even though our offer was not the best. We always start to make friends first or at least during the course of negotiation try to build a friendship, like family outings etc. It is hard to explain. Americans go in with the most aggressive terms treating the other side like an enemy and expect the other side to beat back equally aggressively to get to the middle ground and shake hands on a deal. Maybe that is what went wrong with US and China trade relationship.

In every single deal I do, I go in and look at the facts and economics and lay it on the table what I believe is the most fair deal, slightly more favorable to us and tell them outright that this is only a suggestion that can be discussed and explain the reason why I believe it is fair for both sides. If we do have to make a bad offer, we tell the other side not to be offended and don't have to consider it. They can look and talk with others first and if after talking with others they still like us then we can discuss on how to make changes on other terms (non-price wise) to make both sides happy. This way because they feel we are honest, they trust us. When the price is not hugely different and when time and certainty to close the deal is important, they pick us and we get a bargin.

[fineart]

May be going off course here. I am not talking about nations but business people and business culture. In the past 3 or 4 years we beat a lot of other funds to become one of the most active on the China real estate market because our team is all Chinese. Too often we grab a deal from our foreigner staffed competitor even though our offer was not the best. We always start to make friends first or at least during the course of negotiation try to build a friendship, like family outings etc. It is hard to explain. Americans go in with the most aggressive terms treating the other side like an enemy and expect the other side to beat back equally aggressively to get to the middle ground and shake hands on a deal. Maybe that is what went wrong with US and China trade relationship.

In every single deal I do, I go in and look at the facts and economics and lay it on the table what I believe is the most fair deal, slightly more favorable to us and tell them outright that this is only a suggestion that can be discussed and explain the reason why I believe it is fair for both sides. If we do have to make a bad offer, we tell the other side not to be offended and don't have to consider it. They can look and talk with others first and if after talking with others they still like us then we can discuss on how to make changes on other terms (non-price wise) to make both sides happy. This way because they feel we are honest, they trust us. When the price is not hugely different and when time and certainty to close the deal is important, they pick us and we get a bargin.

Good perspective.

[fineart]

But FA, China is searching the globe for natural resources---and locking them up when they can----the Rio Tinto example isn't one of the outside world intimidating China, its the opposite----

Yes, Kim, what you said is true. And some other countries lock up a whole territory, such as the Gulf Area. Who lock more, who are richer, obviously.

[knloregon]

Tony on Rock ~

 

Nice to hear from you ~ ! And great advise.

 

So many of us---regardless of nationality have been burned on business deals where price was the only consideration that I do think that as people (and companies) mature---they are looking for an honest bottom line, even if it isn't the lowest price...

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

Tony on Rock ~

 

Nice to hear from you ~ ! And great advise.

 

So many of us---regardless of nationality have been burned on business deals where price was the only consideration that I do think that as people (and companies) mature---they are looking for an honest bottom line, even if it isn't the lowest price...

Companies who meet the customers price will soon be bankrupt. Walmart is the worlds leading retailer and the quality of their suppliers have slipped bady in order to meet the Walmart price. Walmart is a Pimp. They whore the market with cheap unreliable goods. One day Walmart will be the next GM.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Tony n Terrific (see edit history)

[Dennis143]

Tony on Rock ~

 

Nice to hear from you ~ ! And great advise.

 

So many of us---regardless of nationality have been burned on business deals where price was the only consideration that I do think that as people (and companies) mature---they are looking for an honest bottom line, even if it isn't the lowest price...

Companies who meet the customers price will soon be bankrupt. Walmart is the worlds leading retailer and the quality of their suppliers have slipped bady in order to meet the Walmart price. Walmart is a Pimp. They whore the market with cheap unreliable goods. One day Walmart will be the next GM.

Sorry, I have to disagree, Tony. Walmart is the model that world retailers are following.

 

All products on Walmart shelves are stocked on a strict consignment inventory. Walmart only pay their suppliers when goods are checked at the cash registar. If product doesn't move from their shelves, in a timed period, the stock will be replaced by another product.

 

Therefore, each Walmart store provide products that serve that particular community.

 

Walmart is not GM. Walmart does not produce a product, but simply provide product that the consumer may desire. It isn't Walmart's fault if the consumer buys an inferior product at a cheap price to only find that they got what they paid for.

 

Walmart is simply a warehouse that hold goods that producers can display and hope that consumers will buy.

 

Walmart's an easy target for persons to wag their finger at, yet we're all better off having the model of American enterprise that Walmart embodies.

 

Walmart's are the reason why America continues to lead the world in business innovation.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Earthfirst (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

 

 

As for the US and China, some of the culture rubs off on each party through extended trade. (part of the reason the Han in Japan often have those long (Dutch?) facial characteristics?

 

 

 

I know this is OT, Kim. But I am curious what you meant by "Han in Japan"... If you are referring to the Japanese people they are not Han, and their physical characteristics are not due to mixing with the Dutch. Physically modern Japanese remains have been found thousands of years old. They're a result of immigrants from Korea originally from Mongolia intermixing with what at the time were Japan's indigenous population of a polynesian-like people(short and dark skinned), and mostly the Ainu (who some people still debate about whether or not they are caucasian but definately have caucasian facial features and white translucent skin). Later in Japan's history some Han families did move into Japan, but not enough to significantly affect their racial makeup as a whole.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[knloregon]

Interesting background on ethnic makeup of Japanese, Jason.

 

My sources are antidotal (except the Dutch part---read in my past a western historical source that attributed this influence in Japan's racial makeup, the Dutch were in Japan long enough to have that kind of an influence)

 

But mostly, its from my Chinese family, (not supporters of the Japanese) who love to point out the waves of Chinese invading Japan over the centuries, settling huge Chinese communities, which traded routinely with China, introducing Confusian thought and Taoism, which informed Japanese design and life style even more than in China, and in fact----that kanji----the oldest surviving written language in Japan-----is Chinese----and Han....