A Manifesto on Freedom

[Randy W]

What I do not get is why post this article? There are groups in the USA comprised on only USA citizens who would like to radically change our system and that the government monitors.

 

Maybe we can post those stories also and wonder why more USA citizens do not support them. The life of an average Chinese person is not so different from that of an average USA person.

 

Now that's an interesting concept - don't discuss China because it's "not so different" from the US.

 

Perhaps there would be enough interest in discussing the US to set up a separate USA forum. Even without the forum you are free to post USA issues you feel warrant discussion.

[rogerluli]

 

I'm all for debate, even some argument. But I am however, always flabbergasted to read how some people (especially American spouses) push their opinions as fact on this issue, and laugh derisively at the "stupid westerners who can never understand the Chinese" as if they have become the very avatar of the distilled essence of "Chinese" simply by "opening their eyes" and reading a few books and spending a few weeks or years living in China. If ANYONE could so well pigeonhole an entire nation, there would be no war or revolution, would there? lol

 

Sorta like laughing at them, rather than with them?

 

If cultural awareness and education were a destination, you could get directions.....

 

Under the new rules of zero tolerance...Isn't this a personal attack???

[rogerluli]

Ya know, Jason, you've become a wise fellow lately. Wish some would (or could) understand what you just said.

 

Don, like a Boy Scout leading an older gentleman across the street, let me try to help you out... Jason's somewhat oblique reference was to the original thread on this topic, begun by that long time troublemaker, myself... B) In that thread, oh here it is BTW...

 

http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...c=34864&hl=

 

This whole issue was hashed out at length... B) at that time and just when the party was really getting going an interesting mod tag team technique was used to close it... So you see Jason was just trying to save us all the time and trouble of having to revisit everyone's earlier opinions on the topic which no doubt have not changed one iota since the earlier rendition...Have a nice day...

[rogerluli]

 

 

What's posted as fact rarely is. Experts aren't.

 

You mean we're all just flogging around in the dark???

 

Oh well...

[Jeikun]

Thanks for the assist, youngster, but I didn't want to cross the street.

 

I was keying in on this part of Jason's post:

 

"But I am however, always flabbergasted to read how some people (especially American spouses) push their opinions as fact on this issue, and laugh derisively at the "stupid westerners who can never understand the Chinese" as if they have become the very avatar of the distilled essence of "Chinese" simply by "opening their eyes" and reading a few books and spending a few weeks or years living in China."

 

What's posted as fact rarely is. Experts aren't.

 

 

Yeah, Don gets my drift, and his quote is my core point. It's a shame to see others missed it already. Friends don't let friends post drunk.

[whome?]

What I do not get is why post this article? There are groups in the USA comprised on only USA citizens who would like to radically change our system and that the government monitors.

 

Maybe we can post those stories also and wonder why more USA citizens do not support them. The life of an average Chinese person is not so different from that of an average USA person.

 

Now that's an interesting concept - don't discuss China because it's "not so different" from the US.

 

Perhaps there would be enough interest in discussing the US to set up a separate USA forum. Even without the forum you are free to post USA issues you feel warrant discussion.

 

My first point was we have already been there and done that.

 

I agree with Jason's post that some who have been in China think they know China or the people better than those who have not.

 

However I also see posts by people who have spent little to no time in China who are just as guilty as thinking that they know what Chinese people want and/or that their human rights and basic libertites are being somehow denied by the chinese government.

 

My second point was that when you look at the basic tenets we hold so dearly (freedom of press, right to hold government accountable, etc.) I do not see that the we in the USA have such a superior system over China's or other governments. Just look at the posts we had on freedom of press.

[IllinoisDave]

And the beat goes on...

[samsong]

And the beat goes on...

Sonny & Cher ?................'I Got You Babe' is OK too!

[knloregon]

Hopefully, we all see value in experience. 'Street smarts' come from...the street. There are posters here who live in China, work in China (as I have occasionally)...and a fairly universal thread of experiencing China, and having our eyes opened by it. I weigh all that experience against my own observations, China and otherwise.

 

And heres the thing: CFL consistently has at least a few posters on any topic more astute than the national liberal press----who, one would have thought, are getting paid to report what they see. Hardly.

 

Reading the local liberal rag---The Oregonian, I have finally figured it out. First, employ green, mostly white reporters, send to China, file stories----which are then worked over by editors---who love (and summer in) liberal Europe---but have never been closer to Asia than the beach at Seaside, and out comes the sunrise edition, featuring the 'truth' about China... specially tailored not to offend any of the O's oh, so sensitive (and diminishing) readership.

 

CFLers need to give each other more credit. Collectively, we are all 'Old China Hands' compared to this slop.

[Guest Pommey]

I think its intersting that one of the few native chinese that voiced a opinion on the developement of chinese democracy was completly ignored while the pissing match of USC's "who knows best" continued.

[samsong]

I think its intersting that one of the few native chinese that voiced a opinion on the developement of chinese democracy was completly ignored while the pissing match of USC's "who knows best" continued.

Very observant. You are so right. How callous of us.

I do remember the post you are talking about, I mean, I didn't remember thru the course of this thread but looking back at it I do remember the one thing written in the post which is- "Remember china had this before." That I remembered and that is a statement of truth, China did have it before. That one sentence in the post I do remember when first reading the post. Thanks for pointing this out, Pommey.

[IllinoisDave]

I think its intersting that one of the few native chinese that voiced a opinion on the developement of chinese democracy was completly ignored while the pissing match of USC's "who knows best" continued.

I guess when certain members voice opinions/observations it's a "discussion." But when others do it's a "pissing match"? Seems to come pretty close to a personal attack.

[whome?]

i think a democracy like France Swizland or the UK may be good for China for local politics.china needs to avoid adopting a fedral goverment that can create laws and taxs over the provinces, armies should be provicial too.

Big govt must be accountable to the provincal elected and lawyers not allowed to hold public office.lobbyists banned (imprisoned when found) once elected must not accept any other monies, free trips or gifts of any sort.

special police created to watch elected and enforce fair working of agencies.

what china needs to avoid in a move to democracy is to follow some countries to a system of hidden special power control and out of control fedral aganies.

 

Remember china had this before.

 

Jin ... I just have a question just for clarification. Doesn't China have a federal government type system now that creates laws for the provinces and has a centralized army?

 

Also from your experience is the statement "the number of people in China who know about this movement are a drop in the bucket" true?

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

i think a democracy like France Swizland or the UK may be good for China for local politics.china needs to avoid adopting a fedral goverment that can create laws and taxs over the provinces, armies should be provicial too.

Big govt must be accountable to the provincal elected and lawyers not allowed to hold public office.lobbyists banned (imprisoned when found) once elected must not accept any other monies, free trips or gifts of any sort.

special police created to watch elected and enforce fair working of agencies.

what china needs to avoid in a move to democracy is to follow some countries to a system of hidden special power control and out of control fedral aganies.

 

Remember china had this before.

 

Jin ... I just have a question just for clarification. Doesn't China have a federal government type system now that creates laws for the provinces and has a centralized army?

 

Also from your experience is the statement "the number of people in China who know about this movement are a drop in the bucket" true?

 

Jin, when it comes to the concept of lobbying in the US, I could not agree with you more. The current system is wrought with corruption, kickbacks, and special perks.

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

i think a democracy like France Swizland or the UK may be good for China for local politics.china needs to avoid adopting a fedral goverment that can create laws and taxs over the provinces, armies should be provicial too.

Big govt must be accountable to the provincal elected and lawyers not allowed to hold public office.lobbyists banned (imprisoned when found) once elected must not accept any other monies, free trips or gifts of any sort.

special police created to watch elected and enforce fair working of agencies.

what china needs to avoid in a move to democracy is to follow some countries to a system of hidden special power control and out of control fedral aganies.

 

Remember china had this before.

Jin ... I just have a question just for clarification. Doesn't China have a federal government type system now that creates laws for the provinces and has a centralized army?

 

Also from your experience is the statement "the number of people in China who know about this movement are a drop in the bucket" true?

 

Jin, when it comes to the concept of lobbying in the US, I could not agree with you more. The current system is wrought with corruption, kickbacks, and special perks.

Yeppers. Harry Truman, the 33rd President of the US said it best. "When you play with the money boys you pay. (The American people)

Majority of the Lobbyist in the US should be rounded up and arrested for graft along with the US Repersentatives who go along with them.