Significant Differences of Chinese/Western Marriages

[griz326]

Edited March 1, 2009 by griz326 (see edit history)

[Yuanyang]

Here is a conversation by someone only one day ago:

 

LP:Ok, we buy this house.

LG:Fine, [to Agent] make an offer of $$$ for this house.

[we leave]

[10 minutes later]

LP:You know other house was very good.

LG:uh-huh

LP:You know I like other house.

LG:It was nice.

LP:I want other house.

LG:What!

LP:I think other house is better.

LG:Why did you just ask to buy THIS house?

LP:I think other house is better now.

[Craig and Mingjun]

Nice point, Don. I asked the question about why there are many Japanese things in China, and got that response "Good products, bad people". The Chinese are pragmatic, they are not going to let a superior product go to waste because they don't like who made it. I don't think you would ever see a boycott of an product in China because the company or country it comes from does something somebody doesn't like.

 

Just my two yuan worth, the Toyota Matrix is a very reliable and versatile vehicle. It gets the mileage of a compact, but has enough room to be able to haul things. It is billed as a compact station wagon.

 

I think my Chinese bride likes the practical car I have (it is a Pontiac Vibe, which is a Toyota Matrix in drag ) I think my practical nature has earned me points in the relationship. I guess I should ask about an Americanized name, but I think she does not need one.

[Cerberus]

To all readers,

 

My thanks and apologies for taking two days off and leaving this issue hanging by its fingertips, on a cliff. I just need to respond to a huge flurry, E-mails, give some advice that resulted from questions I was posed, logically order my thoughts regard to what was important, and finally to get some very well deserved rest.

 

So again, my thanks to all of your for your PMs, gracious stroking to my ego (I promise, I¡¯ll try not to let my head swell to much! LOL!). I especially want to thank Griz and LeeFisher3 for giving me the inspiration for a later posting on these same issues. However, it will be along a totally different subject line. This posting should bring both the ¡°newbies¡± to CFL and the ¡°old-timers¡± (Good Ole Boy¡¯s Club LOL!) together under the flag of the same identical issue!

 

My God! The people that knew me from a long time ago in CFL must by now be rolling on the floor is surprise. The Cerberus that they never expected! LOL!

 

This aside, I returned and reviewed my past postings. I knew that SOMETHING was amiss and I wasn¡¯t making the connection about. It soon became the itch I couldn¡¯t scratch for several hours. Then it hit ME! I forgot the most important thanks to the one person that helped create this thread. My own wife! Dahhhhhh! Talk about stupid! LOL!

 

Darling, thanks for giving me the knowledge that I give to others. The trip has not always been easy. However, the good times far outweigh the bad times. My thanks Yin, for the love you have given to me as your greatest gift that can be given to a man, such as me.

 

Now that this is aside, lets get back to it.

 

As disclaimer to the readers and those that are just starting to read, please understand that the information contained in these writings are mine that I have gathered from a multiple amounts of reading/and research, comments made here and in other forums and most especially from a 5 year marriage to my wife, coupled with 15 years plus, visiting and/or living in the Far East.

 

I have deliberately left out hyperlinks for readers. I personally felt feel that these writings should be used as a guide and tool to the reader. Not a wheelchair. The reader will learn far more by reading this thread and then going back and doing their own research. Remember: what works well for my family, can turn your own family and/or relationship into a three-ring circus of hurt feelings, confusion, etc, etc.

 

When I do take a quote from someone, credit will be given to the author so that plagiarism doesn¡¯t raise its ugly head.

 

I went back and reviewed my past posting. I believe that I may have acted rashly and mislabeled one major area and this is the Sub-topic:

 

 

Cultural Values of Both Genders.

 

I believe that it far better that I rename this right here and now as:

 

 

Traditional Values of the Chinese Woman

 

If you noticed I have eliminated the possibilities of me attempting to explain anything about men, which is about as nebulous of a subject that you could find anywhere. I would have a far easier time explaining the glide path of a sparrow in a tornado, than to explain the many varieties of men¡¯s feelings, values and cultural attitudes.

 

I revised it also since, the values of Chinese women has been changing for a long time and age plays a huge difference in what they expect, need or desire.

 

So I ¡°copped out!¡± LOL! There I said it. If the reader desires to call me a ¡°wishy-washy Charlie Brown;¡± the so be it!

 

The atypical Chinese woman, today and IMHO is a mix of what commonly expects from a ¡°traditional¡± Chinese woman and a new evolving Chinese hybrid that has new ideals, goals and values.

 

What the culture the woman is raised in (speaking from a Province-view), what are her ¡°imprinted¡± family values, what new learned behaviors she has, can be as different as night is from day. In short, there is no sure way that you can press every Chinese woman into a mold and then state: Eureka! That is my wife/fianc¨¦e!

 

My wife is from Sichuan and was raised in a very traditional household. Therefore, she is approximately 75% traditional and 25% hybrid new Chinese woman.

 

Most of the traditional Chinese women, including my wife intend to marry for life. Bottom Line. Unless they are a green card ride, etc, at least 80% of the Chinese women are seeking a permanent long-term relationship. The typical Chinese woman will attempt to put every ounce of her being and love into the marriage, family and their future.

 

This seems to be a non-brainier to most of us.

 

However, it is far trickier than this! This where people begin getting into trouble! This IMHO, is primarily due to inattention and/or empathy on their part to their Chinese wife. Hate to ruin everyone¡¯s day, but I assure you that these values never go away! The base cultural values are merely modified as they come into the new Western environment. However! You can well wager, your last damn paycheck that they are there, and remain there until death.

 

Lets speak one of the greatest failings in a marriage that leads to divorce, East or West.

 

 

 

MONEY! And/or lack of!

The atypical Chinese woman expects her husband to be frugal and not spend money like a ¡°drunken sailor.¡± She expects the man to be the head of the household and be the primary breadwinner. She is concerned about money, since she is keenly aware that you can¡¯t eat love! She is caring for her and her family¡¯s future life. Wouldn¡¯t the reader do the same thing, if they were an intelligent? She will want to know before marriage that you are financially stable and do have some income. Ergo, why do some people get pissed when a woman wants to know these things? I have heard this inane dribble so long and generally followed with the comment like: ¡°She wants to know how much I make or what kind of job I have! She must be a gold-digger!¡±

 

There is so much insanity and lack of reason on this point, I wonder sometimes if the inquirer isn¡¯t on drugs or just simply stupid. Of course she is checking your economic status out stupid. I mean after all you met her on AsianFriendFinder, Hot Mail, China love or wherever. I¡¯ll wager that she didn¡¯t go to HotTransientsWorld.com for a husband! You are surprised that she is not going ask this question? And even if she is enamored by your fantastic looks and charms, her family will be going over you too!

 

There are times when I see this particular issue raised in GUZ and white slips issued. How many times have members had bare minimum monetary requirements and were turned down? For readers go back and read Jany (CFL) and the fires of Hell she went through. Yes! Definitely there was horrible abuse. However, when I first read the first time, I immediately detected control and monetary issues.

 

The atypical Chinese woman expects the man to be the breadwinner. Circumstances can change and I was laid off one for 1 month. My wife stuck by me, gave me comfort and solace, until I obtained new employment. She was down at times and felt helpless to not be able to help out more. When I received new employment, her mood immediately perked up! This should aptly make my point and what was stated previously.

 

As an example, when I first met my wife I was a student finishing up graduate studies. Therefore, I was a student. Yin and I began conversing via China Love. The subject of my career, our future and money came up. I recognized her fears and addressed them appropriately. I gave her links of what I would be doing, what were expected incomes of a person starting out, mid career and high levels of the career. Suffice to say, her family was more than a bit leery. To shorten the story, I arrived in China the first time and was immediately ¡°grilled¡± by the family. I assure you that love didn¡¯t arrive into the equation for this three hours discussion. They already knew this. They wanted to know about OUR future and the mixing of two cultures.

 

So people that are students take my advice; this subject WILL come up and you better have your head out of your ¡°four-pointed contact¡± and have good answers ready. You think that the VOs in GUZ are bad? Wait until you meet a Chinese woman¡¯s family.

 

BTW, you want to see some really rough shit regard to visas and VOs? Go to the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, India and even Mexico forum. GUZ, is a walk through the park compared to them! In these places you better have your collective crap together!

 

In closing the woman desires to take care of the home, sometimes her own career and her family and this is the job she accepts. Men! Guess what your job is?

 

 

 

Compatibility.

 

The atypical Chinese woman once she is married, or is committing to a serious relationship, wants to be with or around that person constantly. Men, if you don¡¯t like touchy feeling and/or mushy stuff, you better get your act together! I¡¯ll explain further in a minute.

 

She wants to not only wants to love, but also she wants the love returned to her. LOL! Sometimes, the women can be a bit greedy about this particular two-way street, gentlemen.

 

However I digress.

 

Happy Chinese women want to spend as much time as they can with you. This includes, beaches, parks, theaters, woods, libraries, or very simple walks with her. Even a dull routine night at home watching television or whatever and saying a single woman, there are times when she will get up to get something and will touch you is passing. At the risk of psychological babble this if referred to as ¡°tactile stroking.¡± To the average layperson, it is usually so brief that it is a sign that is commonly missed and/or understand the conveyed feelings with a single touch.

 

1 ) They are reassuring themselves that you are still there.

 

2 ) They are stating subtly that they care and love you, and further acknowledge your presence and love for them.

 

3 ) The atypical Chinese woman hasn¡¯t received this same treatment in China from her past culture. I won¡¯t even deliberate this point further, since there is a plethora of articles related to the Chinese man/woman relationships. I¡¯m staying on topic with what many have today and will further tomorrow.

 

Physical and verbal abuse will also destroy this love that they have and cause both of you loss of face. The physical abuse is self-explanatory. The verbal abuse can consist of demeaning and/or condescending attitudes about her culture, not taking pride that your wife is Chinese and loving her for it, correcting her in front of others and/or your friends, sarcastic remarks, etc, etc! The list is endless! The old Golden rule applies here! ¡°Treat others, as you wish to be treated!¡± If you truly fully understand Chinese of whatever, dialect and your wife did the same thing to you in China; how would you feel? Remember that this is her home-court advantage and you are just another ¡°chutzpah¡± laowei, which makes many mistakes in China! You lack of Chinese or not understanding Chinese customs will be a source of embarrassment for her! Would you like to be treated in the same way? BTW, this isn¡¯t directed at the majority. It is primarily directed the few apples that might spoil the entire barrel. However, for the majority; perhaps there are certain statements that cause you to violate what I stated above. Why not ask the best cop, to see if you are wrong or what really pisses her off! Your own wife! Ask her and have a fruitful discussion and perhaps you will find out things that you totally missed. BTW, I¡¯m just as guilty and have already done this! I was surprised at the things and how many times I inadvertely placed my foot in my mouth and the little things that she perceives and understand that piss her off, but she keeps her mouth shut about!

 

Here is an example of love/verbal abuse/controlling that I spoke of previously and is exactly what I saw in LAX while dropping my wife off. I know who he is and I will give no one clues innuendos about his identity. I recognized him from photographs.

 

I was dropping off my wife at LAX for her recent trip and we were standing in the inevitable line in California! LOL! Sorry folks! In California, 90% of your time is spent traveling from point A to B, you are stuck in gridlock traffic or waiting in line! 5% of our time is spent being serviced and the remaining time is spent correcting someone else¡¯s mistake! LOL!

 

However, I digress and I will rein in my celebrated wit and humor. We were standing in line when an American man and his Chinese wife entered through the terminal doors. He had the heavy luggage and she toted several hand carried bags and obviously she wasn¡¯t Arnold the way she was exhausted. I started to head that way to help. However, my wife held me back, since the man was pointing, shouting directions to her and gesticulating in numerous and different directions. Suffice to say that the line (primarily Chinese), turned and looked at the man and his wife. There were some serious looks of anger with the Chinese men and one American. ME! He lined his wife up and continued lecturing her about her flight plans, when to call him, how could she be so stupid to forget this or that! BTW, should I mention gesticulating, shouting and pointing here or there the entire time? This tirade continued onwards for 15 minutes, until I could move my wife up to the terminal departure gate. My wife did caution me not to come back and kick hiss skull in. My thoughts? No thanks honey, I¡¯ll kill him! Instead, I will kick his baggage around and cause him to miss his flight! A lesser offense and probably would go as a civil matter! I know! A dream! I would have hurt the woman more than I hurt him.

 

However, my last thoughts and impressions were of the woman. She was maybe 37 to 40 years of age looking at her face. However, she looked worn down and appeared to be 45! WTF? This is love that I see your posts about and how you extol your virtues? The woman looked like a whipped and beaten down dog, which always complied with the Master¡¯s orders.

 

Got good news for you fat buddy! My wife and yours ended up sitting one seat away from each other. You know how Chinese women gossip and network? They both had about 12 sleepless hours on the flight together talking! Fat buddy, to quote Judas Priest; ¡°You gotta another thing comin!¡± I suggest that you pay very close attention to this posting.

 

I only have one prayer for God! Please, God send this moron to me in San Diego when we are alone!

 

Anyway, enough of this. This is how respect is lost. I suppose Fat Buddy, does serve some useful purpose and sinks this point home very aptly.

 

I will give to small examples of exactly what I stated previously about love. The first example is my wife and I. This tactile stroking I spoke of earlier, is done very frequently. I may be reading a book, studying. Yin will be on the computer, reading or whatever. Not a word is spoken for 1 to 1.5 hours. My wife will arise to refill my teacup, go to the restroom. Her favorite place is to touch my ears or neck (BTW, mine too! LOL), as she passes me. Very lightly! However, more than enough to get my attention that she hasn¡¯t forgotten about me, love and compassion are still there.

 

Another case is we will be sitting quietly doing our own interests, perhaps in opposite rooms. Yin will call my name. I promptly will respond and ask what she needs. Quite commonly, she will state nothing! She just wanted to hear my voice. WOW! ¡°Auditory-stroking!¡±

 

The second example that I offer is a man that I talk with very frequently. Out of respect for his privacy I will reduce details and names. However, his is a perfect example to what I have stated about companionships issues that Chinese women seek and desire.

 

They both come from diverse and intermixed and really complicated backgrounds. They met each other, and a beautiful relationship began. We were talking one day and stated that she was coming for a visit to the Northeast and he fretted about what to do with her and her daughter. I obtained some background information regard to some property he had and made some suggestions. These ladies arrived and did all of the things that he loved and immediately fell in love with the same values, making homemade maple syrup that they tapped from his trees, saw wildlife not confined in a zoo, Rode a string of Morgan horses, went grocery shopping with snowmobiles and the list goes on and on. He attempted to bundle them up as much as he could, but they still caught a cold. I was afraid when we talked later that the woman would ¡°jack his ass up,¡± due to their disease. Not so. They both healed up and went back into they fray, full-bore! They simply switched gears, went for the hot chocolate, tea, soups, Alka Seltzer Cold Plus, and s¡¯mores by a fireplace. As a humorous side note; most Chinese dislike this much processed sugar at one sitting. She confirmed this dislike, by eating 6 or 7 s¡¯mores to confirm her dislike. Yeah right! Chinese women never lie! LOL!

 

To end this second example, their relationship is doing extremely well. This example shows you the exact issues I stated previously, how adaptable a Chinese woman, and not to mention the ¡°psychological stroking¡± that she and her daughter are giving to her future husband/father. What better gift can be given to us in our relationships and to both of them?

 

Look at your own relationship and look for the same subtle keys, that I¡¯m discussing.

 

To add to this particular; I have been asked frequently by first time arrivers to China; how should they approach China, the culture and a new future relationship? Very simple! Eyes wide open, with scientific logic and observation coupled with no preconceived ideas and a ¡°child-like¡± curiosity for what they see, hear, touch and feel in their hearts. After this, the Chinese culture, China itself as a country and you new relationship will finish your education.

 

 

 

Trust and Face:

 

This area is slightly related to Compatibility, previously talked about.

 

Trust is tantamount to any successful relationship. With the atypical Chinese woman, it is gained fairly easily. Once a serious relationship and/or love sets in the trust becomes written in stone. This then continues into the marriage.

 

However, trust is so hard to be gained and yet so easily lost!

 

Attempting to control the Chinese woman is one sure-fire way of not only losing this trust, but is damned sure a loss of face for her! She already knows her English is sub-par and/or she has an accent. She is keenly aware that many others and possibly the husband use a Western ruler to measure her up against other women in the West. Chinese women have been treated in their own culture as second-class citizens and they aren¡¯t tolerating it anymore! The new evolving Chinese woman hybrid is making new gains and they darn sure aren¡¯t going backwards from what they have gained. If there any doubt why the divorce rate is rising in China?

 

The average woman wants to be respected for her opinions and will demand a say in family matters! Most especially if she feels that you are making a stupid knuckleheaded decision in her opinion, as example; buying the last and best bass-fishing boat! This woman will be on you akin to ¡°white on rice!¡± This controlling issue has been around a long damn time. The CCP tried it and failed, and if history shows mistakes, you aren¡¯t going to control her! The best we can do is to divert the water. Not stop it altogether! You try this and I assure you that you will ¡°drown!¡±

 

The woman will change and adapt to her new environment in her own way and at her own pace. She is mentally sorting out what she needs to keep from her traditional Chinese imprinted and learned culture and what she needs to discard. The best that we as men can do is act as a friend, mentor, counsel and advise.

 

There are few times when I put my foot down solidly with my wife, unless I know that it will fail and I¡¯m protecting her. Even then, negotiations are begun, compromises are reached, etc.

 

 

 

Friends and Family

 

The typical Chinese woman wants their friends and families near them. The Chinese culture is far more cohesive unit that Western families and friends are. There are exceptions of course. But by and large groups are tighter in China by far.

 

The newly arrived woman in the West is truly lost at times and needs a bit of channeling. The reason is that the network that she had in China is suddenly removed. This leaves us as men holding the proverbial ¡°burnt end of a stick!¡± This is her new world and you and I are the only anchors that she has.

 

Hence, we see many posting about Chinese websites, television via computer, Chinese TV Channels, books, etc, etc, on CFL. These IMHO, are reactions and requests for assistance from members to aid in this loss of network that our wives suffer.

 

By the sheer volumes of posts and assistance rendered, they still simply aren¡¯t enough to make up her lost social network. All of these devices are electronic and the women want to be able to see, hear and communicate directly face-to-face, with another Chinese person. Not electronically! This is the Western way. Not Chinese way.

 

Is there not a better reason, to see why they become bored? The members near huge Chinese communities are fortunate in this aspect. However, what of the person in Mississippi, North Dakota, Iowa and Nebraska? They don¡¯t have this luxury, and are reduced to electronic friendships.

 

The longer they are in this environment, the worse that it gets. Chinese women are adaptable and want to be with their husbands. They begin burying their feelings and putting on a brave face. 1 or 2 years go by and the camel gets the final straw. It isn¡¯t the particular issue they are pissed off about. It her loss of social network, the sacrifices she had made for her family and buried what she truly feels away deep inside of her mind!

 

Eventually these feelings come out.

 

Even though I live in San Diego, my wife feels the same and sees the differences in Western relationships, whether American or Chinese.

 

That is the reason that I send my wife on extended separate vacations. I want her to feel this network again, begin embracing her culture that she has lost to be with me. The last thing she needs is an interfering laowei husband getting in the way, as she does double-duty as a translator. It also gives a separate breather from each other, to both of us. When the marriage comes back together; the marriage is rejuvenated, gifts and news are exchanged, she can deal with the West for another year and look forward to the next trip, and I get my tactile stroking back and more, if you understand what I mean. LOL! However this is for another topic later in time.

 

I will close for now and begin to pace myself.

The next segment is extremely hard and will take a couple of days to get together. This regard to Sex and Love. BTW, there will be no lurid sexual details, ¡°How-to¡± photos, favorite Chinese sexual positions, etc. It will be strictly academic and very factual.

 

Please keep and open mind consider what I have said previously. Many times Westerners take China for what it is granted. This is a completely different culture. Yes! We as American¡¯s believe in equal rights, etc, etc. We lead the world in this aspect! IMHO, there are no fairer people. However, Chinese have a culture that is more ancient and culturally refined. China although they have advanced enormously in the last 30 years, is still developing and will make new cultural values.

 

However, make no mistake! This is an entirely different culture. Yes! Women are women the world over, with all of the idiosyncrasies that are inherent to the gender. This is not the issue. The true issue is that we have married Chinese women and it is a very different culture. Now we have the common woman and into the mixture we throw Chinese cultural differences in. Ergo, my glibly coining of the term of a hybrid!

 

One of the conclusions I reached about 15 years ago in my travels is that, what Westerners can¡¯t see, touch, or logically reasoned out, isn¡¯t really all that different. At the risk of sounding political and shutting this thread down, I assure you that it is not and is extremely different. I reached my first conclusions of this fact in South Korea and with my wife today; the conclusion has stood up to the acid test.

 

I want to relieve some pressure from the CFL male members. The atypical Chinese woman expects you to understand who and what she is and she shouldn¡¯t have to explain it to you. She expects that you already know what I have stated in this thread. IMHO, this is a fallacy on their part and they are/should be a part of the solution too. Men have the largest burden but Chinese women also must bear part of the load too! Both, women and men must meet and understand each other. They must both learn about each other¡¯s culture, embrace each other¡¯s culture as assets and treasures, and finally to have true empathy to what each other must go through and hopefully many years down the road.

 

Gentlemen, the burden is yours and mine! No one held a shotgun wedding in China, or held your arm scribbling your signature out on a 129 application or on a Red Book in China!

 

The women rely on us and that is THAT! How you use the information is up to you. However, I would suggest that each member go home, ponder what I have said, make it fir their family and seek what I have already found. I assure you, that with me it pays dividends. At the risk of repeating myself, keep one thing in mind:

 

¡°¡­Very simple! Eyes wide open, with scientific logic and observation coupled with no preconceived ideas and a ¡°child-like¡± curiosity for what they see, hear, touch and feel in their hearts.¡±

 

Take care all. I truly hope that you can use this information as a tool and find the love that I share with my wife! Even if you consider your relationship as perfect, will it stand up against the ¡°acid test¡± of the passage of time? For the good relationships use this information as a tool to make a fantastic marriage.

 

 

 

Dave

Edited March 2, 2009 by Cerberus (see edit history)

[Cerberus]

Damn, Cerby...take a breath.

 

Just got around to reading this and must say I'm on board with most of what you've said. In fact, I'm gonna pin this so it stays on the front page.

 

Those who have been around a while know that I've posted before that my 5+ year marriage with "she who must be obeyed" hasn't been all that smooth. The first couple of years were really tough. She had never even been in a strong relationship before and had many unrealistic expectations of what a marriage should be. And, yes, mine were flawed as well since I didn't realize what you have posted here. But I learned and she learned and we now have a great partnership. We still argue on occasion, but that's normal. The thing is, the love doesn't end just because of a conflict.

 

You mentioned something about your wife's American name. Xiahong and I talked about her taking one before she came here. I think she expected that I wanted her to take one; I thought she wanted one since her given name is kinda hard to pronounce. I finally said to hell with it - no Americanized name. Her father gave her her name, and that's what it should stay. Made some points with that one. Her father died 20 years ago and she deeply loved him. She says I'm a lot like he was and I'm proud to hear that. Sure wish I could have met him.

 

Xiahong IS Chinese, always was and always will be. She has adapted pretty well here in the US and has only been back once when we went last fall. She likes it here and sees the differences between our life here and her life in China. She still says she doesn't know what she will do when I croak. The most she says is that in China she would have family near.

 

Another thing I will mention that's on topic is that convoluted logic she uses. She will say something that is 180 out and I can't for the life of me figure out how she got to her conclusion - until she explains it. Then I can see how she got there, but it's still 180 out by my thinking. When this happens, we figure out how to proceed taking a little from both.

 

In short, this is the weirdest relationship I've been in. I've never felt so loved and cared for - or as hated and despised. Tact is not in her vocabulary. Whatever is on her mind is what I will hear, in no uncertain terms. But this is the trip of a lifetime and one I wouldn't miss for the world.

 

Don,

 

I fully agree with you. I have had the same problems as you have to a greater or lesser degree, depending on what side of the barn you stand on. The same is probably true of all marriage and individual families.

 

Regard to the logic issue, I can't agree with you more. I don't consider myself as the dullest person in the world. However, many times, I'm left in her "dust" attempting to figure out where she went or how we got here. May I suggest a white board? There are a couple of times my wife made a drawing as a road map! They were just as confusing.

 

She talked with me about a week ago. Stated that she decided on a new American name! "Annie!" I told her to stay in China until she recovers! Honestly; I think she was just pulling my chain. I wasn't laughing when I fell out of the computer chair though!

 

Yep I agree with you 110% However, I'm like you! I wouldn't give it up for the world! We are still happy and going strong!

 

Dave

Edited March 2, 2009 by Cerberus (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Dave (Cerberus),

 

You've made several very good points. I would have to say, that in my case, before and a good while after we married, I believed that it would be easier for my wife to adjust to me and Western culture, far easier that it would be for me to adjust to hers. I did everything I could to familiarize her; a bit of travel, helping her get a driver's license, and did my best to ensure her independence. Still, there were perceptions that she had, and still has that I can never quite put my finger on. Does she want more from me, less from me, would it been better if I did things differently?

 

The long and short of it, is that I was pretty much ignorant of Chinese culture, and spent my life listening to other Westerners tell me about how things were and are. I don't know that there is a silver bullet to overcome the challenges of an Chinese / Western marriage, but for sure, I've learned several ways it should not, and cannot be done.

 

I often find that what I think is happening, or what I think I understand is quite mistaken. Many of the problems we've had stem from the frustrations associated with both cultural and language misunderstandings. I also find that assuming that she understands what I say, is never a good idea. It also rarely seems a good idea to try to get verbal feedback to affirm that I understand.

 

Like any woman however, she is easiest to talk to, when I'm not pushy, express kindness and warmth. I am learning to refrain from using any form of, "I told you so," when she does something on her own. She really prefers being independent, and learning things her way, rather than having me provide her with a step-by-step procedure. She doesn't view that hassle of getting it wrong the same way as I do. For her, she is simply learning, and rather enjoys that process when I keep my nose out of it. Invariably however, I want to stick my nose into it, to keep her from making mistakes; I guess it's the protector in me, but I'm learning.

[Cerberus]

Cerby, one thing I want to comment on from your latest offering. You said a Chinese wife would stick for life, or something to that effect. What I've observed, not only from my wife, but from being on these forums for close to ten years is that 'love' means totally different things between a Chinese woman and a US man. We westerners are romantics; Chinese are pragmatics. I see some guys being confused when a woman tells them they 'love' them after a short period of time - fearing a scammer. That's usually not the case.

 

My observation is that a Chinese woman decides; makes a conscious decision to hook up with someone. It's not emotional. They seek a 'good mate'. Someone who will treat them with respect and PROVIDE for them now and in their old age. When they make that decision, they are yours and they will fight to the death for you. Love will blossom in its own good time.

 

However, if you treat them wrong or prove to be much less than they bargined for, that 'switch' turns off. When that happens, you have lost them for good. They will leave and never look back.

 

Perchance the guy you saw at the airport is about to get some news.

 

Damn Don!

 

Dead on target! Each woman and their idea of what they perceive of love is a bit different than someone else's. That is why I put that thought forward in the beginning of the post, hoping that reader's would pick up on it. You did!

 

A Chinese woman will weigh all of her options and see for the lack of a better term: How sure of a bet are you?

 

My wife did this weighing me being a student and her future life. Any person that wouldn't take this aspect into some type of consideration, is just looking to get hit by a truck!

 

You are correct in another fact that Chinese women don;t want to hear from your lips how much you love! They want you to to show how much your care in action!

 

Yes, my wife give the routine obligatory I love you's to each other! However, they really mean about as much as you meeting a person in the street and asking how are you? Do you really care! Not in the least and both of us don't want to hear about his/her poor day! This is a expected societal expectation acknowledging the other persons intrinsic value.

 

That is what I stated about the variety of strokings. You wife doesn't get off the couch and state loudly that she loves you. Rather, she touches you to let you know how she feels, or will call your name. That is why I encouraged members to go back and look into their relationships and look for these small subtle signs. I assure that they are there, even older gents like you!

 

BTW, like Griz and older members with older wife's what I'm talking about, the circumstances do change radically as well over the passage of time, the length of the marriage and the acclimatization of the woman/man to the West. What were the words that were used in a John Wayne movie? "You (referring to John Wayne) are comfortable!"

 

Perhaps, you should change your screen name from Donahso to Duke! You comfortable old chair you!

 

Dave

 

 

 

I Went back to edit this post for a specific comment I failed to address:

 

This is in regard to Chinese women and their pragmatism regard to marriage. Please understand that your wife is for the lack of a better term "untouchable" goods in China and most esp w/children. They didn't just accidentally stumble into China Love or wherever office and sign up! Obviously, there is an agenda afoot! No crap!

 

However, are these women seeking something better than what they have today and aren't they protecting their families/children and loss of their own face? My own wife suffered a divorce, not due to infidelity or some other horror story. She simply wanted a person that respected her, listened to her, cared for her, that she could do the same with.

 

However, as Don pointed out; they do indeed have an agenda. No one is this stupid to hook their chains onto a "falling star!" I wouldn't and neither would you! Why is should be unexpected or peculiar, that a Chinese woman seeking a Western husband not do the same thing?

 

Most Chinese women don't know about the love that we express as lovers in a loving Western relationship. In short; they are "virgins" that need a bit of guidance. Want to have a shitty relationship? Please, feel free not to advise and mentor her and recognize what she wants. I will promise you a peck of trouble down the road! This is what Chinese women were seeking for in the first place: a husband, a breadwinner, etc, etc that I have posted about, in the first place. Please remember what I stated previously: You can't eat love! Not lovemaking! I'm speaking of treating them as women with love, empathy, showing them respect that they truly matter and have value in the world. If you can do this...the lovemaking or whatever will flow naturally all by itself, with no help from you, "thank you very much!"

Edited March 2, 2009 by Cerberus (see edit history)

[Cerberus]

Dave (Cerberus),

 

You've made several very good points. I would have to say, that in my case, before and a good while after we married, I believed that it would be easier for my wife to adjust to me and Western culture, far easier that it would be for me to adjust to hers. I did everything I could to familiarize her; a bit of travel, helping her get a driver's license, and did my best to ensure her independence. Still, there were perceptions that she had, and still has that I can never quite put my finger on. Does she want more from me, less from me, would it been better if I did things differently?

 

The long and short of it, is that I was pretty much ignorant of Chinese culture, and spent my life listening to other Westerners tell me about how things were and are. I don't know that there is a silver bullet to overcome the challenges of an Chinese / Western marriage, but for sure, I've learned several ways it should not, and cannot be done.

 

I often find that what I think is happening, or what I think I understand is quite mistaken. Many of the problems we've had stem from the frustrations associated with both cultural and language misunderstandings. I also find that assuming that she understands what I say, is never a good idea. It also rarely seems a good idea to try to get verbal feedback to affirm that I understand.

 

Like any woman however, she is easiest to talk to, when I'm not pushy, express kindness and warmth. I am learning to refrain from using any form of, "I told you so," when she does something on her own. She really prefers being independent, and learning things her way, rather than having me provide her with a step-by-step procedure. She doesn't view that hassle of getting it wrong the same way as I do. For her, she is simply learning, and rather enjoys that process when I keep my nose out of it. Invariably however, I want to stick my nose into it, to keep her from making mistakes; I guess it's the protector in me, but I'm learning.

 

Gentlemen of CFL and Jesse, you damn well better listen here to a man at China "Ground Zero!"

 

Jesse you are absolutely correct in what you have stated and could not agree more with you! I have always second-guessed myself and asked myself what if I did this? What could I have done better? Me adapting to Chinese culture, more quickly than my wife adapting to a Western Culture? You gotta be kidding me! She would win hands down! I have a better chance of turning into a seagull and soaring over Coronado Island, than my ever completely assimilating into the Chinese culture totally!

 

Therefore, we come back to the control issue. To me it sounds like you handled her as best as what I stated previously; Protecting her, mentoring her, etc, etc. I would not feel sad in the least if I was in your shoes.

 

One comment you made was this and is very significant:

 

"...Like any woman however, she is easiest to talk to, when I'm not pushy, express kindness and warmth. I am learning to refrain from using any form of, "I told you so," when she does something on her own. She really prefers being independent, and learning things her way, rather than having me provide her with a step-by-step procedure."

 

Jesse, this what I meant about stopping the river. Instead, you chose to divert the water in a quiet and lovingly manner. Water, (a Chinese woman/man) will always chose the best path that for their particular river (desires, dreams. goals and aspirations). Yes! It does seem to be controlling, but in actuality it is not. Your mother and mine did the same when we stood on a street corner and crossed it for the first time. They controlled us and/or diverted our own rivers also didn't they? Were the imposing their wills or protecting the one that they love? Aren't you doing the same thing? Our problem we have as husbands, is not to be too controlling. There are times, that I will not stop my wife from a silly venture she has. While she takes off, I get the Handi Wipes out and prepare for the inevitable mess. Many times, it is better to let them skin their knees with a failed venture and learn from the lesson.

 

Dave

Edited March 2, 2009 by Cerberus (see edit history)

[Guest Pommey]

Cerby, one thing I want to comment on from your latest offering. You said a Chinese wife would stick for life, or something to that effect. What I've observed, not only from my wife, but from being on these forums for close to ten years is that 'love' means totally different things between a Chinese woman and a US man. We westerners are romantics; Chinese are pragmatics. I see some guys being confused when a woman tells them they 'love' them after a short period of time - fearing a scammer. That's usually not the case.

 

My observation is that a Chinese woman decides; makes a conscious decision to hook up with someone. It's not emotional. They seek a 'good mate'. Someone who will treat them with respect and PROVIDE for them now and in their old age. When they make that decision, they are yours and they will fight to the death for you. Love will blossom in its own good time.

 

However, if you treat them wrong or prove to be much less than they bargined for, that 'switch' turns off. When that happens, you have lost them for good. They will leave and never look back.

 

Perchance the guy you saw at the airport is about to get some news.

 

 

 

yep, I guess "fat buddy" will hear the chinese version of the "riot act" soon

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Edited March 2, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[Craig and Mingjun]

Dave, thanks again for this topic. So many things make sense now, and I feel damn lucky. I work for a college, and we have a number of Chinese professors and a number of Chinese students come to our institution every year. Since I had never been to China, I asked for advice about what I should take, what books to read, and other information. This is where the luck comes in, I managed to take some very appropriate gifts for the family just by accident. When we first met face to face, there was an instant connection (for both of us based on our conversations). I did not get grilled by the family, but they got first hand information from a better source: Mingjun's best friend, who happens to speak English fairly well. Now that I reflect, I was being gently probed from the minute I arrived.

 

So, what we have here is an arranged marriage, with my Chinese woman as the arranger Now I am not complaining, I am very happy with the arrangement. The friend helped arrange the engagement, and assisted in teaching me how to properly request the hand of Mingjun from her parents, with appropriate dowry and order of events. Like I said, I was damn lucky.

 

Both of my trips ended up with Mingjun taking me in hand, and we pretty much spent the entire 47 days of my two trips living together. There may have been a total of 6 hours the entire time in country we were not together. On the first trip she took a couple of hours to go shopping without me to get the best prices on gifts for my family. On the second trip she to a couple hours to get all dolled up for the wedding ceremony.

 

And gifts. My suitcases ended up crammed full both directions. Her friends and family really are into that tradition I always try to make sure I take thoughtful, practical, and unique gifts when I visit.

 

As Dave is so fond of pointing out, your mileage may very. I am just thankful Dave has shared his insights, and I am now able to see the meaning behind some of my experiences.

[Yuanyang]

Don, you said "...there is no gray area." That's the damn truth! New guys better get use to that in a hurry. You, it, them or that is either ALL good or ALL bad. There is nothing in between.

 

Also, you (at least I) get to know what devotion really means and that 'love' isn't a feeling but a constant flow action

[Guest Pommey]

would love to see some of the "oldies" wives making a post here

[Cerberus]

I get the same thing, Bob. We've been talking about buying a car later this year and she's convinced it has to be a Toyota (she's been told by other Chinese women they are good cars). No point in arguing; I asked he why, if she hates Japanese, why she wants a Japanese car. Good car, bad people. Everything is black and white, nothing is gray. I'm the opposite, everything is a different shade of gray. Makes for interesting discussions at times.

 

Boy Don are you lucky!

 

Yin is taking driving lessons from a Chinese (speaking may add!) in china. This is far better than me teaching her driving in California traffic, conducting an ESL language short course, all the while negotiating a left hand-turn. I just guessing that I'm saving about $200.00 in Valium alone.

 

However to you point. Yep the better half wanted her own Honda, Toyota too, save gas, not to big, etc.

 

What has been posted in CFL soooooo many times? When one Chinese trusts another, does not matter if they know they are talking about...... what they say they are is always RIGHT!

 

He has recommended a Mercedes for safety of a new driver! He stated that the 500 series is fairly safe! I hope that he is the co-signer for me! Guess what I started shopping for?

 

 

 

However, later she changed her mind. She called and told me she decided on a "wol wo!"

 

"Honey WTF is a "wol wo"?"

 

Took about a couple minutes and the same Chinese instructor told her this is a safe car too! Then it hit me Gentlemen of CFL, this is how native Chinese people call a Volvo!

 

Myself, greatly relieved since I was saving around $20,000, buying a "wol wo" as compared to a 500 Series Mercedes!

 

To be honest Don, my wife doesn't have too many grudges against Japanese. The only time this issue comes up is when a Westerner in San Diego or wherever, asks if she is Japanese. Where they get this weird idea from I don't know.

 

I would definitely agree with you regard to the black vs white issue. She will stay one way until she finds out that it sucks and then switches to white, entirely missing the gray area that is in between and probably far closer to the issue.

 

Dave

[Cerberus]

Dave, thanks again for this topic. So many things make sense now, and I feel damn lucky. I work for a college, and we have a number of Chinese professors and a number of Chinese students come to our institution every year. Since I had never been to China, I asked for advice about what I should take, what books to read, and other information. This is where the luck comes in, I managed to take some very appropriate gifts for the family just by accident. When we first met face to face, there was an instant connection (for both of us based on our conversations). I did not get grilled by the family, but they got first hand information from a better source: Mingjun's best friend, who happens to speak English fairly well. Now that I reflect, I was being gently probed from the minute I arrived.

 

So, what we have here is an arranged marriage, with my Chinese woman as the arranger Now I am not complaining, I am very happy with the arrangement. The friend helped arrange the engagement, and assisted in teaching me how to properly request the hand of Mingjun from her parents, with appropriate dowry and order of events. Like I said, I was damn lucky.

 

Both of my trips ended up with Mingjun taking me in hand, and we pretty much spent the entire 47 days of my two trips living together. There may have been a total of 6 hours the entire time in country we were not together. On the first trip she took a couple of hours to go shopping without me to get the best prices on gifts for my family. On the second trip she to a couple hours to get all dolled up for the wedding ceremony.

 

And gifts. My suitcases ended up crammed full both directions. Her friends and family really are into that tradition I always try to make sure I take thoughtful, practical, and unique gifts when I visit.

 

As Dave is so fond of pointing out, your mileage may very. I am just thankful Dave has shared his insights, and I am now able to see the meaning behind some of my experiences.

Craig

 

Thanks for you enlightening story.

 

Remember what I said regard to being with you the entire time? Now you understand perfectly why I said this and you were the acid test to prove my conclusions.

 

I sort of similar to your circumstances. When I first began talking with Yin I was a Pre-med student (Pharmacy) and was working on a minor in Chemistry. I had numerous Chinese fellow students and Chinese professors. I went and asked all of them recommendations. From Chinese students I got a lot of so-so answers, titters/giggles and embarrassed looks from the girls, younger men would give evasive embarassed answers. Only one professor gave me some good advice.

 

In short, I ended up spending countless hours on the Internet, the libraries reading and researching in my spare time. I picked up volumes of information that by the time I reached China, I hit the ground running and Yin completed my tutelage. BTW, I'm still learning today! Hence, my statements that I don't and won't ever profess that I have every answer.

 

There is another entity that helped me.....That was every member in CFL, their postings and thoughts. I read every damn entry from all members and learned an incredible amount from them. Their ideas, failures and successes really cemented the information into my mind! I had begun reading CFL back in Feb or March of 2004, before joining. http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...ic=6373&hl= I damn near knew every step that I needed to take, from my reading of thir postings. Albeit, there would be a few failures along the way, which could easily be alleviated by CFL members.

 

Mingjun's friend is a part of the Chinese social network I was speaking of in my posting. When Chinese friends bond...they bond for life, barring a catastrophic issue, betrayal, etc. They will fight and spat sometimes. However, they always come back together in the end! May I also add that if you ever fight with Mingjun you will be fighting her friend too! I should state that anything you say or do with your wife will immediately be sent via the proverbial "bamboo telegraph!" Plenty of sisterly advice will be rendered too! Been there, done that and have the T-shirt to prove it myself!

 

Two Chinese women against one Western man? Well, you figure up the odds.

 

It sounds like you are off to a roaring start. That is why I encouraged members to use my posting to even improve their happiness and relationship. Please understand this is on-going with my own family 5 years later. That is the hard problem; keeping up what you have today. My wife dislikes a hot fire for a love and marriage. She prefers many slow burning embers. As she has stated the fire burns longer then!

 

Dave