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where's the outrage?


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#31 Tom

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Posted 10 September 2005 - 10:56 PM

One thing always gets me thinking when I read mention of sending back to China in threads.

It seems to be that once our SO gets here, and for some reason it doesn't work out, the assumption is that she would want to stay here.

Well, that assumption certainly can not be made for everyone. I know for sure if my wife were to ever leave me, the first thing she would want to do is go back to China. No one would have to send her.

#32 warpedbored

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Posted 10 September 2005 - 11:48 PM

There are two sides to every story and we have only heard one. Call me dumbass but it seems to me it would be pretty hard to maintain a charade for as long as Mark and Ling have been married. Marriages fail for a myriad of reasons. It doesn't make her a green card chaser. I know Mark is hurting right now and he needs our support but before we get all indignant and start bashing Ling as a green card chaser we ought to think about it a bit.

#33 LeeFisher3

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Posted 10 September 2005 - 11:52 PM

Dave, Iíll tell you where my outrage lies, it lies with suggestions that we should all be outraged by a situation that we donít know much about to begin with. Iím not suggesting anything derogatory against Mark or anyone else who has or is suffering the pain and hurt that he now feels. Iíve met Mark and I wish I had the power to remove his pain. I donít know the whole story and donít need to, I just feel bad that he is suffering this situation.

Many would suggest that we be very careful with internet relationships, well the majority of the people I know on CFL are strictly internet relationships and I have only met a handful in person. So perhaps we should be wary of the people we meet here, because we only know what they write and nothing more.

While there are those who are looking for a green card there are also those looking for a housekeeper, cook and bed warmer, this is part of the world we live in. And there are many who are in search of the love of their life and I really believe that the large majority of those on CFL are in this search to find a lasting love and I wish these people all the best.

If I didnít believe this Iíd be a fool to continue with the process. We each search for our little piece of heaven on this earth and I hope that everyone finds it.

Have you considered that people who know the SOís who have departed might be outraged with the behavior of the crude and uncouth American that hurt their friend? Not that this is the case, but when looking from the other side many times you see the same reflection.

We are involved in a relationshipís with people from a different culture, with different values and goals in life. The question is what do WE do about this, do we demand that they discard every thing that makes up the fiber of their being or do we embrace the differences and seek to build a culture of our own that is only defined by the two people involved in the relationship? The answer to many lasting relationships can be found in this question. Many Americans are divorced these days and the differences and indifference to embrace these differences has much to do with failed marriages.

So if you wish to be outraged, be outraged with the shallow thinking that only says Iím right and everyone else is wrong, be angered by indifference toward anotherís feelings because it is not convenient, and be totally pissed at anyone who would seek to advance themselves by accusing others of wrong doing without knowing or caring about the real story. This statement applies to this thread as well as many of the major events which we are seeing in our country today.

Personally, Iím outraged with anyone who would believe I am so shallow as to listen to only one personís commentary about anything and expect me to jump on the band wagon, every commentary is slanted by one thing or another.

Edited by LeeFisher3, 10 September 2005 - 11:55 PM.


#34 Dennis143

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 12:23 AM

I cannot describe the warning signs without getting into the personal details of what happened.?Maybe one of these days I'll post my story in detail. It's truly amazing how stupid and foolish I was. All the warning signs were there - I just ignored them and made excuses for them. Cultural differences, stress and all that ...

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Hindsight is 20/20

Yes Dave, I've been there too. You want to believe so badly that we just ignor those red flags....you'd think that we'd know by now.
But, dreamers aren't often realist and the only thing we can do is to keep dreaming....

Edited by Dennis143, 11 September 2005 - 12:42 AM.


#35 Randy W

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 12:31 AM

I'm very heartened to see the response to the this topic. I think a lot of us have learned our cultural lessons.

I think the responses have been fair, objective, passionate, and informed, and I've been especially heartened by the responses from some who have been there.

These things happen only when you let them. The most important thing is to give a good relationship every opportunity to succeed. "Warning signs" may or may not lead to anything - don't let them cloud the picture.

#36 Tom

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 12:53 AM

...than by having us vent our rage about his wife, and run down someone who until just recently was the closest person to him. At least unless he initiates it.† ...otherwise I will remain politely silent about it.

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I can't agree more. Remember, Mark is still reading posts on this site, and to make degratory assumptions about his wife could very well make a painful situation for him even more painful - especially if he believes the assumptions to not be true.

And we've got to admit, none of us know better than Mark what is really true here.

Edited by Tom, 11 September 2005 - 01:03 AM.


#37 Feathers268

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 12:58 AM

My opinion is that such "outrage" is tempered because a lot of us start to fear that we may be suckered ourselves. There is a great deal of trust we have to put into someone so far away, and let's not forget that this forum has seen bad intentions on the part of the petitioner as well.
Yes, there have been times I wondered if my Jennifer was playing me but the harder I tried looking into it, I came up with either she is so very good at hiding her intentions or I am in such a state of denial, that I could not see anything there. I also see the potential for another tragedy in calling off a relationship because of unfounded suspicion brought up by someone else and their truly tragic situation. Sure, the question can be posed, "why does she want to marry someone from the States?", but then, why is it that we must marry someone from China rather than finding a nice girl right here at home?
I'm sure it happens, but it also is not left to people in our situation. Many have married for the wrong reasons and it is not just to gain a green card.
For those who have seen thier relationship end for what ever reason I am truly sorry and I must be honest in saying that I hope I never know the feeling first hand. As for warning signs, I ask that everyone be carful. Any situation taken out of context can proove anything you make it out to be. If you look hard enough for conspiracy, you will find what you are looking for.

#38 Dennis143

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 01:15 AM

As for warning signs, I ask that everyone be careful. Any situation taken out of context can prove anything you make it out to be. If you look hard enough for conspiracy, you will find what you are looking for.

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Pyro dude - Jim, After reading other post by you, I feel that I can truly heed your words of wisdom. Having gone before us and having experienced all that we have yet to, I read your words of caution and I have to check myself not to be so overly cautious with my SO. I so much want to believe her, yet I cannot help but search for red flags.....and, in my search for these flags, do I not begin a witch hunt? I can only go forward with my love. I can only go forward with faith and trust. And, if it should turn out that I was a fool, then I will continue to try again....to search the world for the love of my life. What else can one do?

Edited by Dennis143, 11 September 2005 - 01:31 AM.


#39 Cerberus

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 07:49 AM

Well, yes in that case I would be outraged.  I guess one of the reasons everyone isn't furious and condemning this woman for being a visa digger is that it's not definate that this is what she is.  Many marriages fail, and cross cultural ones based on long distance relationships may be more fragile than others, especially in the beginning.  Just because the marriage will get the woman a visa doesn't mean that every woman who leaves her husband after coming to the US married him just for a visa.

Am I defending her?  No.  I think communication is the most important thing in a relationship, and that she would let the marriage break down to nothing, hide it from him all the while, slip off when his back was turned, and have a 3rd party give the news is reprehensible.  She has a lot of strikes against her.  I just hesitate to instantly assume visa fraud everytime one of these marriages ends.

I think what squeaky is going through is terrible.  It's what all of us fear most, whether we think it is likely to happen to us or not.  The sad fact is that some of our members reading right now who are engaged, in love, and blissfully happy, will be in the exact same position in a year, and none of them right now could concieve of the notion.  I feel bad for even saying it, but it is an inevitability.  Some of us will get burned, bad.

Some of these will be cases of the girl willingly using the guy for a greencard.  Some of these will be cases of the girl being unable to adjust to the US, or falling out of love when reality comes calling.  Some of these will end it and run back to China.  Some will probably keep it quiet until they get the green card, and then bolt either because they still want to live in the US, or are afraid to face going back to China a failure.  People in a deaperate and troubling situation often have to choose from shades of grey.  Going back to China would be more honest, but it might be a frightening concept.

We all need to realize these possibilities, but not be obsessed or frightened of them.  While a red flag is a red flag, no one needs to resort to spying or jumping to conclusions, etc, etc.  There are no fairy tales, and there are no happy endings, because nothing ever ends.  Life moves on always, and with it brings change for weal or woe.

I think squeak is better served by our support, condolences, and (if it becomes necessary) advice than by having us vent our rage about his wife, and run down someone who until just recently was the closest person to him. At least unless he initiates it.  If he says "That lying $#$#" then I'll say "Hell yeah!", otherwise I will remain politely silent about it.

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Very well stated and thought out. I also withold any judgement until I hear all sides. Unfortunately, I believe in Mark's and many other cases that one never really hears the entire story.

I would only add one final thing for the "burnee" and warning signs:

"caveat Ámptor" If you see a warning sign and not follow up discretely, then your problems are only beginning.

Unfortunately in Mark's case, I believe him to a very forthright person. I have seen cases such as his (I'm not sure about ChinaDave's) when the warning signs were so miniscule and a preemptive strike was so well planned, even the most astute would have a hard time predicting what would happen. I'm nobody's fool and have been around the block several times. I've seen so many of these cute tricks used, one would think that it would be hard put to get it passed me! WRONG! I have been nailed in the same fashion before. This is one of the reason that Yin and I DO NOT read 001 Forum. I have stated this case before and I still stand by that case.

I believe that Mark's might have been such a case. Hence, total blindside.

#40 chinadave2001

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 07:55 AM

Dave, Iíll tell you where my outrage lies, it lies with suggestions that we should all be outraged by a situation that we donít know much about to begin with. Iím not suggesting anything derogatory against Mark or anyone else who has or is suffering the pain and hurt that he now feels. Iíve met Mark and I wish I had the power to remove his pain. I donít know the whole story and donít need to, I just feel bad that he is suffering this situation.

Many would suggest that we be very careful with internet relationships, well the majority of the people I know on CFL are strictly internet relationships and I have only met a handful in person. So perhaps we should be wary of the people we meet here, because we only know what they write and nothing more.

While there are those who are looking for a green card there are also those looking for a housekeeper, cook and bed warmer, this is part of the world we live in. And there are many who are in search of the love of their life and I really believe that the large majority of those on CFL are in this search to find a lasting love and I wish these people all the best.

If I didnít believe this Iíd be a fool to continue with the process. We each search for our little piece of heaven on this earth and I hope that everyone finds it.

Have you considered that people who know the SOís who have departed might be outraged with the behavior of the crude and uncouth American that hurt their friend? Not that this is the case, but when looking from the other side many times you see the same reflection.

We are involved in a relationshipís with people from a different culture, with different values and goals in life. The question is what do WE do about this, do we demand that they discard every thing that makes up the fiber of their being or do we embrace the differences and seek to build a culture of our own that is only defined by the two people involved in the relationship? The answer to many lasting relationships can be found in this question. Many Americans are divorced these days and the differences and indifference to embrace these differences has much to do with failed marriages.

So if you wish to be outraged, be outraged with the shallow thinking that only says Iím right and everyone else is wrong, be angered by indifference toward anotherís feelings because it is not convenient, and be totally pissed at anyone who would seek to advance themselves by accusing others of wrong doing without knowing or caring about the real story. This statement applies to this thread as well as many of the major events which we are seeing in our country today.

Personally, Iím outraged with anyone who would believe I am so shallow as to listen to only one personís commentary about anything and expect me to jump on the band wagon, every commentary is slanted by one thing or another.

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Lee, this is exactly the kind of thing I would have writteen before my situation became what it did.
The fact that Ling is not returning to China but has run away with another speaks volumes as far as I am concerned.

OK, here's what really pisses me off: That these visa diggers come over here with anyone they can and hope for the best with that particular guy but if he doesn't treat them exactly as they believe they should be or are entitled to, then on to the next guy. Any sense of real love or committment is strictly a matter of "what's in it for me." Very pragmatic but it really sucks if you end up being the suckered.

The problem with CFL is that the site is designed and intended to promote these relationships and conversations such as this do not fit in that mission.

#41 Randy W

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 08:22 AM

CFL is Candle for Love, not Candle for Divorce. I think what you are hearing is that we all have a great deal of faith in our SO's.

While part of these stories is about immigration from China, to some degree, they are simply about divorce and misunderstanding.

We have relationships to build, and cannot do that if we are focused on the negative. While I appreciate stories like these and believe they should have a place in Candle, I will remain focused on what I have every belief that my relationship is.

Edited by Randy W, 11 September 2005 - 08:39 AM.


#42 tonado

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 08:39 AM

The blame is on the visa process for Chinese people. It takes too long and effort (money too) to get Chinese SOs over here. When the relationship doesn't work, it hurts both sides. If it is easier to bring the Chinese SOs over here (like 3 months versus a year or more), then people would date longer (make sure the relationship is a fit) before doing the paper work. There are too many people who know each other less than a year and begin the process. Long distance relationship is very tough. If you can, live in China for a year or two to find the right one.

Edited by ttlee_99, 11 September 2005 - 08:40 AM.


#43 egolessvegan

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 09:32 AM

The blame is on the visa process for Chinese people.  It takes too long and effort (money too) to get Chinese SOs over here.  When the relationship doesn't work, it hurts both sides.  If it is easier to bring the Chinese SOs over here (like 3 months versus a year or more), then people would date longer (make sure the relationship is a fit) before doing the paper work.  There are too many people who know each other less than a year and begin the process.  Long distance relationship is very tough.  If you can, live in China for a year or two to find the right one.

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Question. Why is it that most of the men on CFL are in complete denial when it comes to the intention of the Chinese woman? Several months ago I had a discussion with one of our higher profile members. He said to me, contrary to the way it might look, EVERY CHINESE WOMAN on the Internet has an AGENDA. That agenda is to get to the USA.Don't think otherwise. It is a fact. You can choose to believe this or not. Maybe we need to realize and accept this and move forward. Your SO did not pick you out for some magical reason. She saw as an opportunity to enhance her life.This is not a problem if she is willing to give as well as receive. This does not mean we cannot have a successful long term relationship. as long as there is balance from both parties. If we honestly look further into the matter, it can be said that we, the American men have agendas also(significantly younger, pretty, etc.) So it some respectrs it is a two way street.
When we defend the credibility of our Chinese SO we are really just trying to defend our own credibility. That is why in my opinion there are such intense discussions on topics such as the ones brought up by chinadave and bisqueaky.
As long as all of us are involved in our marriages for the right reasons, I see no reason to fear failure. I find no good reason to bash either the Chinese woman or the American man because all of us are individuals with different makeup.
Unfortunately there will not be 100% success rate in the intercultural marriages.
Best wishes to all
Ken

#44 chinadave2001

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 10:39 AM

The blame is on the visa process for Chinese people.  It takes too long and effort (money too) to get Chinese SOs over here.  When the relationship doesn't work, it hurts both sides.  If it is easier to bring the Chinese SOs over here (like 3 months versus a year or more), then people would date longer (make sure the relationship is a fit) before doing the paper work.  There are too many people who know each other less than a year and begin the process.  Long distance relationship is very tough.  If you can, live in China for a year or two to find the right one.

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One might also argue that it is exactly this kind of behavior that has made it so very difficult to get the visas in the first place. People who abuse the Visa process make it more difficult for everyone else.

#45 Cerberus

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 10:40 AM

Guess I need to put my two cents in here, too.

Before we collectively start condeming some one as a green card hunter, let's review a few facts. Ling is here on a K-3; she has no green card. Mark and Ling decided to run the I-130 through rather than file AOS and were just waiting for the interview to be set. Seems to me a green card hunter would wait a couple more months and get her 10 year green card before taking off.

Mark has said he doesn't have a clue why she left. I take that at face value. I really hate to see couples break up after all they go through to be together. But, it happens. It happens for a lot of reasons. It's no different than breakups between US couples; sometimes people are just too different to make a god enough relationship to remain together.

We haven't heard a peep from Ling and probably never will. My guess is, if we did, it would be a very different story. Personally, I really don't want to hear it because it is none of my business. I'm not a judge or jury and my opinion doesn't matter.

Mark and Ling both have my sympathy and support. I wish they could reconcile and reunite. If either seek my help or advice, I will give it. Otherwise, I'll keep it to myself and refrain from commenting on why the situation is where it is.

To whomever it was that posted this topic will be highly censored, think again. This thread can run a normal life cycle. The only thing that will be censored is something that violates the guidelines.

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Donahso,

D _ _n! I knew that there was a reson that you were in charge of this CFL ship.

All joking aside, very well put, lucid and concise. My respect and admiration to you, sir


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