We Need Your Collective Wisdom

[Mick]

As some of you know, Owen and I, along with our better halves, are planning a trip to the Consulate in GZ around the week of February 10. It is our sincere hope that we might be able to pry at least a plausible answer from these folks there as to what is going on. I must confess that over these past six months, not only have I grown frustrated and weary but I have, like many of you, grown increasingly confused and baffled as to what happened to us and, more importantly, what is happening now. I know much has been posted on the board regarding various scenarios in answer to these questions but I must confess, I am more confused than ever. That is why I am issuing an open call for each and every one of you to post your thoughts on exactly what is going on and who is to be held accountable, GZ, DoS, DoJ, or the Man in the Moon.

 

The reason I ask for your input is that I want to show up at GZ with as clear a head as possible. Now this clear headedness will require some concrete ideas about this mess that we find ourselves in. I am resolved to get some answers to these questions. To be brief, would you please post your thoughts on any or all of the following questions:

 

1. What originally happened to the Black Hole submissions that supposedly were initially submitted prior to the interviews in August, September? Why did they have to be resubmitted in November?

 

2. If they were in fact resubmitted in November, how many from this batch actually got cleared? Why did so many not receive clearance?

 

3. What agency(s) are, in your estimation, directly responsible for doing the name checks. ( I have heard so many stories I would appreciate concrete information gleaned from reliable sources).

 

4. Why did so many of the November resubmissions required another submission in January? Was this due to a general foul-up somewhere and, if so, where?

 

5. Who is actually deceiving us? DoS or GZ or both? GZ originally said all namechecks had been resubmitted by January 4th. Then they said they 'began' on January 4th. One member posted that the Response Team told him that all but seventeen cases had been resubmitted by January 10. Then I received a response that said our case was resubmitted on January 13. (DoS, by the way, has no record of this resubmittal). Since then, I have seen other members on the board post resubmittal dates of 1/14, 1/16, and now I see one from 1/22.

 

6. Based on number 5, how many of you think that the actual problem is that GZ is just being lethargic and many cases are sitting in a pile somewhere and being entered in a random fashion at a snail's pace?

 

7. How many are of the opinion that there is a "higher conspiracy" at work here and discerning the actual truth is impossible?

 

8. Is DoS actually aware of what is going on in GZ and vice-versa? Are they playing in the same ball park or are they on separate tracks.

 

I have a hundred other questions swirling around in my demented and over-taxed mind. What I would appeciate however, is that each of you would give some serious reflection as to what we have been through and are still going through. After having done this I would sincerely appreciate you doing two things:

 

A. Posting your beliefs, and any confirmable information, you might have regarding the answers to any of the above questions.

 

B. Raising other valid questions and offering your valued insights.

 

C. Make suggestions as to what tangible tactics Owen and I may employ when we get to GZ.

 

Also would appreciate any information on the specifics of how to obtain an appointment with Clayton Hayes, Mr. Norris, Linda Donahue or any other "higher up" in the GZ foodchain. I think talking to at least one of these folks is vital. Yet our first big task is to get past their frontline guards.

 

This will not be an easy trip for either Owen or myself. Especially Owen who is traveling all the way down from Shenyang. It is time consuming and expensive. Yet we are both willing to make this effort and hope it may yeild at least some result.

 

We have to go there armed with the proper questions, documentation, and a clear minded approach. That is why I am issuing this open call for all of your thoughts. By putting all this together, it will help me to formulate the right strategy and the right questions once we gain an audience. I urgently ask for your assistance, one and all, as I am as confused as anyone. Maybe more than most.

 

Hope to hear from as many of you as possible.

 

Owen, if you read this thread you might also want to toss in your requests for info, documents, and anything else you want to add. B)

[Ana]

mick,

 

the sad truth is that no one really has reliable info to give you. even when we receive 'reliable' info, it is difficult to know if it really is so. perhaps it might be better for people just to send you their opinions or what has been told to them, and that is proof enough of the lack of information and the elusive nature of the beast that confronts us.

 

1. here are rumors ive heard on the subject:

a. there were 2 systems; the black hole group went into the first system, but when they replaced it with the second system, we had to be resubmitted

b. our names 'slipped through the cracks'

c. the databases werent up yet

d. the name check runs over several, uncoordinated agencies

 

2. i havent heard of anyone getting clearance from nov. i know people got cleared in dec, but was that bc of a nov resubmission, or a later one?

 

3. the fbi, the cia

 

4.

a. our names, entered later, were behind people who interviewed in nov and dec. we had a collective breakdown, and they responded to it.

b. our names were sitting on a desk.

c. our names had never been entered to begin with.

d. the computer system was still a nightmare.

 

the only thing that is clear is that it is only because the black hole started to spew out light that we were noticed as a force in the galaxy.

 

5. i think there is more going on than we know about. i dont think they want to give us real information, honestly. why else would there be so many contradictions? why else do i feel like i am in a detective novel?

 

6. i dont think its laziness or ill will, i think the reason for our names sitting on a desk, or being resent a million times (whichever you prefer, the result is the same) is due to the 'real' information that we are not getting.

 

7. im not sure its a 'conspiracy,' but there are definitely major holes

 

8. they all know what the deal is, but they may have different interests or needs

 

as far as getting an appointment, maybe it would be best to try for a tues, because then you can always return on thurs if necessary. i say call the r. adams line every day and leave your name and phone number until the secretary hates you and gives you an appointment to get rid of you.

 

i would be perfectly happy if you said that you are coming on the behalf of everyone in the black hole group, many of whom know about this visit and have given you their open support.

 

i think you should write an email to r. adams and hays requesting an appointment and saying you are representing us. you could collect names from this website and post them in your email. think of this as a group letter gone live. add my name to your list!

 

and maybe it would be a good idea for as many people as possible to fax and email r. adams directly requesting that he pay attention to you guys and give you a serious interview on our behalf. what do you think of this idea?

[Mick]

Sounds great Ana and thanks for your well-formulated answers. Perhaps Owen and I could plan to arrive on say Monday, February 10. That would leave us Tuesday the 11th, and if need be, Thursday the 13th. My schedule is fairly flexible as I don't have to deal with the travel distance that Owen does. Of course, he and I will be in frequent contact to iron out the details.

 

The Consulate, to my understanding, will be closed from the 1st to the 5th. This makes appointment making difficult to say the least as it is already the 28th over here. Will try to reach one of the officials in GZ tomorrow.

 

Wish me luck. I haven't had much success in obtaining appointments in the past.

 

And BTW: Have a great Chinese New Year. I hope your adjustment to being back home is going well. B)

[Ana]

mick and owen:

 

Would you be willing to either post your full names or else pm them to people who would be willing to fax r. adams asking for an ear?

 

everyone else:

please help by contacting richard adams and saying you support mick and owen and would like him to give them attention!! if you are willing to do so, post here!!

 

does anyone know the best fax number to fax r. adams? gz has so many floating around that i hardly know which one to send it to.

[Mick]

No problemo:

 

My full name is Dwight Turner. (Mick is a nickname I picked up as a child, being the only Irish kid in a mostly Jewish neighborhood). It kind of stuck I guess as few people know me by my "given name". I was formally named after Eisenhower, the former President. My dad served under him in the Army in WWII.

 

As for Owen, best bet is to PM him and ask for the particulars.

 

Thanks again.

[skibum]

How about asking to see the communication that started all this. There must be a cable telling them to stop issuing visas about Sept 23rd. That way, we find out who to blame.

 

If the consulate can issue visas without the name check, which I suspect they can, ask them why not issue them for July and August interviewees now and finish the name check later. Then next month issue the Sept ones etc. Press for a solution of some kind. It used to be done with V Visas. How was the name check handled with applicants before July 30th?

 

Find out how the screw up happens with saying that a clearance is done when it is not. Try to see what the method is for entering clearance data.

 

As far as the other things you ask, I don't think anyone knows what is going on.

 

You might stress that many of us are veterans and some are heading for the Mid East to serve a govt that treats us like .... Not with compassion.

 

It has been over a week now since my Senator asked for an appointment for me with Harty and they have not heard back. How hard is it to make an appointment a week or ten days out?

[Mick]

No problemo:

 

My full name is Dwight Turner. (Mick is a nickname I picked up as a child, being the only Irish kid in a mostly Jewish neighborhood). It kind of stuck I guess as few people know me by my "given name". I was formally named after Eisenhower, the former President. My dad served under him in the Army in WWII.

 

As for Owen, best bet is to PM him and ask for the particulars.

 

Thanks again.

Any relation to Ted Turner, the billionaire? Are you in line? Remember me to your very rich relative and tell him I love him for him, not just his money!

No relation to Ted sorry to say, except being a long time Braves fan. Wish I was though. No matter how far down the line I would probably get something! B)

[JonInDenver]

i think one of the biggest problems is that DOS and GZ are one and the same. when we call DOS, they can only tell us what GZ has entered into the computer file.

 

we have no one/no where to call to see IF the namechecks have actually been sent anywhere. DOS just sees a note that is entered by GZ. i'm not saying that GZs note is an outright lie, but there is no other database to check it against.

 

when i talked to DOJ, they swore that they would not be involved int he namecheck - they would only do fingerprint checks.

 

a bigger conspiracy? a bigger problem? hard to say... it may all be wrapped up in GZ.

 

you should try to schedule your meeting will ALL of the counsulate higher-ups. after this long of a wait, and making this long of a trip you deserve to meet with ALL of them, not one or the other.

 

a couple hundred angry wives outside may not hurt your case either.

[Mick]

Ski:

 

You make some great points and thanks for your response. Yes, I would love to see a copy of the communication that started this whole mess to begin with. And I am a veteran myself and I sure intend to bring this up during our meeting, if we are able to get one that is. Not so sure how much weight this carries with these guys but I will most emphatically let them know I sweated and grunted for two years, and was drafted taboot.

[owenkrout]

Most people have already picked up that my name is R. Owen Krout from letters I have posted and because of my email address. I use the middle name nowdays because the first name is Roger and that is difficult for the Chinese to pronounce. Owen is easy.

 

Ana has already offered to put together an organized accounting of the canards that we have been told. I appreciate that effort on her part and am looking forward to receiving it.

 

Ana, I pretty much agree with your analysis and would say that most are probably better than rumors. On 1b I understand that their were actually two false starts, so the when the names were resubmitted the first time it was a waste as the system changed again immediately. That is why nothing shook loose until December.

 

I would also add that according to GZ as recently as last week, some names were never resubmitted. My wife's is one of them.

 

I have tried for two days running to get through to GZ, but without success. We are without mail delivery now for maybe up to two weeks, so I would like to be able to check a couple of times a week to see if they have sent out a packet. If they have I need to request the e-mailed pick-up notice that some people have been able to get. Can't do that though if I can never get through to them.

[Mick]

Whoops. Sorry Owen. I must have been composing my PM as you were posting this.

[owenkrout]

i think one of the biggest problems is that DOS and GZ are one and the same.  when we call DOS, they can only tell us what GZ has entered into the computer file.

 

we have no one/no where to call to see IF the namechecks have actually been sent anywhere.  DOS just sees a note that is entered by GZ.  i'm not saying that GZs note is an outright lie, but there is no other database to check it against.

 

when i talked to DOJ, they swore that they would not be involved int he namecheck - they would only do fingerprint checks.

 

a bigger conspiracy?  a bigger problem?  hard to say...  it may all be wrapped up in GZ.

 

you should try to schedule your meeting will ALL of the counsulate higher-ups.  after this long of a wait, and making this long of a trip you deserve to meet with ALL of them, not one or the other.

 

a couple hundred angry wives outside may not hurt your case either.

that is interesting Jon, since Senator Brownback's office indicated that they were told that my wife's case was currently in the namecheck procedure by "the FBI and some other agency". Last time I checked, the FBI was still under DOJ.

 

I know that there are going to be at least two angry wive's waiting outside, although my wife at least, because of reaching adulthood in the Cultural Revolution, is still very wary of openly questioning authority.

[Charlotte]

mick and owen:

 

Would you be willing to either post your full names or else pm them to people who would be willing to fax r. adams asking for an ear? 

 

everyone else:

please help by contacting richard adams and saying you support mick and owen and would like him to give them attention!!  if you are willing to do so, post here!!

 

does anyone know the best fax number to fax r. adams?  gz has so many floating around that i hardly know which one to send it to.

All the fax numbers on GZ website are good ones. Fax to all of them if you wish, only attn to the people you want it sent. They got forwarded. I am sure of it. I did it one time.

[Guest bruce]

Mack

GZ is not the main problem. They just take orders and are confused too. DOS commands GZ.

[Ana]

regardless of who is to blame, we should talk to and put pressure on every agency involved.